+++ Start of log: Sat Oct 08 16:51:06 UTC 2011 +++
(04:51:17)<tametick>konijn_: done
(04:51:49)<tametick>www.cardinalquest.com/cqbot/log.txt
(04:52:10)<tametick>gtg now
(04:55:20)<konijn_>cool!
(04:59:22)<konijn_>wow
(04:59:30)<konijn_>just wanted to find out one feature in cq
(04:59:40)<konijn_>suddenly 40 mins later I am on floor 8
(04:59:51)<konijn_>I checked out every floor
(04:59:54)<konijn_>got every item
(04:59:56)<konijn_>beat every monster
(05:00:03)<konijn_>and still the minotaur kills me in one blow
(05:00:06)<konijn_>ouchie ;]
(05:14:51)<jday>konijn: Ouch indeed!  Is there possibly a bug with that?
(05:15:19)<jday>I've still never seen the minotaur or the ending sequence; I've been busy enough that I haven't even skipped my way there.
(05:16:05)<jday>A spell of Collect Items!  Every item, even in chests, within a screen's distance floats to you.  It's not all that useful, but it would appeal to people.
(05:31:47)<jday>Also, konijn, would you agree that the game is playing better now?  There's been a lot of basic psychological polish to do.
(05:40:42)<jday>Ooh!  A Spell of Tunneling, and the tunneled cells 'get better' with time.
(05:42:18)<jday>I was also thinking that some enemies could spew out Hearts while you fight them.  It could be a "anyone could do that" thing, or it could be a particular enemy type (something new that lives on all the levels).
(06:12:19)<konijn_>hmm
(06:12:27)<konijn_>it does play better I think
(06:12:30)<konijn_>as to the Minotaur
(06:12:36)<konijn_>I think he needs to be toned down
(06:12:50)<konijn_>he is also at least 3 times as fast as me
(06:13:13)<konijn_>was
(06:13:15)<konijn_>dead now ;)
(06:13:24)<konijn_>as to collect items, yeah , why not
(06:13:38)<konijn_>the coin/heart falling thing I am not so sure about
(06:13:49)<konijn_>the graphics and text are fairly grim
(06:14:08)<konijn_>to have coins and hearts fall out could make it too gimmicky ?
(06:14:17)<konijn_>just thinking out loud
(06:18:19)<jday>They are good thoughts.  I wonder if we can adapt the same basic stimuli to something less gimmicky.
(06:18:51)<jday>Because we do need immediate feedback for more player actions.  This is not a deep game, which means it has to be a shiny one.  (In some sense of shiny.)
(06:19:10)<jday>So the game just sort of suddenly gets hard with the Minotaur?
(06:31:18)<jday>Oh, that's right!  I was wondering whether you ever got the _Keep exploring!_ spawn when you thought you shouldn't have.
(06:31:35)<jday>(And whether you ever got it at all.)
(07:13:03)<jday>Woo!  I'm floating!
(08:29:11)<jday>And a new, even cooler bug!  I've turned into a slinky!
(08:52:29)<tametick>jday: in the new graphics there are piles of gold
(08:52:32)<tametick>i was thinking,
(08:53:01)<tametick>right now it is quite common that you get gold a lot of the time by virture of getting items that aren't better than what you have
(08:53:21)<tametick>i think if we drop gold pile half the time instead of items it would feel more special to get an item
(08:53:28)<tametick>and practically it would be about the same
(08:54:35)<jday>Would it be ok if we make drops animate like they're bouncing out or something?
(08:54:44)<jday>Pow!  Knocked out your gold tooth!
(08:55:33)<tametick>sure
(10:19:46)<jday>Debugging people is much harder than debugging code.
(10:30:39)<konijn_>;)
(10:31:23)<konijn_>so far I only got the keep exploring when the dungeon generator has like 4 rooms connected to each other in a row with no other rooms connected, during the treck back I get that message
(10:31:25)<konijn_>which is fair
(10:31:30)<konijn_>or
(10:31:43)<konijn_>on level 7 when I wanted to farm xp
(10:31:46)<konijn_>that didnt work out really
(10:36:03)<jday>Yeah.  Those guys don't give you any xp.
(10:45:41)<konijn_>that
(10:45:43)<konijn_>plus
(10:46:01)<konijn_>they are such a drain on resources that even if they did give xp, it wouldnt be worth it in my mind
(10:46:08)<jday>New XBall effect pushed.  At some point I might hack at it some more to make it keep animating as it flies (wouldn't be hard except that I have to restructure it a bit).
(10:46:15)<jday>konijn: Good to know!]
(10:47:19)<konijn_>effects pulled
(10:47:21)<konijn_>hmmm, lets see
(10:48:53)<konijn_>looks nice
(10:49:25)<jday>Your spells also charge when you die now.
(11:04:53)<tametick>hi
(11:04:57)<tametick>sorry was afk
(11:05:11)<tametick>i saw you talked about the minotaur being too hard 
(11:05:23)<tametick>i think the real problem is that all other enemies before him are too easy
(11:06:17)<tametick>i've been thinking, about how to measure the "level" of a monster
(11:07:06)<tametick>i guess we can average the stats, and extrapolate a vitality stat from the hp & dungeon floor (assuming 1 char level per floor)
(11:07:23)<tametick>hp = (1+level)*vit
(11:07:39)<tametick>so: vit = hp/(1+floor)
(11:07:56)<tametick>plus a certain bonus for spells i guess
(11:08:34)<tametick>it's only an approximation, but we can plot the difficulty level of monsters that way
(11:09:22)<tametick>it will give us an idea on how to smooth it out
(11:09:59)<tametick>i.e. by how much we need to strengthen which monsters for it to be less of a surprise while meeting the minotauers 
(11:10:09)<tametick>what do you think?
(11:11:21)<konijn_>not sure I agree ;)
(11:11:33)<konijn_>the werewolves are a challenge as well
(11:11:48)<konijn_>I think spiders and succubi need to be amped up
(11:11:58)<tametick>if they are we'd expect to see that in the graph 
(11:12:56)<tametick>i also thinking of giving *every* monster a spell
(11:13:02)<tametick>(a different spell of course)
(11:13:15)<tametick>it's pretty easy and would make them more different from one another
(11:13:20)<tametick>most of the cast spell already 
(11:13:23)<tametick>*spells
(11:13:51)<konijn_>where are the boss stats actually ?
(11:14:38)<konijn_>        BANDIT    = { c="b", attack=2 , defense=2 , speed=3 , spirit=3 , hp=range(2,3)   , damage=range(1,1)   , xp=5   },         KOBOLD    = { c="k", attack=4 , defense=3 , speed=3 , spirit=3 , hp=range(1,4)   , damage=range(1,3)   , xp=10  },         SUCCUBI   = { c="d", attack=3 , defense=4 , speed=4 , spirit=4 , hp=range(2,8)   , damage=range(2,4)   , xp=25 , spells = { ENFEEBLE_MONSTER } },         SPIDER    = { c="S", attack=5 , def
(11:14:42)<konijn_>crud 
(11:14:43)<tametick>all stats are in MobFactory iirc
(11:14:49)<konijn_>that didnt show well
(11:14:58)<konijn_>so minotaur stats are the boss stats right
(11:15:03)<tametick>yes
(11:15:04)<konijn_>given that they have the berserk skill..
(11:15:07)<tametick>there is no "boss"
(11:15:17)<tametick>you just see the animation after you kill the last minotauer
(11:15:22)<konijn_>ah
(11:15:29)<tametick>it doesn't matter which one that happens to be
(11:15:37)<konijn_>minotaurs for one move 3 spaces when I move one
(11:15:52)<konijn_>but their speed is 7, and werewolf is 8
(11:15:54)<tametick>they berserk themselves 
(11:15:58)<konijn_>so that could be a bug ?
(11:16:01)<konijn_>ah
(11:16:03)<konijn_>speed +3
(11:16:09)<tametick>while berserk their speed is 10
(11:16:11)<tametick>right
(11:17:53)<konijn_>still, arent we then going the wrong way ?
(11:18:09)<tametick>which would that be?
(11:18:12)<konijn_>if we straighten the other monsters, than players will just not reach the minotaur
(11:18:20)<konijn_>well, if a player cleans every level like I did
(11:18:36)<konijn_>well then, the player should have a shot at killing the minotaur
(11:18:41)<konijn_>I was one shotted by that thing
(11:18:58)<konijn_>He moved 3 ( well, maybe 2 squares ) and killed me
(11:19:02)<konijn_>in 1 move
(11:19:22)<konijn_>what does it matter if we make other monster tougher if the end game still seems to be unbeatable
(11:19:28)<tametick>yeah we might end up making them a bit weaker
(11:19:39)<tametick>many people have beaten the game
(11:19:43)<tametick>so it's not unbeatable 
(11:19:44)<konijn_>really
(11:19:51)<konijn_>with warrior ?
(11:20:00)<tametick>in fact i've heard many more complaints that the game is too easy than it is too hard
(11:20:06)<tametick>with all characters 
(11:20:12)<konijn_>but do those people beat the game ?
(11:20:38)<konijn_>there's that type that looses patience 'because the game is easy' and die before the end boss
(11:20:49)<konijn_>is it same people that say its easy that beat the bosses ?
(11:20:58)<konijn_>in that case, I suck ;P
(11:21:12)<tametick>making the boss a bit easier doesn't mean we can make the rest harder
(11:21:35)<tametick>also, i think it might actually make it easier to defeat the boss if the earlier monster are harder,
(11:21:43)<konijn_>if we give more xp, perhaps
(11:21:47)<tametick>as you learn to be careful and use your gear/potions/spells
(11:22:20)<tametick>if the whole game is straight forward hack & slash you don't expect to need to be careful 
(11:22:39)<tametick>also, it
(11:22:56)<tametick>it's not imperative that 100% of player beat the game 
(11:23:03)<tametick>i never beat most roguelikes i played
(11:24:37)<tametick>anyway
(11:24:41)<tametick>i'm heading to bed
(11:24:54)<tametick>will give this more thought tomorrow and see about plotting that graph
(11:24:58)<konijn_>sure
(11:25:02)<konijn_>see you tomorow
(11:25:13)<tametick>as i said it's only about giving us insight about the difficulty curve 
(11:26:10)<tametick>i leave you with enterprise dog
(11:26:13)<tametick>http://www.deadbillplatypus.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/star-trek-dog2.jpg
(11:26:23)<tametick>good night
(11:31:46)<konijn_>hmm
(11:32:08)<konijn_>is is possible that the cursor fix has somehow impacted the help and the menu button ?
(11:32:23)<konijn_>they will also light up/work when the mouse cursor is on the left hand side of the button
(11:52:31)<konijn_>I mean only
(11:52:33)<konijn_>not also
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/09 +++
(12:45:03)<jday>Just narrowly missed that.  I went and took a nap.  I've tired the last few evenings.
(12:45:39)<jday>I've noticed that too, konijn.  Although only sometimes, and not necessarily for both menus.  So there might be something special going on with them that I'll look at.
(12:46:40)<jday>I don't quite think tametick quite has the right formulation for computing monster level.  What we want is to figure out the monster response to player level gain, which is not quite the same.
(12:47:09)<jday>In Brogue, there's a function that simulates a fight (no movement, but speed rules); we could do something like that.
(01:58:33)<konijn_>greetings
(02:11:24)<tametick>hey
(02:12:09)<tametick>the fallout from the cq-free-day ended up bringing in about $550
(02:12:27)<tametick>was just looking at the different payment processors 
(02:20:40)<konijn_>that's pretty good
(02:21:45)<tametick>yep
(02:21:50)<tametick>even better was the publicity 
(05:43:13)<jday>tametick: I was mentioning yesterday that we could pretty easily write a function that would pit two monsters together (assuming that they don't move) and see what happens.  That can give a very nice measure of relative level.
(06:09:46)<tametick>jday: possible 
(06:10:03)<tametick>jday: but the relationship is not linear 
(06:10:13)<tametick>they can be better or worse in different way
(06:10:46)<tametick>but yeah we can do that. but easier to just average their stats
(06:12:30)<jday>Is there any reason to think that the average of stats is a good metric?  It really comes down to how many hits they can land while the player is landing hits on them.
(06:15:32)<tametick>well attack is equivalent to defense 
(06:15:51)<tametick>speed isn't that far from them either i'd say
(06:16:20)<tametick>maybe vitality & spirit aren't quite the same, but they are all more or less as important 
(06:16:55)<tametick>how many hits the can land is directly related to their stats. it's not like the have charisma stats or something 
(06:17:16)<tametick>attack, defense, speed, vitality & spirit
(06:17:47)<tametick>spirit i guess is the least important one, but still a creature with more of it can cast their spell more often
(06:17:57)<tametick>i also think we should give all creatures a spell
(06:18:09)<tametick>right now i think more than half of them have one
(06:20:17)<tametick>the only thing that isn't part of the stats in the damage, but we can work that in somehow
(06:20:46)<tametick>since for the player it depends on the weapon, but for monsters it's intrinsic 
(06:31:16)<konijn_>I think we can derive from the dungeon depth what an average player would have found as weapon by that time ?
(06:35:42)<tametick>yep. both hp & damage can be adjusted by dungeon floor the monster spawns in
(06:35:56)<tametick>1 floor is more or less 1 character level
(06:36:46)<tametick>it doesn't have to be accurate, just needs to give us a rough estimate of the difficulty curve 
(06:45:21)<jday>Pretty nasty headache this morning.  Getting better though.  Should be a productive day.
(06:46:09)<jday>And except for a test run of Brogue, my time is all slated for cq.
(06:49:19)<jday>See if I can't work out why we're caching so much, if you haven't already.
(06:49:46)<jday>The XBall stuff got me used to Actuator and to BitmapData, and XBall and map changes have got me used to Graphics in general, so things are good.
(06:51:09)<jday>Do you have a sense yet whether the slowdown as a level progresses is just a memory issue or whether we're, say, drawing or modifying too much?
(06:53:39)<tametick>no i haven't worked on the weekend
(06:53:49)<tametick>sounds good :)
(06:54:00)<tametick>i think it's just memory usage
(09:30:13)<konijn_>damn hopping bug, it kills me that its so hard to replicate
(09:30:16)<konijn_>and then suddenly, boom
(09:30:26)<konijn_>there I am floating together with a bandit
(09:37:33)<tametick>:O
(09:37:36)<tametick>what happened?
(09:37:42)<tametick>anything specific you did?
(09:37:49)<tametick>any stacktrace?
(10:12:54)<jday>konijn: It's basically got to be something with bobbing, right?  I mean, that's the motion it makes.
(10:14:15)<jday>I had a similar bug once.  I've never heard anyone else mention it, and it didn't cause me any real trouble -- I turned into a slinky.  I would bob a little too high and the pixels below me didn't clear out.
(10:29:21)<konijn_>never seen the slinky effect
(10:29:31)<konijn_>no stacktrace
(10:29:42)<konijn_>it's odd
(10:29:52)<konijn_>I was north
(10:29:56)<konijn_>one bandit was south
(10:30:05)<konijn_>one bandit was south west
(10:30:12)<konijn_>the south west one and myself were bobbing
(10:30:34)<konijn_>Paranoid theory, could it be that mobs are wall sliding ?
(10:59:20)<konijn_>also
(10:59:22)<konijn_>sometimes
(10:59:26)<konijn_>I hit the right key once
(10:59:29)<konijn_>and I kill two monsters
(10:59:35)<konijn_>'t is weird
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/10 +++
(01:02:25)<konijn_>split or not split
(01:02:31)<konijn_>so not split
(01:38:26)<jday>Ok.  I'm in cq mode now.
(01:39:35)<jday>One thing we've got going right now is that there's no real delay after attacking or opening doors, and the old code for cancelling actions either never worked completely or has been nerfed by my changes.
(01:39:59)<jday>So that's on my list of things I'm ready to try to fix, one way or another.
(01:40:27)<jday>Monsters don't wall slide; I've thought several times about letting them do it, but since they're usually using A* it doesn't help much.
(09:45:22)<tametick>jday: i think your death animation doesn't remove the old player's sprite
(09:45:33)<tametick>you can see it while walking, it still bobs the old sprites too
(10:05:38)<tametick>jday: did you read http://gingerbinger.com/2011/09/as3-garbage-collection-with-closures/ ? your var player = this upon death is never being cleared. that's exactly the kind of things we need to careful about. *don't* use closures unless you really have to. especially not implicitly created ones
(12:35:16)<tametick>fixed both issues, they weren't very serious. gonna try to fix the bouncing effect.  i suspect it's created by null pointers in teh functions that acutate uses during updates.
(02:08:23)<tametick>think i might have fixed the bounce issue. still investigating 
(02:21:51)<tametick>hehe, jday: are the enemies throwing themselves when they cast on the player? :)
(02:24:50)<tametick>woot
(02:24:57)<tametick>i think the bouncing bug is history 
(02:25:13)<tametick>now all that remains (big-bugs wise) is memory usage
(03:26:20)<konijn__>greetings tametick
(03:26:28)<konijn__>thanks for cq_golem
(03:26:28)<tametick>sup
(03:26:35)<konijn__>now I know you fixed the bouncing
(03:26:39)<tametick>cool :(
(03:26:41)<tametick>i mena
(03:26:42)<tametick>:)
(03:26:43)<konijn__>going to check out bitbucket right now
(03:26:48)<tametick>i hope so, anyway!
(03:27:02)<tametick>hard to reproduce so i can't tell for sure 
(03:27:11)<tametick>it almost never happens to me
(03:27:26)<tametick>did you say yesterday it happens to you on a regular basis? or am i misremembering?
(03:27:49)<tametick>btw i want to solve the 2 caching issues today and give testers 1.1c
(03:27:56)<tametick>and if it works give that to kongregate
(03:54:29)<jday>tametick: var player = this; isn't a closure, though.  It's only a closure if you have an internal function that you then pass elsewhere.  Which, granted, I can't be certain without checking that I didn't do.
(03:55:06)<jday>The only reason for that was that I had moved some code from elsewhere (where it was referring to player externally) to inside of CqPlayer, and thought it was more readable the way it already was.
(03:56:09)<jday>As for casting enemies -- thanks for reminding me!  That's on my list, but I thought it was fixed.  Somehow, the turn after casting, they get to move all the way to you.
(03:57:12)<jday>Didn't get much time to work yesterday, though.  I was looking forward to that.
(03:58:47)<konijn__>totally off topic, but could we set the topic to the logs ?
(03:58:54)<konijn__>the feet are just very disturbing ;]
(03:59:08)<jday>We can't unless we all leave and come back.
(03:59:14)<jday>No one has ops.
(04:31:49)<tametick>jday: wasn't talking about that, the implicit closure was created in the onComplete(...)
(04:32:32)<jday>deathEffectComplete isn't in the same scope, though.
(04:32:33)<tametick>but i fixed it
(04:32:41)<tametick>hold on let me see
(04:33:07)<jday>And if I'm wrong and the gc is worse than I thought, it will be very, very useful to know.
(04:33:40)<tametick>btw i disabled caching the effects
(04:34:10)<tametick>and now it seems we remain on ~90mb every level start (when going to the next level or starting a new game it comes back to ~90mb)
(04:34:20)<tametick>max is a bit over 100mb, don't remember exactly 
(04:34:26)<tametick>which is a huge improvment 
(04:34:50)<tametick>there is still some other leak, but it's relatively minor an is cleared every time you start a new game it seems
(04:35:03)<tametick>so >90% of the leak problem has been resolve imo
(04:35:24)<tametick>anyway, jday: look at https://bitbucket.org/ido.yehieli/cardinal-quest-haxe/changeset/8abe7714bd9c
(04:35:31)<tametick>line 1240.
(04:35:36)<tametick>https://bitbucket.org/ido.yehieli/cardinal-quest-haxe/changeset/8abe7714bd9c#chg_src/cq/CqActor.hx_oldline1240
(04:35:50)<tametick>that conditional inside onComplete creates a closure imo
(04:36:18)<jday>Strange semantics.  It should evaluate before calling it.
(04:36:56)<jday>Thanks for pointing out Actuate.timer, btw.  I hadn't come across that and was wanting it.
(04:37:11)<tametick>maybe it is
(04:37:13)<tametick>i am not sure it creates a closure
(04:37:26)<tametick>actually now that i think about it you might be right
(04:37:34)<jday>(In this case, I just kept the no-op update because that's what was there before.)
(04:37:53)<tametick>yeah it was just alpha blending the sprite
(04:38:05)<tametick>caused some problem with the player so i disabled it for both
(04:38:40)<tametick>moving to my other pc, will check out this chan later today. I'm gonna commit and push now and give testers a 1.1c debug build
(04:38:55)<jday>I had cranked the player delay to more than twice the monster delay (at death), which I figured justified keeping them separate.  I'll go ahead and work that back into the current structure.
(04:39:09)<tametick>ok
(04:39:12)<jday>I've been wanting to merge the two fov methods -- almost identical, but subtly different.  Huge chunks of duplication.
(04:39:22)<tametick>k
(04:39:41)<tametick>a lot of that code came from previous games 
(04:39:46)<tametick>sometimes different games
(04:40:02)<tametick>some have it has been with me for years and was ported from c to java to js to haxe
(04:41:00)<tametick>actually the c origins of a lot of the "generic" code made it a lot easier to port to new languages
(04:41:14)<tametick>as c generally doesn't have many features that higher level languages don't
(04:41:51)<tametick>it's kind of the lowest common denominator for many languages 
(05:22:21)<tametick>ok, got 14 testers testing the current version
(05:31:48)<tametick>http://blog.tametick.com/2011/10/cardinal-quest-11c-has-been-sent-to.html
(06:37:22)<jday>ido: Do you mind if I just make the test if (lives >= 0) instead of threading the respawn argument through all of those?  I made some changes that let me use the argument to control the animation.
(06:41:06)<tametick>sure
(06:41:13)<tametick>but check that it wors
(06:41:24)<tametick>you can't trust the timing in that particular case 
(06:41:31)<tametick>it's not synchronous 
(06:41:50)<tametick>sometimes you'll get lives before the -- and sometimes after
(06:41:55)<tametick>that's why i passed the parameter 
(06:42:25)<tametick>render() and update() are also not synchronous 
(06:42:44)<tametick>that's why there are many if(bla==null) checks in rendering functions 
(06:42:56)<tametick>an object might have been destroyed and not yet removed from the rendering queue
(06:43:32)<tametick>basically render tries to tick at 30fps if it can
(06:43:38)<tametick>update ticks as fast as possible 
(06:43:54)<tametick>reacting to key presses etc
(06:44:27)<tametick>and if render ticks at less than 30fps (because the computer is too slow) it adjusts to the game's speed
(06:44:36)<tametick>so it won't run slower but just choppier 
(06:47:07)<tametick>jday: forwarded you a report from a tester
(06:47:35)<tametick>5 issues, 1 is the lives which is corrected and the other 4 all from your changes
(06:47:41)<tametick>(i think)
(06:47:51)<jday>Even if they aren't, I'll be happy to address them.
(06:48:58)<jday>And I've pushed my changes.  I went down a long corridor and came back.  It finally told me to "Head for the stairs!" right as I came to them.
(06:50:36)<tametick>great :)
(06:51:02)<tametick>this is gearing up towards a great release 
(06:51:22)<jday>There are a couple of numbers I'll tweak for my next push, but it's feeling pretty good.  As for the guy not liking wall sliding -- there are a couple of cases where it feels like the wrong thing to do, and I can probably clamp down on those.
(06:52:18)<tametick>is it sliding different than before?
(06:52:35)<tametick>it's not a huge deal anyway. only if you feel like it
(06:52:49)<jday>It didn't have any sliding for keyboard before.  Now it slides more or less like Jeff Lait's games do.
(06:54:01)<tametick>it didn't?
(06:54:06)<jday>If you want to, point out that it actually isn't sliding to the right, it's sliding towards the nearest opening in the direction he pushed -- see if he finds that as distasteful as how he took it.
(06:54:09)<tametick>i thought i added sliding at one point...
(06:54:23)<jday>There was mouse sliding, and it worked quite well.
(06:54:43)<jday>I'll double check.  The magic of source control!
(06:54:50)<tametick>i don't think you should take what he said that seriously 
(06:54:59)<tametick>oh
(06:55:14)<tametick>i mostly play with the mouse, and kb support was added rather late
(06:55:21)<tametick>could be that there wasn't sliding for kb
(06:58:24)<tametick>pushed another one of w1's bugs
(06:58:28)<tametick>*the fix for
(07:02:12)<jday>Thanks for fixing that.  I thought it would return an empty array in that case -- indeed, that's what the old code seemed to be counting on.
(07:02:29)<jday>But I wonder -- how can an aware monster ever not have a path?  It's not like they block on other monsters.
(07:02:35)<konijn__>I like the kb sliding a lot
(07:02:41)<jday>Ah!  Treasure chests!
(07:03:18)<jday>konijn trumps beta tester.
(07:04:08)<tametick>jday: it was for the mirror image
(07:04:34)<tametick>it AStar-ed one more turn after it expired 
(07:04:37)<tametick>is my guess
(07:18:30)<tametick>jday: another tester just said he played for a long while without noticing any bugs and no slowdowns (said it was slowing down on him before, probably due to leaks)
(07:19:23)<jday>Beautiful!
(07:44:07)<jday>New game over bug; my fault; one moment --
(07:47:14)<tametick>in the version on hg or just locally on your machine?
(07:55:41)<tametick>same "double-step" report from another tester
(08:06:28)<jday>I'll address the double-step as soon as I'm done with targeting.
(08:08:39)<jday>Do you think it's possible to start loading GameState while we're still showing the class text scroller?  That would eliminate an unseemly pause.
(08:09:22)<jday>Another similar question -- is it necessary to have splash and menu state separate?  I'd like to bring up the menu about a quarter of a second earlier.
(08:16:39)<jday>Ben is wrong.  It explicitly checks whether the stairs have been uncovered.
(08:16:57)<jday>He found them and didn't notice, or -- something.  I'll see if there's something wrong with what it's doing, but -- it seems odd.
(08:18:23)<konijn__>or
(08:18:25)<tametick>jday: in level 8 there are no steps
(08:18:29)<konijn__>yeah
(08:18:31)<tametick>it's the last level
(08:18:39)<tametick>it is supposed to play the animation thingie
(08:18:40)<konijn__>so maybe he could not find all minotaurs
(08:18:42)<tametick>with the protal
(08:18:49)<tametick>OR
(08:18:52)<konijn__>all you need is an unconnected room with a minotaur stuck in
(08:19:00)<tametick>maybe the monster spawning code broke it!
(08:19:06)<jday>I should disable it completely there, anyway.
(08:19:25)<konijn__>and just put the three monsters ?
(08:19:25)<jday>Minotaurs are harsh enough without being punished for sitting around while fighting them.
(08:19:27)<tametick>in the last floor you mean?
(08:19:30)<jday>Yeah.
(08:19:32)<tametick>yeah
(08:19:43)<konijn__>yeah
(08:19:45)<tametick>konijn__: thee?
(08:19:46)<konijn__>sorry, had to do that
(08:19:52)<tametick>YEAH
(08:20:15)<konijn__>I am konijn with all underscores
(08:20:22)<konijn__>or any underscores really
(08:20:43)<jday>So why does it think that you've seen the stairs on the last level, when there are none?  Mysteries, mysteries.
(08:21:12)<konijn__>Is the stair a separate object that does not get cleared ?
(08:21:35)<konijn__>was the player near the location of the stairs on level 7 ?
(08:23:09)<tametick>jday: why what/who thinks?
(08:23:48)<jday>tametick: Every time you uncover a cell, it checks whether that cell is the stairs.  If you haven't seen the stairs it tells you to keep exploring.
(08:24:08)<jday>If you've seen the stairs, then it checks whether you've explored 80% of the level to decide what to tell you.
(08:27:01)<tametick>aha
(08:27:13)<tametick>he may have played a version from a couple of hours ago
(08:27:18)<tametick>before you changed that code
(08:28:19)<jday>Fixed the double-move bug.  The check for resumeActingTime was in the wrong place.
(08:28:28)<tametick>cool
(08:47:59)<jday>When you're supposed to target an empty tile, is it ok if you select a tile that isn't presently seen?  How about one that has never been seen?
(08:48:08)<jday>(I presume it should be no in both cases.  More fun, probably.)
(08:48:19)<tametick>bbl
(08:48:22)<tametick>roguelike radio
(08:48:42)<jday>rlr sounds like fun.
(08:48:55)<konijn__>it does indeed
(09:00:26)<jday>Ok.  You're no longer allowed to target cells you can't presently see.
(09:01:03)<jday>I think we should differentiate monsters more by behavior.  It wouldn't be hard, and it fits the arcade theme.
(10:26:54)<konijn__>see you guys later
(10:27:04)<konijn__>as an FYI , air build ipa is now 75 megs...
(10:27:26)<konijn__>that's a flash production build
(10:27:31)<konijn__>but ios debug build
(10:27:38)<konijn__>so it should still get lower for the real things
(10:27:40)<konijn__>*thing
(10:43:26)<tametick>back
(10:44:17)<tametick>jday: so what's our status now?
(10:44:31)<tametick>is the last level thingie working now?
(10:44:43)<tametick>even just disabling it for level 8 is fine
(10:45:11)<tametick>because then we pretty much have "cardinal quest classic" bagged and  i can start working on the next game and keep cq part time
(10:45:33)<jday>Part of the problem there was that the text was actually backwards; that was a trivial fix.
(10:46:07)<jday>If you pull, you'll see a few other little fixes.  I'm going to make it check for enemies with > 0 xp on level 8.
(10:46:16)<jday>Since I think that's more sporting.
(10:46:57)<jday>And I think I might know why you sometimes walk backwards (have you noticed that?)
(10:47:32)<tametick>i didn't
(10:47:43)<tametick>and yeah adding the check for enemies with 0 xp is fine
(10:47:58)<tametick>it's kind of a convoluted check, or at least not a very easy one to understand
(10:48:35)<tametick>basically at the remove mob from level function it iterates over the other existing mobs and it's kinda strange and hard to understand in the first time why it's doing that 
(10:49:04)<tametick>but just getting it to work and making the game winnable again is fine for me. i really want to give it to kongregate already 
(10:49:17)<tametick>we had a really good episode btw
(10:52:00)<jday>I've got that check figured out, now that I know what it does.  I'll add a comment as soon as I'm sure nothing's broken and check it in.
(10:52:11)<tametick>awesome :)
(10:52:39)<tametick>i'm gonna update the link i sent to testers with the current tip from hg and again when i wake up in about 8 hours
(10:53:12)<jday>Five extra minutes and I can see if a simple idea to improve sliding will work.
(10:53:19)<tametick>i am really encoraged by the appearant lack of issues testers are having with crashes and slow downs!
(10:53:22)<jday>This stuff is looking fine though, so I'm pushing it.
(10:53:27)<tametick>cool
(11:15:55)<jday>Well, lastTilePos is doing something weird and I'm not quite sure what.  My improvement to sliding isn't coming out as fast as I hoped.
(11:16:10)<jday>I'll crack it within a few minutes, but if you're waiting to go to sleep you might as well.
(11:20:48)<tametick>yeah the sliding isn't that critical, it's not something that totally breaks the game
(11:21:13)<tametick>as long as the game is winnable again i can show it to kong tomorrow 
(11:22:43)<jday>I think I did figure it out, though.
(11:22:49)<jday>Looks like lastTile was getting trampled.
(11:23:29)<jday>Testing the changes now --
(11:25:37)<tametick>i'll take a look tomorrow 
(11:25:39)<tametick>see ya
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/11 +++
(06:44:30)<jday>Morning, tametick.
(06:44:44)<jday>Things are going pretty great on my current changes -- I'll be ready to push them soon.
(06:45:41)<jday>And I'm very glad you're on before I'm off, because a few have gameplay implications, and I'd rather revert them if you don't like them than make you do it.
(06:46:19)<jday>A few neutral changes, first -- I redistributed the load of initialization for GameState, so it doesn't feel like there's a delay after the intro text.
(06:46:35)<jday>At the moment I'm making it so you can click anywhere inside the space of the selector box on the character creation screen.
(06:46:47)<jday>(That's actually done, but I'm cleaning up after myself now.)
(06:51:43)<jday>On to describing the novelties -- basically, I went through and tried to find little subtle ways to differentiate mobs that actually look different.
(06:52:34)<jday>I know you said that was something you considered; it'll be really easy to rip out if you don't want it or don't like the differentiation I've considered.
(06:53:28)<tametick>hey
(06:54:22)<tametick>sounds good
(06:54:45)<tametick>also, consider that the debug version is much slower than when compiled in release mode
(06:54:59)<tametick>and running with the profiler on is again slower
(06:55:19)<tametick>in release mode even on my netbook i don't get any noticeable delay 
(06:55:39)<tametick>but put it all in and worse case scenario we'll revert 
(06:55:48)<jday>There are two outstanding issues, one of which I'll be able to handle -- the menu and help button sprites don't quite align with their bounding boxes (I think I can fix that just fine), and items in the item dialog sometimes stay on the screen after it slides back up.
(06:56:12)<jday>Since I've never done anything to the item dialog and since we have that as a bug report, I'm presuming I didn't cause it.
(06:56:51)<jday>It actually took away a fireball that I had equipped, once!
(06:57:03)<jday>(I mean, it would come back down when I brought the inventory back, but I couldn't use it.)
(06:59:53)<jday>My cat is really clingy right now.
(07:00:04)<tametick>no you didn't cause either
(07:00:56)<tametick>and neither of them is critical, which is why it wasn't urgent to fix
(07:01:06)<tametick>but would be nice to fix em up :)
(07:01:18)<tametick>a slightly more serious issue -
(07:02:00)<tametick>casting a second mirror image while the first one is still alive prevents the first one from expiring 
(07:02:30)<tametick>i will work on that one first thing today after having breakfast, walking the dog, etc
(07:02:38)<tametick>should be pretty easy to fix
(07:03:12)<tametick>also another null pointer exception bug report from a tester (at the end of the game), should also be trivial to fix
(07:06:44)<jday>The magic mirror one is another I was noticing, and I might know where to fix it.  Although I think the inventory bug is critical, since it robs you of skill slots at random.
(07:06:55)<jday>The button position bug is genuinely unimportant, yeah.
(07:07:40)<jday>Players are always most forgiving of bugs that stand to help them.
(07:08:08)<jday>Oh, right!  One other change -- text now pops up when you pick up items.  It feels more concrete to me, like something is happening.
(07:09:29)<jday>Oh!  And the targeting icon is now colored like it was supposed to be (took some serious hackwork) and I tweened it for movement.
(07:10:18)<jday>And you start the game with all your spells charged; I figure that equalizes games where enemies start in view with games where they don't.
(07:10:36)<jday>I'd be up for charging spells when you go down stairs, but then reveal map would be overpowered.
(07:11:26)<tametick>yeah keep it as it is imo
(07:12:34)<jday>So check out CqMobFactory if you have a moment so I can start changing it to your liking.
(07:13:05)<tametick>brb need to reset  wifi router
(07:13:09)<tametick>just go for it jday 
(07:13:25)<tametick>it's really easy for me to revert commits in hg if needed
(07:13:45)<jday>I mean, there're already some changes in there.  But yeah, that's quite true.
(07:33:15)<jday>Ah, I understand the menu/help bug now.  It was plaguing me when I was adding the targeting colors, too!  When scaled, the center of the thing stays put, but it gets detected by its new width and old left.
(07:54:28)<jday>Ok, fixed that.
(08:09:01)<tametick>cool :)
(08:45:45)<jday>Yeah, I've been wanting to make esc cancel targeting for some time.
(08:50:44)<tametick>should be easy 
(09:30:02)<jday>Just pushed an absurdly ambitious change with a tiny goal -- polishing up the timing a bit on the opening screen.
(09:31:14)<tametick>to fit with the gate opening sound?
(09:31:35)<tametick>i hope you are testing these timing changes with the release setting once in a while
(09:31:50)<tametick>since it might be different if the game runs too slow on your computer 
(09:32:06)<tametick>(i mean the release/debug combobox in FD)
(09:35:02)<tametick>jday, konijn_: i started a google doc for the bugs, feel free to enter stuff you want to keep track of there
(09:38:53)<jday>Except for the Magic Mirror bug and the ghosted Inventory bug, I think I've dispatched pretty much every issue I knew about.
(09:39:09)<tametick>cool
(09:39:18)<tametick>the inv bug you mean the one in the google doc?
(09:39:38)<jday>I'm better they're all interrelated.
(09:39:48)<jday>Make sure you look over the stuff that I've checked in; I know you will, but there's a lot of it today.
(09:39:49)<tametick>might bne
(09:39:55)<tametick>ok
(09:39:57)<tametick>will do
(09:40:21)<tametick>btw you have the new graphics right?
(09:40:32)<jday>And my monster tweaks are really just guidelines -- you'll see that in each block, there are additional tests and there's extra customization.  Anything you don't like, just cut.
(09:40:52)<jday>I have them by email, yes.  I haven't endeavored to add them to the game.
(09:40:56)<tametick>in addition to the new monsters/items/etc he also filled up the bunch of monster types that only had 3 variants instead of 4
(09:41:08)<tametick>we can use that in "cq classic" too
(09:41:15)<tametick>or you know what, nevermind
(09:41:21)<jday>I really do want to add gold.  If you or konijn add those resources, I'll be happy to play with them tomorrow.
(09:41:26)<tametick>i rather keep all new content to cq deluxe 
(09:41:46)<jday>That sounds like a config setting.
(09:41:49)<tametick>let's do that after kong gets the current version
(09:42:23)<tametick>yeah but it's not just adding a bunch of content at the end
(09:42:37)<tametick>we want to keep the game's length the same more or less and add a bunch of content in the middle
(09:42:41)<tametick>to spice things up
(09:42:47)<tametick>more class, more loot, more monsters, more spells
(09:42:49)<tametick>etc
(09:42:56)<tametick>i was thinking about the 3 new classes
(09:43:23)<tametick>we can unlock each the moment you pass dungeon floor 6 which one of the characters
(09:43:43)<jday>Totally agree about keeping length constant; in fact, shortening it just a bit (or better discouraging completionism) makes sense to me.
(09:43:44)<tametick>wizard unlocks cleric, thief unlocks ranger & fighter unlock puglist 
(09:43:51)<tametick>*pugilist  
(09:44:22)<tametick>well i would guesstimate that the current length is about 20 minute to win a session
(09:44:29)<tametick>which is a good length imo
(09:44:41)<tametick>but we can think of ways to discourage clearing a level
(09:45:00)<tametick>another option is making the levels smaller
(09:45:06)<tametick>they are 32x32 right now
(09:45:18)<tametick>which i thought would be tiny but turns up to be quite large
(09:45:48)<tametick>we can experiment with decreasing that size, should be a matter of changing one parameter in Configuration 
(09:46:11)<tametick>but let's do that afterwards. i want to freeze "Cardinal Quest Classic"
(09:46:32)<tametick>it's already a pretty good game and i want to encourage people to upgrade to Deluxe 
(09:46:52)<tametick>(free upgrade for everyone who bought the game, with classic becoming the new demo)
(09:47:30)<jday>Very nice idea.  That makes deluxe into dlc, effectively.
(09:47:40)<jday>People don't feel ripped off playing the demo, but there's more to get.
(09:47:41)<tametick>yep i guess so
(09:47:46)<tametick>right
(09:48:03)<tametick>and 150k units registered prove the power of free
(09:48:19)<tametick>before that there were a few thousands who bought the game
(09:48:28)<tametick>or got it for free
(09:48:30)<tametick>no, even less
(09:48:36)<tametick>a few hundreds 
(09:48:48)<tametick>who actually payed for it
(09:49:08)<tametick>and i think the current 3 level demo really ends long before the game becomes really fun
(09:49:24)<jday>(I wonder, logistically, what a level editor might look like.  That's not something you'd normally see in a roguelike, but it gets people involved.)
(09:49:29)<tametick>the solution to which would also of course be making the early game more interesting 
(09:49:38)<tametick>can use Ogmo
(09:49:46)<tametick>it's compatible with our level structure 
(09:49:56)<tametick>http://ogmoeditor.com/
(09:50:26)<tametick>can be used for making special levels, like doomrl's
(09:50:34)<jday>I think a lot of traditional puzzle elements would work wonders for the early game.  Stuff that fits perfectly into an arcadey feel -- simple switch puzzles and that kind of thing.
(09:50:49)<jday>This switch opens this door, but it closes that door!  Oh no, whatever will I do?
(09:51:03)<tametick>yeah
(09:51:06)<tametick>key and locks
(09:51:15)<jday>Really easy with bsp.
(09:51:21)<tametick>lever open doors/secret passage 
(09:51:32)<tametick>teleporting traps
(09:51:35)<tametick>traps in general
(09:51:43)<tametick>there's a ton we can add
(09:51:54)<tametick>i've been playing 100 rogues recently and it's really fun
(09:52:01)<tametick>it is also extremely similar fo cq
(09:52:03)<tametick>*to
(09:52:15)<tametick>i was talking to kieth (the main guy behind it)
(09:52:40)<jday>(Highly recommend less trad traps -- plate + mechanism traps, where they're never on the same cell.  Boulder traps, monster release traps, etc.)
(09:52:43)<tametick>we were both surprised how similar the two games ended up being, considering neither of us played the other's game until long after release 
(09:53:02)<tametick>yeah we can figure that out
(09:53:09)<tametick>but first there are lower hanging fruits
(09:53:12)<tametick>the new content for example
(09:53:23)<tametick>oh and one more thing 
(09:53:59)<jday>More bouncing.  Items, gold, lots of stuff needs to _bounce_.  Makes it feel physical and valuable.
(09:53:59)<tametick>i was thinking now that'd we're adding more spells we can tweak the spells drops according to the player's class
(09:54:12)<tametick>yeah that's an easy change
(09:54:42)<jday>Most stuff that really affects people is easy, or at least looks small once it's done.
(09:55:13)<tametick>i think if the class you choose influences the spells you get (just probabilities, not absolutes) it would help make them all feel more different 
(09:55:24)<tametick>right now they kinda feel similar when you get similar spells
(09:55:27)<tametick>right
(09:55:32)<jday>Adjusting spell drops based on class is good; another possibility (a bad one maybe?) is to have them rely on different stats.
(09:55:42)<tametick>hrm
(09:55:46)<tametick>i don't know
(09:56:01)<tametick>i kinda like the simplicity of the spirit points system 
(09:56:13)<tametick>it's easy to understand
(09:56:21)<jday>In a bigger game, making spirit/stealth/anger would probably be the right thing to do.
(09:56:50)<tametick>you mean it would just become a flavor of the stat's description?
(09:57:02)<tametick>or actually a different stat that charges spells differently? 
(09:57:17)<jday>I meant an actual different stat, but flavoring it could actually be kind of cute.
(09:57:34)<tametick>hrm
(09:57:42)<tametick>maybe but let's put that in the long term plan
(09:57:47)<tametick>need to think about it a bit
(09:57:54)<jday>Actually, you know, Tim's suggestion (Tim, right?) of cancelling invisibility when you cast other spells might be on the right track in general.
(09:58:08)<tametick>but i am tending towards not radically changing the basic system of the game and keeping these changes maybe for cq2
(09:58:17)<tametick>yeah i agree
(09:58:24)<tametick>we can add that to the bugs list
(09:58:25)<jday>Making spells interact with each other in ways that are unfavorable to out-of-class play, added to tweaking the probabilities, could work wonders.
(09:58:43)<jday>e.g., berserk could cut spirit while it's going.
(09:59:00)<tametick>hrm
(09:59:06)<tametick>need to think about that 
(09:59:19)<tametick>i am kind of afraid of making the base too complicated
(09:59:29)<jday>True, again.
(09:59:40)<tametick>too complicated for platyers to intuitively understand without needing to read a manual
(10:03:10)<jday>You proposed earlier giving every monster a spell.  I don't think that will help.  But I think there's another easy way to make monsters different -- we can give them slightly different behaviors.
(10:03:27)<jday>That kind of thing is often very noticeable.
(10:03:30)<tametick>well giving them a spell is the easy way to add flavor 
(10:03:35)<tametick>doesn't have to be the only way
(10:03:44)<tametick>but i was mostly saying that to make balancing them easier 
(10:04:18)<tametick>since once we do that we can look at the stats as the only differentiators when comparing one monster to another
(10:04:30)<tametick>yeah i agree about different AI for different monsters
(10:04:34)<tametick>shouldn't be too hard to do
(10:05:08)<tametick>also as i said if you need new graphics beyond the ones i emailed you and konijn_ just say so & i'll have the artist make some
(10:05:26)<tametick>but i rather use the one we have first, or at least decide which of them we want to use
(10:05:50)<tametick>i think we might be able to use some of the new artist's (ben's) sprites but not all of it
(10:06:10)<tametick>most of his monsters aren't that compatible with stephen's style
(10:06:20)<tametick>but some are and look good
(10:07:21)<tametick>it's generally not an issue asking Stephen to do new tiles, he is really quick and can probably get you like a dozen traps or other objects in the same day i ask him for it
(10:07:53)<jday>I'll start thinking in that direction, then.
(10:08:20)<tametick>yeah but first thing we'll need to sift through the existing new graphics and decide what we want and what not
(10:08:23)<tametick>and actually use them
(10:08:41)<tametick>we will probably use all of stephens new sprites/tiles and maybe 1/3 of ben's
(10:08:46)<jday>Bits of loot, trap and puzzle components (those really go together), more dungeon features -- those are the main things I see wanting more of.
(10:09:35)<jday>I wonder, with cq's structure, whether it's really worth having such a steep level gain.  (xp gain, yes.  level gain, no.)  It would be nice to have a few rarish enemies who show up throughout the dungeon.
(10:09:58)<jday>e.g., bats, rats, spirits, whatever.
(10:11:25)<tametick>yeah
(10:11:31)<tametick>we can use the new sprites for those
(10:12:15)<tametick>there are already bat's in ben's sprite sheet and those are some of the ones i want to use from his graphics 
(10:12:19)<tametick>*bats
(10:13:56)<tametick>puzzle elements are really tough, it's really easy for them to become tedious/boring memorization exercises
(10:14:27)<tametick>"oh a lever trap! i need to go 3 steps to the left, 1 to the north, put rock here..."
(10:17:24)<jday>I'm going to sleep.  If anything of mine turns out to have been broken, explain why.  Be sure to check my tweaked monsters before releasing anything to anyone.
(10:18:02)<jday>I'll see if I dream about ways to keep puzzles fun.
(10:20:08)<tametick>hehe
(10:20:12)<tametick>sleep tight :)
(10:20:28)<tametick>and don't worry, if something you did breaks i'll just revert it locally 
(10:21:05)<tametick>and releasing the game to testers isn't that big of a deal, they expect it to be a bit broken
(10:21:10)<tametick>that's why they're testers!
(12:29:13)<konijn_>back for a short moment
(12:29:24)<konijn_>should be at work soonish where I can check out all the conversation
(12:29:32)<tametick>hey
(12:29:34)<tametick>k
(01:31:57)<tametick>sup?
(01:32:04)<tametick>things have been going pretty well
(01:32:19)<tametick>i'm going to fix a few easy bugs and then pack up the web version for further testing
(03:10:51)<konijn__>wow
(03:10:52)<konijn__>back 
(03:10:53)<konijn__>again
(03:10:59)<konijn__>so I read all the talk
(03:11:02)<konijn__>going to check out the bugs doc
(03:11:56)<tametick>there are 2 small bugs remaining there
(03:12:00)<tametick>if you wish to tackle them
(03:12:06)<tametick>should be pretty straight forward
(03:13:31)<tametick>brb
(03:25:27)<tametick>hrm
(03:25:42)<tametick>found the main culprit of the bob bug: it's a focus bug in the browser
(03:26:43)<konijn__>in the browser ?
(03:27:05)<konijn__>I always experience it in the flashplayer outside the browser though
(03:38:06)<konijn__>ouch
(03:38:14)<konijn__>swapped out the armor spell for the heal spell
(03:38:32)<konijn__>clicking or keyboarding the spell in that slot still activates the ... armor spell
(03:39:22)<konijn__>but the swapped in magic mirror spell works fine
(03:39:28)<konijn__>mysterious, mysterious
(04:15:03)<tametick>ah yes
(04:15:11)<tametick>i think that's one of the bugs the testers found out
(04:23:41)<jday_win>Morning.
(04:24:49)<jday_win>My changes survived the night?  Hooray!
(04:27:31)<tametick>\o/
(04:27:40)<tametick>i'm fighting with some focus bug
(04:27:46)<tametick>that only happens in browsers
(04:27:50)<tametick>it's really annoying
(05:41:44)<konijn__>I disagree with your tweet tametick
(05:41:52)<konijn__>I can get the bobbing in the player
(05:41:53)<tametick>?
(05:41:58)<konijn__>one out of 10 or so
(05:42:01)<konijn__>start new level 
(05:42:10)<konijn__>hit keys in one direction
(05:42:18)<konijn__>click on different window
(05:42:20)<konijn__>come back
(05:42:22)<konijn__>bobbing!
(05:42:29)<tametick>:(
(05:42:34)<konijn__>in the player
(05:42:36)<konijn__>not in browser
(05:42:51)<tametick>i think the solution is to remove it from render() entirely 
(05:43:17)<jday_win>And put it in update?
(05:44:20)<tametick>yes
(05:44:42)<tametick>i think the problem comes from the two not being synchronized 
(05:45:23)<jday_win>Plausible.  But I'm worried -- if the game isn't accepting input anymore at that point, and the bobbing code doesn't seem to cause that directly, mightn't it just be a symptom of something else?
(05:45:35)<jday_win>And if it's a symptom, moving it will just turn it into a freeze.
(05:45:55)<jday_win>Have you tried removing render to see?
(05:46:23)<konijn__>well
(05:46:35)<konijn__>with some persistance we can test whether it would freeze
(06:00:53)<tametick>jday_win: it is still rendering
(06:01:00)<tametick>when paused it just isn't updating
(06:01:07)<tametick>render is always called
(06:02:22)<jday_win>Right.  And when you float, the game is totally broken.
(06:02:37)<jday_win>So if you're not floating -- the game will still, presumably, be totally broken.
(06:03:13)<tametick>no it now works fine after the floating
(06:03:26)<tametick>you can un-float
(06:03:48)<tametick>there is some bigger thing at play here but i don't think it's something easy to find
(06:03:56)<tametick>probably easier to work around in the short term
(06:10:34)<tametick>you are right konijn_
(06:10:41)<tametick>it now happened to me even in the projector
(06:10:50)<tametick>funny it wasn't happening very often till now
(06:29:17)<konijn__>okay
(06:29:24)<konijn__>could it be happening more
(06:29:33)<konijn__>because the player can start out with monsters in the same room
(06:30:00)<konijn__>I am starting to see a pattern where it is the damage number from a dead monster going up that might be the culprit
(06:30:59)<konijn__>nah
(06:31:02)<konijn__>forget it
(06:31:22)<tametick>konijn__: can you try really hard to make it happen here: http://www.cardinalquest.com/for_greg/
(06:31:29)<tametick>i think it might be fixed
(06:31:36)<tametick>but not sure since it pretty much never happens to me
(06:31:41)<tametick>but it didn't before eitehr 
(06:32:09)<konijn__>took less than 5 seconds to make it bob in that link
(06:32:27)<tametick>really?
(06:32:29)<tametick>what did you do
(06:32:30)<konijn__>yup
(06:32:39)<konijn__>but!
(06:32:45)<jday_win>(Testing my magic mirror fix.)
(06:32:46)<konijn__>when I tab a few more tims
(06:32:50)<konijn__>times
(06:32:54)<konijn__>the game returns to normal again
(06:33:12)<tametick>what did you do to cause it
(06:33:58)<tametick>also, if you ever visited that link before did you clear your cache?
(06:34:40)<konijn__>never been on the for_Greg link
(06:34:49)<konijn__>I just hit down the arrow key and switch tabs with the mouse
(06:35:08)<konijn__>now I cant do it any more
(06:36:19)<tametick>ah there it is
(06:36:21)<tametick>yes
(06:36:33)<tametick>it happens only when you move with the keys but switch focus with the mouse
(06:36:40)<tametick>i was switching focus with alt tab the whole tile
(06:36:43)<tametick>*time
(06:36:48)<jday_win>(My fix almost works, but I need to run an errand.)
(06:37:00)<tametick>which fix?
(06:37:02)<tametick>for the bobing?
(06:37:29)<konijn__>nah , he was mentioning magic mirror
(06:37:50)<konijn__>as a minor side
(06:38:04)<konijn__>probably , if the player dies, the timer should be reset for the 'keep exploring'
(06:38:05)<tametick>ah ok
(06:38:14)<tametick>yeah
(06:38:16)<konijn__>it's kinda rough to die and then immediately have people chasing you for being late
(06:38:27)<tametick>right
(06:41:54)<jday_win>konijn: It does reset, or it's supposed to.
(06:42:12)<jday_win>respawn takes care of that; it even pushed guys away who are already there, so I'll figure out what's up with that.
(06:42:34)<jday_win>(And it recharges your spells!  I've been thinking about giving you a potion of healing, too.)
(06:43:04)<tametick>aha!
(06:43:13)<tametick>might have found the solution to the bobbing problem
(06:43:34)<tametick>jday_win: you have become soft
(06:47:33)<tametick>you know the easiest would just be to remove pausing altogether 
(06:48:41)<konijn__>hmmm
(06:48:42)<konijn__>yeah
(06:48:47)<konijn__>though
(06:48:49)<konijn__>or
(06:48:54)<konijn__>just pause the music
(06:49:09)<konijn__>because switching focus really is the new 'Boss Button'
(06:49:29)<tametick>right
(06:49:34)<tametick>was just thinking that myself
(06:53:47)<tametick>ok
(06:54:22)<tametick>just pushed it, if it ever happens to you again let me know please
(08:37:18)<konijn__>yup
(08:39:17)<tametick>is that confirming that you'd tell me or confirming it just happened again?
(08:40:24)<tametick>anyway latest push should have fixed most of the focus issues
(08:40:25)<konijn__>I'll tell you
(08:40:32)<tametick>still have a music bug
(08:40:35)<tametick>ok cool
(08:40:44)<tametick>will fix the music tomorrow, should be pretty easy to do
(08:41:11)<konijn__>so
(08:41:19)<konijn__>after I cast invis
(08:41:29)<konijn__>monsters still seem to be able to hit me if they are next to me
(08:41:33)<konijn__>normal or bug ?
(08:41:43)<tametick>normal
(08:41:47)<tametick>they just move randomly
(08:41:55)<tametick>1 in 4 times they will randomly move to you
(08:42:17)<tametick>oh while you are at it
(08:42:31)<tametick>can you see backstab is working? i think it might have been removed at some point
(08:43:14)<tametick>(if attacking while invisible, first attack causes x2 damage and drops invisiblity. maybe to a TextEffect "Back-stab! ")
(08:43:42)<tametick>can even be 3x damage cause shadow walk is otherwise pretty lame
(08:48:47)<konijn__>hmmm
(08:49:15)<konijn__>I think shadow walk is lame if invis stops
(08:49:43)<konijn__>as a player, I'd rather have 1x damage and stay hidden
(08:50:06)<tametick>it doesn't make much sense tho
(08:50:14)<tametick>it's not a star trek style cloaking device 
(08:50:27)<tametick>it's hiding in the shadows and being sneaky 
(08:50:45)<tametick>(of course the real reason is "that's what d&d does")
(08:51:09)<jday_win>Back now.  Bought the wife a new violin.
(08:51:16)<tametick>nice
(08:51:56)<tametick>jday_win: my girlfriend was once afraid that the lock on our door isn't good enough to live the violin in our (then my) apartment 
(08:52:26)<jday_win>I'm just not paranoid enough for this world.
(08:52:35)<tametick>i just thought it was amusing that she'd think a thief would even know a violin is something expensive let alone break into the apartment just to steal it
(08:52:52)<tametick>also, *leave
(08:53:40)<tametick>it's like  "omg i can't leave my collection of c64 accessories here! it's not safe!!"
(08:59:05)<tametick>:O
(08:59:46)<jday_win>Daisy chain enough of those puppies together and you can build quite the supercomputer.
(09:00:55)<jday_win>konijn: So it tracks how many times you've seen each cell.  On respawn, it will henceforth reset that down to 1 (leaving 0 0, of course) so you'll count as backtracking.
(09:04:12)<jday_win>tametick: Had a very simple thought for differentiating classes!  Fighters could have three spell slots, thieves four, and mages five.
(09:04:31)<tametick>hrm
(09:04:40)<tametick>need to think it over
(09:04:48)<tametick>but not a bad idea
(09:05:01)<tametick>would need to rebalanced the chars a bit
(09:05:09)<tametick>also remember we soon have 6 chars
(09:05:58)<jday_win>(I love how the magic mirror guy walks backwards.)
(09:06:19)<tametick>oops
(09:06:21)<tametick>bug
(09:06:24)<jday_win>It's good, though.
(09:06:37)<jday_win>So I'll add a comment and make it not-a-bug.
(09:06:48)<tametick>what's up with star trek actors and not aging? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Takei
(09:06:51)<tametick>that guy is 74
(09:07:35)<konijn__>asian dudes
(09:07:41)<jday_win>The same basic balance could apply to the three new guys -- each could have the same slots as their unlocker.  Or you could give the pugilist 2, the rogue 5, and the cleric 8 or something dodgy like that.  (More spells, less recharge.  Or go the other way and give the cleric fewer but absurd spirit.)
(09:07:44)<konijn__>its totally unfair
(09:07:56)<konijn__>I was thinking for berserker
(09:08:00)<konijn__>can cast no spells
(09:08:07)<konijn__>but cannot be targeted by spells either
(09:08:21)<jday_win>Or maybe has a built in berserk spell, just because people will wonder why he doesn't have it.  Can't switch it out, though.
(09:08:32)<tametick>nope. Stewart is 71,. shat 80. both look the same as they did in the 80s
(09:09:14)<tametick>yeah need to consider it
(09:09:22)<tametick>i like it more the more i think about it
(09:10:00)<tametick>but i think gaming the probability distribution of generated spells would be the main thing
(09:10:38)<tametick>that would definitely make them feel more unique and is a pleasantly simple solution
(09:11:07)<jday_win>(Is there any reason an effect on a mob wouldn't time out?  Just offhand before I go tilting at windmills?)
(09:11:19)<tametick>it should time out
(09:11:35)<tametick>it's exactly the same logic as the player's timeouts
(09:27:54)<jday_win>Ah.  I missed the bit where the timeout was applied.  See, I made the magic_mirror effect be applied to the mirror instead of the player.
(09:30:56)<tametick>yeah that one got me too a little while ago
(09:31:30)<tametick>eventually we should pimp up cardinalquest.com a bit
(09:31:44)<tametick>maybe have a blog on it where each of us could post on once in a while
(09:31:55)<tametick>cq musings, what's coming in the next version, etc
(09:33:55)<jday_win>That would be nice, yeah.
(09:34:25)<tametick>we could also use the wiki and bug tracker we have on bitbucket
(09:38:02)<konijn__>it would seem better than the shared google doc
(09:38:51)<tametick>well at some point it becomes better
(09:38:57)<tametick>doc is less overhead 
(09:39:11)<tametick>if it's just an immediate list of goals for the next day or 2
(09:44:26)<konijn__>agreed, KISS
(09:51:43)<konijn__>so
(09:51:50)<konijn__>I just killed the corona folder
(09:51:57)<konijn__>but I am planning to import an air-ios folder
(09:52:00)<konijn__>for the ios build
(09:52:07)<konijn__>any reasons I should not do this ?
(10:06:26)<jday_win>tametick: In case this is familiar, I'm removing a monster from the map during cqlevel.tick and the cell to which it would have been moving ends up occupied.
(10:08:37)<jday_win>Worked it out.
(10:14:19)<jday_win>Ok, so I've pushed all that.  I'll make the shadow walking changes unless konijn_ is working on that.
(10:32:45)<tametick>jday_win: sorry was afk
(10:33:07)<tametick>seeing as he logged out i'd say it's safe to assume he isn't?
(10:33:32)<jday_win>__ logged out, but _ is here.
(10:33:53)<tametick>i think that's from his other computer 
(10:34:19)<tametick>he hasn't talked on that one in a long while
(10:34:44)<tametick>he is also away on gtalk
(10:36:58)<tametick>so now you can't have double mirror images right?
(10:38:48)<tametick>oh wait, that wasn't the fix you were talking about
(10:45:01)<konijn_>back
(10:45:15)<konijn_>jday : go ahead
(10:48:30)<jday_win>(Magic mirror lasts too long.)
(10:48:45)<jday_win>tametick: You can have as many as you please.  They'll all go away correctly.
(10:49:32)<jday_win>It lasts much longer than most other spell effects, and it's wildly powerful -- fight in a hallway, stave off enemies with a mirror, and shoot fire at them over it.
(10:49:40)<tametick>jday_win: ah, cool
(10:49:59)<tametick>yeah it's also one of my favorites 
(10:50:13)<tametick>together with polymorph and charm monster 
(10:50:25)<jday_win>I think it should last somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 as long as it does.
(10:50:33)<tametick>go for it
(11:04:07)<tametick>heading to bed
(11:53:45)<jday_win>Man.  What's up with haxel and not updating alpha?
(11:58:14)<konijn_>yeah, I dont think Ido will use haxel again for his next game
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/12 +++
(01:22:14)<jday_win>I actually figured out a workaround to that one.
(01:22:23)<jday_win>Now if you use setAlpha on any CqActor, it'll work.
(01:22:38)<jday_win>And I'm making it so monsters can use all spell types.
(01:22:49)<jday_win>Almost done.  They can even use magic mirror and invisibility and teleport!
(01:22:57)<jday_win>(Reveal map, however -- that wouldn't do much good.)
(01:25:12)<jday_win>I've made it so effects stack right; not sure about buffs yet.
(01:25:28)<jday_win>So if you cast invisible while you're invisible, you don't 'reappear' twice anymore.
(01:28:32)<jday_win>"An invisible bandit appears!"
(01:40:14)<jday_win>I've fixed the phantom health bar bug, too.
(01:49:54)<jday_win>Invisible enemies are actually a lot of fun.
(01:50:04)<jday_win>Now, who should cast it...
(02:08:10)<konijn_>;]
(02:28:28)<konijn_>so
(02:28:42)<konijn_>my iOS build works now builds completely
(02:28:50)<konijn_>works finally with my provisioning profile and developer cert
(02:28:57)<konijn_>has a proper icon
(02:29:13)<konijn_>intro music plays
(02:29:19)<konijn_>but level music does not (???)
(02:29:24)<konijn_>walkking around works
(02:29:49)<konijn_>but you have to tap waaaay to long to move around ( that has to be improved, I am reading blogs now to find answers for this )
(02:29:53)<konijn_>the spells and potions dont work
(02:29:57)<konijn_>the text appears
(02:30:03)<konijn_>but tapping them works like 1 in 5
(02:31:02)<konijn_>poof animation is about slow after killing mobs
(02:32:12)<konijn_>the map button though works perfectly, go figure ..
(02:32:18)<konijn_>I uploaded air-ios
(02:32:21)<konijn_>it has the ipa 
(02:32:25)<konijn_>and the matching profile
(02:32:29)<konijn_>if you know someone with an ipad
(02:32:38)<konijn_>and a mac
(02:33:02)<konijn_>I can tell how to upload a provision profile to the ipad and the ipa file
(02:34:32)<konijn_>and you can see it with your own eyes
(02:34:46)<konijn_>I am also thinking of adding some more debug features for myself
(02:35:01)<konijn_>I think the mouse coordinates somehow get screwed up
(02:36:05)<konijn_>oh, final IPA size : 13 Megs, pretty perfect
(02:50:21)<konijn_>note to self : http://help.adobe.com/en_US/air/reference/html/flash/system/System.html#freeMemory
(02:58:33)<konijn_>als note to self : http://help.adobe.com/en_US/FlashPlatform/reference/actionscript/3/flash/events/TouchEvent.html
(04:08:06)<jday_win>Ah, I was quite focused!
(04:09:04)<jday_win>I think I should probably start figuring out how to get this running on Android.
(04:09:27)<jday_win>I've been too busy just improving the game.
(04:45:39)<jday_win>konijn_: You around?  It's getting late, your time.
(11:28:48)<tametick>jday_win: you forgot to add a file for CqMobFactory, game doesn't compile
(11:35:20)<tametick>jday_win: I've temporarily readded it to my local copy, hopefully you didn't change it much. will revert when you're back online
(12:02:41)<konijn_>greetings
(12:02:49)<konijn_>I was thinking that the blog idea might be good
(12:03:16)<konijn_>I've been wanting to blog about this, but didnt feel like starting yet another blog
(12:07:07)<tametick>yeah we can do an overhaul of the website and plug in some easy blogging software in it
(12:07:18)<tametick>i use blogger for tametick.com
(12:07:32)<tametick>it's quite easy to use but there are probably better solutions these days
(12:08:47)<konijn_>eh
(12:08:53)<konijn_>I like blogger actually
(12:08:59)<konijn_>my family blog is on there
(12:09:41)<tametick>doesn't bother me 
(12:09:43)<tametick>we can use it
(12:09:56)<tametick>i already use it anyway so that would be the easiest for me
(12:10:37)<konijn_>great
(12:11:23)<tametick>i'm gonna get that music/focus bug and then do a new build of 1.1c for a couple of new testers 
(12:14:48)<tametick>arg that was a stupid mistake
(12:14:55)<tametick>pushing fix now, building new version
(12:15:01)<tametick>hopefully this is the final 1.1c
(12:15:24)<tametick>btw good job on getting it to run on the ipad :) does it look good? how far is it from being release-quality?
(12:15:59)<tametick>air just stretches the 640x480 screen automatically to 1024x768, right? same as it does on the desktop
(12:16:12)<tametick>in that case we can do iphone 4 pretty easy too
(12:16:26)<tametick>would just look a bit ugly till we improve the gui code
(12:16:38)<tametick>since it will change aspects ratios a bit
(12:25:01)<konijn_>Hmmm
(12:25:07)<konijn_>I ran it first in iPhone Mode
(12:25:12)<konijn_>I wonder
(12:25:32)<konijn_>I think I could I build a + package that supports both
(12:25:52)<konijn_>the one thing I will do at work ( should go in a few mins ) is change in hxlstate the add event
(12:26:11)<konijn_>I will intercept mousedown and replace with touchevent if config.mobile is true
(12:26:31)<konijn_>the other thing I would like to do is turn off mouse cursor on mobile completely
(12:26:41)<konijn_>as to the graphics
(12:26:43)<konijn_>it is ok
(12:26:47)<konijn_>not awesome, but ok
(12:27:12)<konijn_>it might just be because the dpi on ipad is lower than on the screen
(12:27:19)<konijn_>I'll see if I can send a screenshot
(12:27:35)<konijn_>the intro menu / burning minotaur/ choose class looks perfect
(12:27:41)<konijn_>the main game seems a little too pixelated
(12:33:30)<konijn_>the app icon is beatiful
(12:33:49)<konijn_>I mean seriously, it stands out in a great way
(12:35:23)<tametick>:)
(12:35:24)<tametick>cool
(12:35:28)<konijn_>note to self, get rid of stand-alone version notice on ios
(12:35:40)<tametick>ah yes
(12:35:56)<tametick>wait, i think it is remove if you set Configuration.standAlone= true
(12:36:14)<tametick>as well as a couple other air specific things like a quit menu option
(12:36:23)<tametick>that closes the app (don't need that in a web game)
(12:36:37)<tametick>so you just need to flip that bool and you'll be fine
(12:37:15)<tametick>ok credit screen bug fixed. i think we now have no blocking bugs for the flash version
(12:37:23)<konijn_>No quit option allowed on ios
(12:37:27)<konijn_>but I can fix that
(12:37:31)<tametick>huh?
(12:37:34)<konijn_>yeah
(12:37:35)<tametick>why not?
(12:37:41)<tametick>how do you close the game?
(12:37:51)<konijn_>because the user should only be allowed to quit through the black button
(12:37:57)<konijn_>your game just keeps running
(12:37:59)<konijn_>in backgrouind
(12:38:09)<tametick>what's the black button?
(12:38:26)<konijn_>the http://www.simplehelp.net/2010/04/03/how-to-take-a-screenshot-of-your-ipad/
(12:38:33)<konijn_>the hardware button at the bottom
(12:38:43)<tametick>aha
(12:38:49)<tametick>so generally you don't exit anything in ios?
(12:39:10)<tametick>doesn't it get slow quick?
(12:39:25)<tametick>with all those apps sapping cpu in the bg?
(12:39:38)<tametick>(and or battery power)
(12:40:18)<konijn_>noops
(12:40:31)<konijn_>I know people with like 50 apps open on average
(12:40:38)<tametick>really
(12:40:49)<tametick>i guess it kills it when it runs out of ram?
(12:41:18)<konijn_>indeed
(12:41:25)<konijn_>which is ok, if it doesnt happen to often
(12:41:28)<konijn_>I guess
(12:41:31)<konijn_>some games do that
(12:41:32)<tametick>yeah that's fine
(12:41:49)<tametick>actually it's good for us, less need for a save feature 
(12:42:12)<tametick>if the phone rings you answer, game stays in bg, afterwards you continue playing
(12:42:14)<konijn_>so , this odd
(12:42:24)<konijn_>your scenario, absolutely
(12:42:31)<konijn_>but, for a mysterious reason
(12:42:40)<konijn_>the game that I started last night was gone this morning
(12:42:48)<konijn_>could be memory management or something in air giving up
(12:42:51)<konijn_>I think that's fine
(12:42:58)<konijn_>the game can be finished in like 30 mins
(12:43:09)<konijn_>its not a huge loss
(12:44:01)<tametick>yeah i would say if you win it takes about 20 mins
(12:44:11)<tametick>and more likely you lose faster than that
(12:45:45)<konijn_>so
(12:45:52)<konijn_>on my wife's ipad it worked perfectly
(12:46:07)<konijn_>on my ipad ( i have more open apps ) it crashed at dungeon generation
(12:46:17)<konijn_>memory I guess..
(12:46:20)<tametick>k
(12:46:28)<tametick>did it gave any stack trace?
(12:46:37)<tametick>can you run it in debug mode?
(12:47:11)<konijn_>no and no
(12:47:13)<konijn_>well
(12:47:23)<konijn_>I could build a trace-ipa
(12:47:26)<konijn_>that's for this evening
(12:47:44)<tametick>sounds good
(12:47:54)<tametick>sounds like mobile-cq is not far away :)
(12:48:03)<tametick>at least for ipads might only be a matter of days 
(12:51:21)<konijn_>possibly
(12:51:41)<konijn_>I'll be back
(01:34:50)<konijn__>back
(01:36:57)<konijn__>hmm
(01:37:01)<konijn__>not sure what happened there
(01:50:21)<konijn__>http://imgur.com/6Rmy8
(01:51:54)<konijn__>http://imgur.com/nN16H
(01:52:07)<konijn__>from iPad
(01:55:19)<jday_win>tametick: Up briefly, and pushed CqMobFactory.  
(01:55:44)<jday_win>As per my commit note, that was the whole point -- I thought it was selected.
(01:56:02)<tametick>hey
(01:56:10)<jday_win>The changes I've made are big, so it's unfortunate you haven't been seeing them and testing them.
(01:56:13)<tametick>cool will update
(01:56:22)<jday_win>I'm never sure of everything, naturally.
(01:56:31)<tametick>i did see everything else 
(01:56:38)<tametick>i just reused the old mobfactory
(01:56:41)<konijn__>wow
(01:56:45)<konijn__>if (mob.type == SPIDER_GRAY) { 176					mob.name = "Wolf Spider"; 177					mob.speed *= 3; 178					mob.spirit = 1; 179				}
(01:56:54)<konijn__>you need some xp adjustment there , no ?
(01:57:22)<tametick>i don't know. can see how it works as is
(01:57:35)<tametick>spiders are pretty slow you must remember 
(01:57:56)<konijn__>Yeah, but now wolf spiders are speed 9
(01:58:01)<konijn__>that's faster than minotaur
(01:58:02)<tametick>iirc speed 1? so speed 3 with casting a lot less often due to spirit doesn't sound so bad
(01:58:11)<tametick>oh, are they 3?
(01:58:17)<konijn__>yup
(01:58:21)<tametick>yeah might need to tame that a bit
(01:58:29)<tametick>maybe *2 instead? 
(01:58:31)<konijn__>or more xp
(01:58:32)<konijn__>either way
(01:58:42)<tametick>more xp would be harder to balance
(01:58:45)<konijn__>we could give *2 a shot
(01:58:51)<tametick>right now you get about 1 level per floor
(01:58:54)<tametick>i want to keep it that way
(01:59:33)<konijn__>then *2 for sure
(01:59:37)<jday_win>Do *2
(01:59:42)<tametick>k
(01:59:48)<jday_win>That was an oversight when I sped up all spiders.
(01:59:56)<konijn__>especially, since those spiders cast 'slow' :P
(02:00:27)<jday_win>I was noticing that they tended to be pushovers by the time I actually got to them; if I'm wrong about any of that, correct it.  But I was trying to smooth the ramp up to minotaurs just slightly.
(02:00:39)<konijn__>yup
(02:00:44)<konijn__>I think general speed 3 is ok
(02:00:49)<tametick>yeah that's fine
(02:00:54)<konijn__>and wolf spider 6 sounds ok
(02:01:04)<jday_win>And in particular, if it seems that I missed the interaction with one particular player class, I probably did, so fix it.
(02:01:44)<tametick>switching computers 
(02:01:45)<jday_win>And make sure to try out the shadow walking stuff.  It seemed fun to me, but it might need a bigger damage mult to make up for having to break invis to attack.
(02:01:46)<tametick>bbl
(02:01:53)<jday_win>(right now, 2.)
(02:01:56)<tametick>k
(02:02:22)<jday_win>Kobold Tricksters are a lot of fun.
(02:02:50)<jday_win>Since the AI doesn't really know what it's casting, teleport doesn't really make them harder.
(02:05:25)<jday_win>Also, I was working on the principle that more hp + less defense is harder for fireball, less hp + more defense is harder for hand-to-hand.  Not sure if that plays out exactly like that in-game.
(02:07:22)<jday_win>I wonder whether the slow spell needs to /2 or /3 instead of -3.  It doesn't do much if you have the right equipment or class.  (Maybe that's the point?)
(02:08:15)<jday_win>Oh, yeah.  One last thing.  Effects stack right, now.  Watch out for buffs potentially not stacking (or coming off) right.  The logic is the same as it was, but I didn't have a chance to prove it correct.
(02:11:55)<jday_win>Making healing potions a little more common or giving an extra life at floor 5 or something is another way to counter increased difficulty; give the player more to do, instead of making it easier.  Options to consider.
(02:11:59)<jday_win>And off.
(02:22:21)<konijn__>yah
(02:22:25)<konijn__>will be often in and out
(02:24:19)<tametick>back
(02:24:21)<tametick>so
(02:25:56)<tametick>what was it that you thought you forgot jday_win?
(02:27:31)<tametick>jday_win: unless you changed something i am not sure pushing another spell to the enemy does anything if they already have one
(02:27:42)<tametick>might just cast the first one every time
(02:31:14)<tametick>hrm
(02:31:20)<tametick>i guess he is gone
(02:31:51)<tametick>i don't understand what he meant by interaction with one of the classes
(02:32:45)<tametick>oh nice
(02:32:53)<tametick>shadow walk makes you half transperant 
(02:42:50)<tametick>jday_win, konijn__: let's focus only on bug fixing in the next day or 2 ok?
(02:43:05)<tametick>i *have* to get this wrapped up
(02:43:12)<tametick>deluxe edition changes can wait
(02:43:45)<konijn__>yeah
(02:48:51)<konijn__>so
(02:48:56)<konijn__>where can I find the fdb ?
(02:49:04)<konijn__>flash debugger that is
(02:49:48)<tametick>there is a debugger built into flash develop
(02:49:56)<tametick>i don't know of any stand alone debugger
(02:50:10)<tametick>there is the debug projector that shows you stack traces tho
(02:50:19)<tametick>did you change something in main menu btw?
(02:50:39)<konijn__>me ?
(02:50:59)<konijn__>I think jday did
(02:51:03)<konijn__>something about faster menu load ?
(02:51:20)<tametick>ah
(02:51:22)<tametick>yes
(02:51:24)<tametick>it broke it
(02:52:43)<konijn__>wow
(02:52:46)<konijn__>that could be great
(02:52:59)<konijn__>how does the break manifest ?
(02:53:14)<tametick>press esc during the game
(02:53:26)<tametick>the menu comes up empty
(02:55:19)<tametick>i don't get his obsession with load times
(02:55:32)<tametick>even on this shitty netbook it's so fast i can't even notice them
(02:56:16)<konijn__>;)
(02:56:22)<konijn__>there is a delay on iPad
(02:56:24)<konijn__>not too bad
(02:56:55)<tametick>i can't even see where the menu is brought up during the game
(02:58:32)<tametick>ah there it is
(03:02:07)<tametick>it's a problem with the state stacking
(03:09:29)<tametick>fixed, pushing
(03:09:57)<konijn__>greaet
(03:10:00)<konijn__>great
(03:13:01)<tametick>man that menu logic is a bit convoluted 
(03:16:00)<tametick>also, twitter seems to be pro-letterboxing 
(03:16:19)<tametick>asked if they prefer letterboxing for non-3:4 ratios or stretching 
(03:17:59)<konijn__>really
(03:18:17)<tametick>yep
(03:35:33)<konijn__>so
(03:35:41)<konijn__>what sucks is that this weekend I am duty for work again
(03:35:51)<konijn__>so not much progress with the apple stuff most likely
(03:45:05)<konijn__>ee
(03:45:08)<konijn__>ah
(03:51:37)<jday_win>tametick: Pushing two spells does indeed end up casting both.
(03:53:27)<jday_win>And the break on pressing esc came from merging; that was working before.
(03:53:50)<jday_win>So it shouldn't be too hard to track down.
(03:55:17)<jday_win>Oh!  You already found it.
(03:58:38)<jday_win>As for the menu screen -- it's not the load time so much as the rhythm that felt off.
(03:59:15)<jday_win>And the pause before the GameState loads felt particularly bad because the mouse cursor didn't actually disappear.  Locking up the cursor is a very bad feeling.
(03:59:32)<jday_win>This is all stuff I noticed and disliked the first time I played.
(04:01:03)<jday_win>It's about trying to make the experience seamless so it's just a little more obviously fun.
(04:04:59)<jday_win>(Before going to sleep I sat for about half an hour with my menu, trying to break it before it finished coming up and all that stuff.  So it's too bad I didn't catch whatever caught wl.)
(04:10:25)<tametick>jday_win: no worries
(04:11:02)<tametick>i fixed the in-game menu not showing but not the esc to dismiss menu, which i think also used to work. but that's much simpler to fix
(04:11:54)<tametick>jday_win: what is your plan for today? i want to finally get kong the web version so please no more features & just keep it to bug fixes today
(04:12:06)<tametick>if you can do that ui bug that'd be great
(04:12:12)<jday_win>The inventory one?
(04:12:16)<tametick>yeah
(04:12:19)<tametick>with the spells
(04:12:33)<jday_win>I'll look that over, yeah.
(04:12:47)<tametick>might be tricky, it's actually not that critical for today because it doesn't break the game and doesn't happen that often
(04:13:34)<tametick>ah
(04:13:45)<tametick>jday_win: did you see what w1 just wrote on #rgrd?
(04:13:52)<tametick>more menu/ui issues
(04:14:03)<tametick>these are more important than the inv bug
(04:14:27)<jday_win>Indeed.  These aren't just from an earlier build, then?
(04:15:19)<tametick>pretty sure they are new
(04:15:31)<tametick>the menu stuff was well tested 
(04:15:48)<tametick>1.Choosing new game from the menu after already having started a game will produce a black screen
(04:15:55)<tametick>2.On floor 1 and only floor 1 hp bars will only appear on wounded enemies after they've made a move (Works fine from floor 2 onwards)
(04:16:01)<tametick>3.And now when I'm in the menu, I can't even choose "New Game", it will always jump back to "Resume Game"
(04:16:09)<tametick>4.Just now I got a duplicate message when picking up an item I already had, weird
(04:16:25)<tametick>5.When starting the game and pressing enter before the menu has come to a stop, produces a null pointer exception
(04:16:45)<tametick>99% sure all of these are brand new
(04:18:07)<tametick>i'm checking out number 5 now
(04:18:43)<jday_win>That one looks easy to fix if it's real; should just need to Actuate.reset()
(04:19:01)<jday_win>I have a fix in place but I'm trying to make sure it doesn't happen in the in-game version of the menu.
(04:19:12)<tametick>ok
(04:19:29)<tametick>i was thinking just ignore the keys until the menu is in place
(04:19:51)<tametick>the problem is that it tries to add the other element while the state has already changed
(04:20:10)<tametick>i will try that first, pretty sure it fixes it
(04:20:27)<jday_win>(It's possible to make an XBall stay on the screen if you bring up the menu after firing it.  That is not an issue, but it's funny.)
(04:21:39)<tametick>can add it to the doc, not critical right now
(04:23:01)<tametick>still splashing is the movement right?
(04:23:20)<tametick>i.e. if(!stillSpalshing) should be good for checking the menu isn't moving
(04:24:26)<jday_win>I need to add another state for that.  stillSplashing is the part that's equivalent to the old SplashState -- i.e., still nothing but the logo text.
(04:24:35)<tametick>ah right
(04:24:45)<tametick>showAdditionalButtons should flip that new bool
(04:25:05)<tametick>wait, are you also on this one?  should i stop working on it?
(04:25:20)<jday_win>You can take care of that one.  I'm attempting #3.
(04:25:24)<tametick>ok cool
(04:25:40)<jday_win>I mean, #1.  fadeStateCallBack won't jump to a new state if the current state isn't on the top of the stack.
(04:25:48)<tametick>k
(04:25:53)<jday_win>Was that test added to fix a specific bug, do you know?
(04:26:00)<jday_win>I can find a different workaround if so.
(04:26:25)<tametick>in the menu?
(04:26:49)<tametick>the stack thing is just for not showing the bg is it's during gameplay, i.e. to keep rendering the game behind it
(04:27:09)<tametick>which file/line number are you talking about?
(04:28:46)<jday_win>MainMenuState.hx, in fadeStateCallBack around line 394.
(04:29:04)<jday_win>The other stack stuff differentiates behavior, but in this case it just forces it to break during gameplay.
(04:29:28)<jday_win>But maybe it's right if, e.g., the credits screen behaves differently from the gameplay screen, and it's a legitimate issue then.
(04:30:13)<tametick>newState = null;?
(04:30:36)<tametick>are you sure you are up to date?
(04:32:13)<tametick>it sounds like a check i removed earlier today
(04:32:31)<jday_win>Have you pushed it?
(04:34:35)<tametick>83 minutes ago
(04:34:47)<tametick>changeset 1257
(04:34:51)<tametick>1357
(04:34:57)<tametick>pushed again now with the new fix
(04:34:58)<tametick>for 5
(04:36:19)<tametick>3 doesn't happen to me
(04:37:47)<jday_win>1357 doesn't include the fix I'm talking about.
(04:38:21)<jday_win>This test: if ( stackId == 0 ) {
(04:38:26)<jday_win>is what breaks it.
(04:38:30)<tametick>ah
(04:38:58)<tametick>hrm
(04:39:01)<tametick>don't remember what it was for
(04:39:11)<tametick>remove it and see if it's broken
(04:39:21)<tametick>it's just a menu, shouldn't be that big of a deal
(04:39:37)<tametick>i think it's likely a remnant from old code 
(04:40:00)<tametick>yeah it doesn't make any sense, remove it
(04:41:49)<tametick>yes i see now: http://i.imgur.com/PkWAr.png
(04:41:57)<tametick>it's my fault sorry 
(04:42:07)<tametick>should have remove the if with the else
(04:59:06)<tametick>really odd with 2. he is right, the bug only happens in the first floor
(05:03:41)<tametick>would also be good if in the future you could break mega-commits like 1347 into several small ones
(05:03:51)<tametick>but the changes really feel good :)
(05:04:04)<tametick>they make a big difference 
(05:04:27)<tametick>i liked the stealth effect too
(05:13:56)<jday_win>I'll see what I can work out about the health popups.  That it only happens on the first floor is a clue -- of what, I can't say.
(05:21:49)<tametick>fixed it
(05:21:58)<tametick>a bit of a hack but it works
(05:22:07)<tametick>it's not the popups it's the hp bars
(05:22:13)<tametick>pushing now
(05:22:40)<tametick>btw for health checks use maxhp not vitality
(05:22:52)<tametick>vitality = number of hp gained per character level
(05:23:14)<tametick>for mobs that happens to be the same as maxhp but it's just a coincidence 
(05:24:19)<tametick>btw did you plan on doing any other special spell effects like the one for shadow walk?
(05:24:32)<tametick>i used to tint the character red for berserk way back 
(05:24:47)<tametick>we can tint them green for weakened etc
(05:25:08)<tametick>also use auras (look at the glow effect that magical weapons use for example)
(05:25:17)<tametick>*we can also use
(05:25:35)<tametick>i think it's relatively little work and really adds polish to the game
(05:29:01)<tametick>pressing esc while in menu now resumes game if possible, pushing that too
(05:29:03)<jday_win>I think auras are the best bet.
(05:29:55)<tametick>yeah it's pretty easy to use, you can probably refactor the magical item glow into a more generic function and reuse that
(05:31:16)<tametick>but let's focus on the bugs first
(05:31:21)<tametick>i think we got most of them?
(05:31:56)<tametick>just 4 i guess really remains from w1's, the duplicate item messages. although i never saw them myself
(05:33:13)<tametick>btw are you on twitter? 
(05:33:21)<tametick>that's my main form of communication with players
(05:36:14)<tametick>wow teleport looks rad on those kobold magis
(05:36:31)<tametick>one just teleported infront of me when i was trying to escape
(05:39:11)<jday_win>That's the brilliance of totally random AI, right there.
(05:39:42)<jday_win>Not on twitter, no.
(05:40:04)<jday_win>And #4 -- presumably he doesn't mean that he got the message twice, so much as that he got a message he didn't expect.
(05:40:22)<jday_win>Which could certainly be the case.
(05:43:35)<jday_win>As for spells visibly dropping out of the inventory -- that happens to me every time I try moving them.
(05:43:46)<jday_win>I don't think I've ever had it work, so I wouldn't characterize that bug as rare.
(05:45:27)<tametick>ah ok
(05:45:43)<tametick>i just played a bit more now, messages look fine to me but maybe he was expecting something else
(05:45:59)<tametick>hrm
(05:46:20)<tametick>yeah i normally just let them gather automatically where they want as i pick them up
(05:47:33)<jday_win>Once you have more than five spells that becomes an issue, though.
(05:47:41)<tametick>yeah
(05:47:49)<tametick>in that case it would be great if you can focus on that issue
(05:47:55)<tametick>and we can do the effects later
(05:48:28)<tametick>i think there is only one use case that's really problematic, iirc drop one spell on top of another
(05:49:01)<tametick>and dropping a spell into the inv or dropping a spell from the inv on an empty spot in the spell belt worked fine
(05:49:06)<tametick>but i might be mistaken
(05:49:32)<jday_win>In that case it should be easy.
(05:49:34)<tametick>but dropping one spell on another might be the common case 
(05:49:47)<tametick>yeah. but check it out, i am not sure this is the case 
(06:02:48)<jday_win>Yeah, it works great as long as they're not (a) both occupied and (b) in different grids.
(06:03:37)<tametick>so dropping one spell on another from inv to belt or vice versa
(06:04:48)<konijn__>I lost my healing spell twice that way
(06:04:53)<konijn__>that's really a game killer
(06:05:12)<jday_win>If you drag it again within its grid, it'll go back to working.
(06:06:38)<konijn__>my healing spell was nowhere to be seen
(06:06:44)<konijn__>couldnt drag it anywhere
(06:07:30)<jday_win>Most of the times I've seen it, it comes back when you bring the inventory back up.  I'll need to make sure it's the same bug.
(06:09:54)<tametick>same for me jday_win 
(06:10:14)<tametick>it seems to just get attached to the inv panel that gets shifted back up when you exit the inv
(06:10:53)<jday_win>Although I just saw an item in the inv panel not slide all the way up.  So oddities abound.
(06:12:04)<tametick>it's likely all caused by 1 or 2 bugs tho
(06:17:40)<jday_win>Just pushed a fix for a npe, tametick.
(06:21:07)<tametick>cool
(06:46:26)<konijn__>what does npe mean ?
(06:47:18)<tametick>null pointer exception 
(06:54:22)<konijn__>ah
(06:57:47)<tametick>jday_win: i'm surprised how much better the effect make it look
(06:57:54)<tametick>the game somehow looks a lot more polished now
(06:59:09)<jday_win>I'm glad!  I think it makes it easier to tell what's going on, too.
(07:00:24)<tametick>yeah
(10:40:55)<jday_win>tametick: I'm thinking of checking whether the stairs are in sight at the beginning of a level and picking a new spawn point.
(10:41:20)<jday_win>I suspect that my nephew got confused not because he didn't understand that there would be stairs, but because he started on or near them and presumed they were the entrance.
(10:42:54)<tametick>i think such a check is already made, but apparently isn't working 
(10:53:51)<jday_win>I just looked for it.  Looks like it guarantees that the stairs down are within 10 cells, not at least 10 cells, away.
(10:53:55)<jday_win>So that'll be an easy fix.
(10:54:57)<jday_win>It certainly explains why the stairs are almost always so close -- which could be a really cool design decision, honestly.  I could see that working really well in a roguelike with a tight food clock.
(11:08:49)<tametick>hrm
(11:09:10)<tametick>strange that it would be something so simple, i've been though that code so many times
(11:09:22)<tametick>*through
(11:09:36)<tametick>i'm going to upload 1.1c to desura when we're done
(11:09:51)<tametick>maybe try the mac store too
(11:10:21)<tametick>anyway i'm heading to bed
(11:10:59)<tametick>good progress today! just be careful not to introduce new bugs & try to keep new features to after we release 1.1c
(11:30:52)<konijn_>that might have been me
(11:30:57)<konijn_>to debug easier 
(11:31:06)<konijn_>I put it comments the true comparison
(11:31:24)<konijn_>also, I thought I had restored the true comparison
(11:34:48)<jday_win>The comment says exactly what the line says, so whatever it used to be, it has been.
(11:35:07)<jday_win>It's reversed for me locally and it's working as it should.
(11:35:53)<jday_win>I'm also adding an alert when you see the stairs, in case players don't know what they're looking for.
(11:51:49)<jday_win>I'm also going to bias melee damage towards the middle of ranges -- I think it will work better that way.
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/13 +++
(12:24:05)<jday_win>Another thing we should do in the long run, but not right now of course, is make speed exponential.
(12:24:25)<jday_win>So that speed doubles (or halves) with every +3 or +5 (or -3 or -5).
(12:24:49)<jday_win>Right now, spiders don't even slow a thief down if he's got any gear on, because the bigger the number is the less each buff or debuff matters.
(12:31:52)<konijn>or just have them cast 50% slow and have the text show what that amounts to
(12:37:28)<jday_win>I like that.
(12:39:38)<jday_win>It opens the game up to a scummy behavior (take off speed buffs, get slowed, put them on), but if anyone cares that much, let them.
(01:01:28)<konijn>indeed
(01:01:35)<konijn>players like to feel clever :P
(01:45:51)<konijn>still there ?
(01:45:53)<konijn>if so
(01:46:02)<konijn>in CqSpellButton
(01:46:07)<konijn>I wonder why we get the mouseevent
(01:46:14)<konijn>but then not use the coordinates ??
(01:46:29)<konijn>this might be why in the iOS port things get messsed up ?
(01:46:54)<konijn>I am going to try to use the stageX , stageY properties
(01:49:39)<konijn>okay
(01:49:47)<konijn>another potentially useless thought
(01:49:48)<konijn>but
(01:49:51)<konijn>if a widget
(01:49:55)<konijn>( say a spell button )
(01:49:59)<konijn>gets a mouse event 
(01:50:06)<konijn>why would you check the coordinates ?
(01:50:14)<konijn>is it because the framework cannot be trusted ?
(01:58:59)<jday_win>That is a very good question, konijn.  As far as I know most things in this codebase are made of voodoo and string.
(01:59:57)<konijn>;]
(02:00:01)<konijn>and ;[
(02:00:40)<jday_win>Then again, you do a bit of work professionally and you find that most code is similar.
(02:01:53)<konijn>I guess
(02:04:32)<jday_win>I was wondering something.  Most of the work you're doing will end up improving things for Android too, right?
(02:04:46)<konijn>for now
(02:04:46)<konijn>yes
(02:05:07)<konijn>I created Configuratio.iOS Configuration.android Configuration.mobile
(02:05:11)<konijn>used iOS once
(02:05:15)<konijn>all the rest is mobile
(02:05:19)<konijn>'all'
(02:05:22)<konijn>changes are minor so far
(02:05:26)<konijn>my flow is slow
(02:05:34)<konijn>packaging with adt takes forever
(02:06:47)<jday_win>So from where I stand, I know I can keep doing subtle gameplay improvements forever.  I mean, yeah, like Ido says we'll freeze CQ Classic tomorrow, but there's so much room for growth here.
(02:07:21)<jday_win>Like rewriting spells to be a little more dynamic and adding more effects, getting more things moving and bouncing in various ways, adding more interesting terrain and puzzle elements.
(02:08:11)<konijn>well
(02:08:23)<jday_win>And that stuff affects both platforms and your stuff affects both platforms -- I'm not even sure I have an advantage in figuring out what needs figuring out for Android.  (Totally willing to do it, since I need to know this stuff.)
(02:08:41)<konijn>what do you mean advantage ?
(02:09:09)<konijn>if we do Air, you need to learn how to use adt to package android
(02:09:21)<konijn>and you might want your name on the intro screen as the porting guy
(02:09:27)<konijn>that's what I just put for iOS specific ;)
(02:09:40)<konijn>all the rest is replacing mouse up down with touchevent ( tap )
(02:09:52)<konijn>if we do corona, it gets even simpler
(02:10:05)<konijn>and of course you need to know the ropes of the android markets to upload the game
(02:10:21)<konijn>regardless
(02:10:46)<konijn>I would almost propose you clone the repository of Ido and do your thing there for CQ Plus
(02:19:00)<jday_win>I just want to throw this out there: I'm wondering if we shouldn't each take 25% of all mobile sales rather than 50% iOS going to you and 50% Android to me -- basically presume that most of the work on each platform will apply to the other.  (There are many good, valid reasons to turn this down.  Don't feel like you need to explain why, if you don't want to do this.)
(02:19:24)<jday_win>I'm only about half sure that that idea is even a fair one for you, much less a good one.
(02:19:55)<konijn>ios sales should be much higher ;]
(02:20:00)<konijn>still
(02:20:10)<konijn>here's the deal for me
(02:20:25)<konijn>if it turns out that Air is too crappy ( which is still a very real possibility )
(02:20:33)<konijn>and we need to do this in Corona
(02:20:52)<konijn>then we should 25% , 25% of all mobile sales
(02:21:01)<konijn>because I will need a lot of your help
(02:21:15)<konijn>I like Corona because , for example, air will not allow in game purchases
(02:21:22)<konijn>and I WANT to sell in game stuff
(02:21:30)<konijn>like selling the berserker as an upgrade etc.
(02:21:45)<konijn>and I want integration with Apple Game Center
(02:21:59)<konijn>and you would want integration with whatever social game site android uses a lot
(02:22:06)<konijn>all of this is not possible with air
(02:22:26)<jday_win>I am up for that, yeah.  If we have to port it all to Lua -- well, it'll be a fun process, frankly.
(02:22:37)<konijn>I am almost thinking 
(02:22:48)<konijn>that after tomorrow we should focus mostly on lua
(02:22:58)<konijn>once ido is set with his flash release
(02:23:36)<konijn>we should talk it over with Ido of course, but I think I can make him see reason
(02:23:54)<konijn>all he needs is one buddy with an iPad and play it
(02:24:01)<konijn>he'll see its too choppy/slow
(02:24:22)<jday_win>I presume Corona can target the PC easily, for the desktop buyers.
(02:24:38)<konijn>noops
(02:24:46)<konijn>but PC can be done ( well ) by air
(02:24:52)<konijn>cq.exe is already being sold
(02:25:03)<konijn>by Ido
(02:27:15)<konijn>I've said it before, what's nice is all those minor platforms that we would be able to sell to
(02:27:38)<konijn>gah, I upgraded my iPad to iOS 5, now I need the new xCode
(02:27:41)<konijn>which is 1.8 Gigs
(02:30:26)<jday_win>So if we really want to (if desktop people want our shinier gameplay) I can write something that will use SDL or whatever, but I guess that won't matter.
(02:31:02)<jday_win>So Air really can't integrate with Apply Game Center? 
(02:31:07)<jday_win>*Apple
(02:32:32)<konijn>that is correct
(02:32:40)<konijn>nor can it do ingame purchase
(02:35:30)<konijn>hmm
(02:36:21)<konijn>let me take that half back
(02:36:22)<konijn>http://www.adobe.com/devnet/air/native-extensions-for-air.html
(02:36:31)<konijn>but man, not sure I want to go there .....
(02:42:58)<konijn>Yeah, I _really_ dont want to go there
(02:46:36)<konijn>well
(02:46:39)<konijn>I am going afk
(02:56:02)<konijn>vack
(02:56:06)<konijn>back
(02:56:54)<jday_win>Welcome.  Yeah, I've been out of the habit of announcing when I go, which in a one-on-one conversation is less than ideal.
(02:58:13)<konijn>;]
(02:58:29)<konijn>no worries
(02:59:39)<konijn>Language                     files          blank        comment           code
(02:59:45)<konijn>Lua                             40            900            337           1806
(02:59:52)<konijn>is where I am with the Corona port
(02:59:57)<konijn>a map displays
(03:00:02)<konijn>( ugly though )
(03:00:06)<konijn>and it needs centering
(03:00:15)<konijn>but still
(03:00:23)<konijn>I am guessing one third of the code is done
(03:01:33)<jday_win>And this is in the repository you shared with me, right?
(03:02:01)<jday_win>(One major advantage is that I'll be able to work on my primary system instead of on this netbook.)
(03:02:55)<konijn>indeed
(03:03:01)<konijn>as well
(03:03:02)<jday_win>So if we think Air is going to cause trouble and be insufficiently fast, I am totally down for porting & rewriting for Lua.
(03:03:09)<konijn>very good
(03:03:15)<konijn>I am this close to state it
(03:03:28)<konijn>in fairness , I am going to turn off all the bobbing and see whether that helps
(03:03:41)<konijn>do you know where the bobbing code is ?
(03:03:56)<konijn>the thing as well for us
(03:03:59)<jday_win>It shouldn't; that just repositions elements that are getting drawn anyway.  It's in CqActor render
(03:04:29)<konijn>interesting
(03:04:43)<konijn>it would seem that the dungeon shifts fast enough and the app is waiting for the bobs to animate
(03:05:03)<jday_win>Wow, that is crazy.
(03:06:11)<konijn>yeah
(03:07:12)<konijn>gah, stupid iOS 5
(03:07:25)<konijn>now iTunes doesnt want to talk to my iPad
(03:07:32)<konijn>580 megs...
(03:07:38)<konijn>while downloading also xcode..
(03:20:00)<jday_win>I've got to say, I really like the constraints of this project.
(03:20:14)<jday_win>I've got some cool stuff going (have you been around to see any of it?), but it's all so big and unbounded that nothing happens.
(03:20:31)<jday_win>Having a code base to work from and just going _forward_, wherever that leads, is refreshing.
(03:23:21)<konijn>indeed
(03:23:28)<konijn>I have not seen your work 
(03:23:32)<konijn>you have some links ?
(03:32:04)<konijn>okay
(03:32:07)<konijn>gah
(03:32:12)<konijn>need to download some more gigabytes before I can work on this
(03:32:14)<konijn>I am heading for betd
(03:32:16)<konijn>bed
(03:32:17)<konijn> that is
(09:04:37)<tametick>greetings!
(09:07:34)<tametick>jday_win: are you still there?
(11:52:02)<konijn_>greetings
(11:56:29)<tametick>hey
(11:56:55)<konijn_>so
(11:56:59)<konijn_>I had a question last night
(11:57:14)<konijn_>why do spell buttons, when they get a click event
(11:57:19)<konijn_>still check x,y coordinates ?
(11:57:38)<konijn_>do they get click events when they shouldnt ?
(11:58:03)<tametick>i think the stage gets click event
(11:58:08)<tametick>not the sprites
(11:58:19)<tametick>if you look at the overloaded addeventlistener method
(12:00:54)<tametick>	function addEventListener(Type:String, Listener:Dynamic, UseCapture:Bool=false, Priority:Int=0, UseWeakReference:Bool=true) { 
(12:00:56)<tametick>		HxlGraphics.stage.addEventListener(Type, Listener, UseCapture, Priority, UseWeakReference);
(12:00:58)<tametick>		eventListeners.push( {Type: Type, Listener: Listener, UseCapture: UseCapture, Priority: Priority} );
(12:01:01)<tametick>	}
(12:01:08)<tametick>it's part of flixel's legacy 
(12:02:13)<tametick>also, pretty sure air translate touch events to mouse events for you automatically 
(12:02:16)<tametick>but might be wrong
(12:06:51)<konijn_>it is not spontaneous enough though
(12:06:55)<konijn_>it feels too sluggish
(12:07:13)<tametick>ok
(12:07:14)<konijn_>so I am hoping that the tap even is more appropriate
(12:07:25)<tametick>hopefully that's it
(12:07:34)<tametick>does it otherwise run fast enough?
(12:08:13)<konijn_>the bobbing looks  weird
(12:08:19)<konijn_>the character moves and then bobs
(12:08:26)<konijn_>so I think I will try to cut that out
(12:08:37)<konijn_>also the clouds/blood particles are too slow
(12:08:38)<tametick>or maybe just tweak it to look better
(12:08:40)<konijn_>other than that ook
(12:08:42)<konijn_>oh
(12:08:44)<tametick>ok
(12:08:58)<konijn_>the the text moving up in intro is quite choppily moving up
(12:09:26)<tametick>just make sure you're not breaking the desktop version 
(12:09:50)<tametick>in the next couple of days fixing bugs and not creating new ones is the most important thing
(12:09:56)<tametick>once 1.1c is out you can go nuts
(12:14:08)<konijn_>uderstood
(01:14:35)<konijn>back again
(01:15:29)<tametick>\o/
(04:12:08)<jday_win>It's amazing how often I forget to push when there are upstream changes to merge.
(04:12:27)<jday_win>First commit, then be rebuffed, then revert changes to config, then pull, then merge, then test the merge, then forget.
(04:12:43)<jday_win>Apparently!
(04:13:03)<tametick>hehe
(04:16:18)<tametick>the win state black screen bug is the top priority 
(04:16:26)<tametick>i assume it is also an easy fix
(04:17:41)<jday_win>It probably is.  I really need to tweak debug mode to start with some good items; I'd like to play through level 8 when testing it.
(04:17:51)<jday_win>Still, skipping isn't bad!
(04:17:55)<tametick>give()
(04:18:05)<tametick>it's already giving you reveal map
(04:18:14)<tametick>just get it to give you some other stuff too
(04:18:24)<jday_win>I made it give magic mirror when I was testing that.
(04:18:26)<tametick>it's really simple 
(04:18:28)<tametick>yeah
(04:18:48)<tametick>you can also just set your stats to really high too
(04:18:54)<jday_win>Might be simpler.
(04:19:06)<tametick>there is also something like that commented out in the code
(04:19:19)<tametick>that gives you 500 attack or something in debug mode
(04:19:33)<tametick>same place that gives you 4 lives instead of 1
(04:19:37)<jday_win>(It would be cool, incidentally, to track each run -- what is their level and what is their xp at each stairwell.)
(04:19:58)<tametick>well, i got plenty of screenshots from players
(04:20:06)<tametick>normally char level is dungeon floor+1
(04:20:13)<tametick>at an amazing consistency 
(04:21:01)<jday_win>Level only really determines health though, right?
(04:21:14)<tametick>most important thing atm (even more than fixing bugs) is not to introduce new bugs and memory leaks! other than the win screen all the current bugs aren't that terrible
(04:21:17)<tametick>yes
(04:21:43)<tametick>hp = vitality * (char level+1)
(04:22:05)<tametick>healing you is also a pretty important bonus quite often
(04:22:49)<tametick>i'm now thinking it might have been a mistake to have it at all, as it doesn't really matter 
(04:22:56)<tametick>just makes balancing the game harder
(04:23:15)<tametick>might have been better to simply heal you instead 
(04:23:21)<tametick>and not call it level & xp
(04:23:42)<tametick>it's one of those features that got added because "every roguelike has xp and levels"
(04:25:13)<tametick>i'm out walking the dog
(04:37:57)<jday_win>konijn: Thinking about dlc here -- can we take a page from the evil social games roolbook and make everything that can be bought be able to be purchased with in-game gold?
(04:38:45)<jday_win>Then we could throw in a few things that sell for somewhere around 40 gold -- things that you can get every game or two, just to impress upon the player the value of the things there.
(04:39:16)<jday_win>And then there would be things for 1000 gold, and maybe for 6000 or 10000, that you'd really have to pay money for if you were ever going to get.
(04:40:13)<jday_win>Second option, which plays in really well with that but which will require new assets: paper dolls.  Let players buy bits and pieces to customize their guys visually.
(04:41:54)<jday_win>And then some additional things that you could buy: level jumps, which let you start on any level up to n which you've bought; classes (like berserker); new enemies (?) and items (?); on a whim, we could sell 'diagonals', as there are only two places in the codebase that that would have to change.
(04:42:37)<jday_win>(For monsters 8-way movement is literally a single boolean which is presently false.)
(05:15:52)<konijn>so
(05:16:02)<konijn>for each game you would remember how much gold was found
(05:16:05)<konijn>and it keeps adding up
(05:16:10)<konijn>enough gold, you can get features
(05:16:15)<konijn>or you just buy gold ?
(05:16:45)<konijn>before we can do dlc, we must do lua though
(05:16:53)<tametick>why?
(05:17:40)<jday_win>konijn: Yep, that's the gist of it.
(05:18:03)<konijn>because air does not do dlc
(05:18:06)<tametick>(why lua that is)
(05:18:09)<tametick>ah
(05:18:11)<tametick>really?
(05:18:13)<konijn>yah
(05:18:18)<tametick>what does it have to do with anything?
(05:18:23)<tametick>is it some apple api?
(05:18:25)<konijn>well
(05:18:27)<konijn>yes
(05:18:32)<tametick>hrm
(05:18:40)<konijn>also
(05:18:42)<tametick>there must be a simpler way out from that tho
(05:18:43)<konijn>air does not do game center
(05:18:50)<tametick>what's game center?
(05:18:55)<konijn>well, apple will not approve until you use their api
(05:18:59)<konijn>walled garden etc.
(05:19:07)<konijn>game center is the kongregate of apple
(05:19:08)<tametick>what's game center?
(05:19:13)<tametick>ok
(05:19:40)<tametick>there must be some easier option tho. i once mixed some c++ code with the current air version, for littleindie's api
(05:19:48)<konijn>yeah
(05:19:50)<tametick>(it has been removed since then) 
(05:20:09)<konijn>not sure that is easier really, not for me at least
(05:20:14)<tametick>but i'd think that's more of a long term plan kind of thing anyway
(05:20:55)<tametick>it is easier than reimplementing the whole game 
(05:21:06)<tametick>i think you underestimate how much work that will be
(05:22:07)<konijn>my end goal
(05:22:15)<konijn>is to at at all costs
(05:22:19)<konijn>prevent a 1 star rating
(05:22:28)<konijn>since I attach my name to this etc.
(05:23:31)<tametick>yes but you have to be practical too
(05:23:34)<konijn>and right now the air build is still not at a level where I am sure I will get more than a one ;\
(05:23:40)<konijn>the rate goes from 1 to 5
(05:23:43)<konijn>I dont want a 5
(05:24:04)<tametick>yeah but you haven't changed much in the air version yet 
(05:24:15)<tametick>i am not saying change the compiler setting and put it up there
(05:24:15)<konijn>agreed
(05:24:27)<konijn>of course, but I dont know what I can do for speed though
(05:24:28)<tametick>i am sure there are ways to imporive it 
(05:24:36)<konijn>I am googling and trying ;)
(05:24:37)<tametick>lots 
(05:24:46)<tametick>the current version is not optimized at all
(05:24:53)<tametick>it's all done as naively as possible 
(05:25:07)<tametick>there's a ton of room for optimization 
(05:25:29)<tametick>for example scrape the current buffer based rendering and use gpu-backed sprites
(05:25:55)<tametick>that alone could potentially be a huge performance boost (>100x)
(05:26:42)<tametick>there is a good chance we won't have to do it but to say the current version can;t be optimized is ridiculous, as it is not optimized at all at the moment 
(05:27:01)<tametick>since it ran fast enough as it is 
(05:28:08)<konijn>okay
(05:28:14)<konijn>but see my point is
(05:28:50)<konijn>I am still not convinced that doing all this work on cardinal quest is worth it, if I still also have to write C code for game center and dlc ?
(05:29:02)<tametick>a tiny bit 
(05:29:02)<konijn>I mean
(05:29:09)<tametick>if we go that way at all
(05:29:24)<konijn>still, not giving up yet
(05:29:48)<jday_win>I'll chime in and say I'm on the fence; I won't have any trouble maintaining a version in Lua, and there are certain advantages to a rewrite (together with the addendant risks and inevitable delays).
(05:29:56)<konijn>we can definitely make it acceptable for an android-air release though
(05:30:00)<konijn>and get you some cash flow there
(05:30:10)<konijn>the Kong thing you know
(05:30:16)<tametick>right
(05:30:28)<jday_win>I mean, the bulk of the features I work on I rewrite -- that's just how debugging works for me.  By the time you throw in rewriting spells and effects, which will be necessary before the next version, we're getting close to a rewrite just for Air.
(05:30:29)<tametick>i am just afraid that rewrite would mean it never gets done at all
(05:30:37)<jday_win>A real risk, that.
(05:31:01)<tametick>from my experience it is the most probably outcome 
(05:31:09)<tametick>what you are doing now is not rewriting, it's refactoring 
(05:31:25)<jday_win>Semantics!
(05:31:43)<jday_win>It's a little different, though, because konijn and I both feel like we're working for you; you know how you're more willing to chew through unpalatable changes for someone else than for yourself?
(05:32:49)<jday_win>(-- "Semantics!" re "not rewriting, it's refactoring", and was a joke, if it wasn't clear.  Tones don't convey, I sometimes forget.)
(05:33:16)<konijn>just add :P
(05:33:19)<konijn>:P
(05:33:41)<tametick>i still suggest at the very least trying to get the current version working. as as of now it is already almost working from what i understand 
(05:33:55)<tametick>what you do in the long run is a different topic
(05:35:15)<jday_win>Another possibility, however unwise, is to shelve the Air version for a few days after the Kong release and see if we can't prove that the Corona version is workable.
(05:35:35)<jday_win>If the whole point is that we aren't commiting ourselves at this point, a few days' delay won't ruin anything.
(05:36:53)<tametick>i would be fine with that but would like to first give the current version a month of effort before scraping it. i am 99% sure we can get it to a very good position 
(05:37:14)<tametick>and if we can't it will be apparent in 1 month's time 
(05:37:41)<konijn>I think what jday and I are saying is that we can whip up a lua version much faster than 1 month
(05:37:44)<konijn>:P
(05:37:48)<tametick>also don't forget that it means having to support 2 code bases and keep porting fixed from one to the other and back
(05:38:43)<konijn>that is correct, but it also means that we can keep adding features for mobile that dont make sense in flash without breaking flash
(05:39:02)<konijn>1 month huh
(05:39:18)<konijn>the other thing, for me, is that compiling adt takes 5 minutes
(05:39:22)<konijn>which is a very slow flow
(05:39:39)<konijn>every time I try to tweak something for speed, I need to wait altogether 7 minutes to test it
(05:39:42)<konijn>not wait
(05:39:49)<konijn>but run script 1
(05:39:52)<konijn>import into itunes
(05:39:55)<konijn>disconnect my ipad
(05:39:59)<konijn>reconnect my ipad
(05:40:04)<konijn>reselect
(05:40:08)<konijn>cardinal quest
(05:40:09)<konijn>and sync
(05:40:09)<tametick>can't you test it on the emulator
(05:40:12)<konijn>no
(05:40:29)<konijn>you can test xcode projects on emulator
(05:40:52)<konijn>but adt does not create an xcode project
(05:41:03)<konijn>it produces only the full ipa
(05:41:06)<konijn>'only'
(05:41:17)<tametick>ok, fine. but let's first finish the deluxe edition for this one (which would take a lot less than a month) so that you can port that instead of reimplementing it twice 
(05:41:19)<konijn>it's still a piece of magic, but I cant run it in simulator
(05:41:25)<jday_win>konijn: Just treat it as an exercise in batch computing.  Pretend you're punching punch cards!
(05:41:33)<konijn>yah..
(05:41:44)<konijn>what's the advantage then of being born in '77 :P
(05:42:53)<tametick>i think in a few weeks the current version can be brought more or less to completion wrt deluxe edition stuff (more content basically). once it's more or less static it would be a lot easier to maintain the 2 codebases, as very little will need to be ported from 1 to the other 
(05:44:50)<konijn>yes indeed
(05:46:43)<tametick>i'm doing a podcast now, need to switch to the other computer
(05:46:47)<konijn>I wil be back
(05:46:50)<tametick>be back in 1-1.5h
(05:59:26)<konijn__>back !
(06:16:37)<konijn__>just ranting as I smack my head on the desk trying to make cardinal quest respond to simple finger presses
(06:16:58)<konijn__>but, no need to port anything mouse cursor based, or keyboard based , which is a lot of the code
(06:17:06)<konijn__>gaaaaah !!!
(06:47:25)<tametick>back too
(06:47:50)<tametick>so
(06:47:59)<tametick>let's say
(06:48:19)<tametick>randomnine is supposed to come aboard to maintain the the desktop/flash version on the 17th
(06:48:29)<tametick>which is 4 days from now
(06:48:49)<tametick>he is a pretty good programmer and i'm sure he'll be up to speed quickly
(06:49:10)<tametick>so let's say once he is fluent you 2 can start your port?
(06:49:15)<tametick>using lua or whatever you want to use
(06:49:49)<tametick>jday_win, konijn_: that's cool with you guys?
(06:55:14)<jday_win>That sounds like the right thing to say.  It also gives us time to try to salvage Air -- maybe I can look at the possibility of writing native code for dlc.
(07:03:57)<konijn__>sounds like a plan
(07:04:14)<konijn__>randomnine is awfully quite though 
(07:18:02)<tametick>i think he is just idling 
(07:18:17)<tametick>he said he will be ready to start on monday 
(07:20:24)<konijn__>cool
(07:44:59)<konijn__>gah
(07:45:10)<konijn__>stupid spell button is still not working
(08:09:01)<tametick>konijn_, jday_win: noticed on #rgrd?
(08:09:07)<jday_win>Yep.
(08:09:10)<tametick>probably trivial to fix
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/14 +++
(12:31:03)<konijn_>[20:08] <konijn_> Hells yeah [20:08] <konijn_> spell button works finally on the iPad
(12:56:45)<jday_win>o/
(01:17:39)<konijn_>0/
(01:41:05)<konijn_>so jday, do you have a mobile device to start running cardinal quest on ?
(01:41:12)<konijn_>I need some help with the following
(01:41:20)<konijn_>It seems update() is not called often enough
(01:41:30)<konijn_>which causes some finger taps to get lost in space 
(01:41:39)<konijn_>there are really 2 approaches to fix that
(01:41:52)<konijn_>1) Build a tap queue so that no tap gets left
(01:42:00)<konijn_>2) have a tap event call update()
(01:42:08)<konijn_>3) call update more often
(01:42:13)<konijn_>okay, so 3 options :P
(01:42:20)<jday_win>1 or 2, definitely.  Probably 2.
(01:42:34)<konijn_>that's what I was thinking
(01:42:36)<konijn_>as well
(01:42:36)<jday_win>My philosophy with user interface is that any overhead associated with responding to the player is acceptable.
(01:42:45)<konijn_>I'd agree
(01:42:47)<konijn_>the game works now
(01:42:49)<konijn_>but
(01:42:59)<konijn_>its frustrating that movement finger taps get lost
(01:43:14)<konijn_>hmmm
(01:43:42)<konijn_>could you look into how a queue could get done ?
(01:44:01)<konijn_>I cannot make heads or tails out of the event flow 
(01:44:05)<konijn_>can you ?
(01:44:27)<konijn_>maybe we need a skype 3 way call with Ido if you cant make heads or tails out it either
(01:44:35)<jday_win>Sure, I'll take a look at it.
(01:44:56)<jday_win>It's one of the few parts I haven't really dived into yet.
(01:47:14)<konijn_>if we can queue up clicks
(01:47:29)<konijn_>since I gave up on the tap event, mouse down is called often enough by the way
(01:47:45)<konijn_>also ( I am waiting to push till all the bugs are gone )
(01:48:27)<konijn_>you cannot trust hxlgraphics.mouse in mobile for some reason
(01:48:29)<konijn_>		if( Configuration.mobile ) { 			HxlGraphics.mouse.x = Std.int(event.localX); 			HxlGraphics.mouse.y = Std.int(event.localY); 		}
(01:49:01)<konijn_>and , for some reason, you should not take into account the scroll values for spell button and potion butotn
(01:49:04)<konijn_>		if( Configuration.mobile ) { 			HxlGraphics.mouse.x = Std.int(event.localX); 			HxlGraphics.mouse.y = Std.int(event.localY); 		}
(01:49:08)<konijn_>oh
(01:49:12)<konijn_>and one more final thing :P
(01:49:27)<konijn_>for mobile we should simply spell inventory management
(01:49:50)<konijn_>clicking a spell that is carried should bring it into inventory if there is a spot, otherwise there should be an error
(01:50:06)<konijn_>clicking a spell in inventory should bring it the inventory
(01:50:13)<konijn_>if inventory is full, there should be an error
(01:50:23)<konijn_>I dont know how we should allow the player to destroy an object
(01:50:32)<konijn_>drag/drop is a nightmare...
(01:50:36)<konijn_>it just does not translate
(01:50:48)<konijn_>I have to try it over a dozen times to make it work on my iPad
(01:54:10)<konijn_>*simplify
(02:06:14)<jday_win>konijn: Got called to help with dinner, so was away.  And now we'll be eating it.
(02:06:43)<jday_win>Frankly, drag/drop is enough of a nightmare in the existing code.
(02:06:55)<jday_win>I'm tempted to do exactly that for the desktop, man.
(02:07:21)<jday_win>Identical code scattered across four or five source files, no clear delineation of which objects are supposed to do what ...
(02:07:42)<jday_win>I will look into the event stuff the moment I get back to work.  Should be about half an hour.
(02:10:01)<konijn_>kay
(02:10:12)<konijn_>and yes, probably we want to do the same for desktop
(02:44:23)<jday_win>Welcome back.
(02:44:35)<konijn>yup
(02:44:42)<konijn>I am heading to bed
(02:44:47)<konijn>last night was late
(02:44:54)<jday_win>I've run a few of those.
(02:44:58)<konijn>I am pretty pleased with progress
(02:46:22)<jday_win>I hope to patch up the bugs and spell changes I've got on my list.
(02:46:38)<jday_win>At the moment I'm starting to dig into events.
(02:47:49)<jday_win>As for scroll values, konijn, most of the hxl objects have a scroll sensitivity.  0 is no scroll, 1 is standard scroll; anything between would parallax.
(09:18:40)<randomnine>heya :) i've been listening, i just don't have anything to contribute atm
(09:37:23)<jday_win>Morning, tametick.
(09:37:28)<jday_win>Hey, randomnine.
(09:37:32)<tametick>hi
(09:37:38)<tametick>what's up?
(09:37:50)<jday_win>Not too much!  Just getting some work in in the cool of the night.
(09:38:07)<jday_win>Tomorrow won't be as hot as the last two days so I should be able to get back into my usual rhythm, but it's been distressing.
(09:39:08)<tametick>the weather you mean?
(09:39:18)<jday_win>Yeah.
(09:39:47)<jday_win>Finally got health bars watertight (as far as I can see) and adjusted popups.  Trying to figure out the end-of-game thing before diving into the inventory code again.
(09:40:40)<tametick>cool
(09:40:51)<tametick>end of game should be pretty easy to debug/fix 
(09:40:54)<tametick>just a gut feeling
(09:41:06)<tametick>it shouldn't be too complex and is pretty much the same everytime
(09:41:21)<tametick>another thing to look into
(09:41:34)<tametick>even tho we fixed the worse offenders wrt memory leaks
(09:41:47)<tametick>1. i suspect the GraphicsCache still caches too much
(09:42:05)<tametick>2. there are large images (e.g. cutscenes) that we cache for no reason
(09:42:43)<tametick>3. the large music mp3s might be loaded on start up and especially if they are stored uncompressed in ram that might take a lot of space
(09:43:16)<jday_win>Cool.  I think I know the source well enough now to try to fix those.
(09:43:23)<tametick>right now we are good in terms of memory consumption for desktops and mobile devices with >=512mb but could still be useful to tweak that 
(09:43:51)<tametick>yeah it should be much easier with the specialized bmpdata-extending classes
(09:44:00)<tametick>you can see in the profiler where they're coming from
(09:44:28)<tametick>also i suspect tiles caching is done sub-optimally 
(09:46:25)<tametick>rendering-wise, moving from the current software-buffer (cpu bound) approach to gpu (using flash sprites) will likely give a *massive* performance boost, if you'd want to use the current version for mobiles after all
(09:46:34)<tametick>but that's not a priority i guess 
(09:47:00)<tametick>maybe randomnine can help with that, i think he knows the flash api better than all of us
(09:47:57)<tametick>and it is quite straight forward, just need to refactor haxel's rendering. will be a bunch of work for sure but might be something like 1 day of effort 
(09:48:17)<tametick>but it's your decision ultimately, as it doesn't effect the desktop version much
(11:47:49)<konijn>as to memory
(11:47:57)<konijn>cq does still crash on iPad
(11:48:06)<konijn>less often, but sometimes still on the first level of the game
(11:48:15)<konijn>so mem improvement would be very welcome
(12:03:22)<tametick>yeah
(12:11:25)<konijn>also, not sure if you got that, but I got spell and potion buttons to work
(12:11:36)<konijn>and it plays a little faster now
(12:11:55)<konijn>stills some work needs to be done on responsiveness
(12:13:10)<tametick>cool!
(12:13:30)<tametick>"work" as in work faster? or were there some bug?
(12:14:17)<konijn>for now, I think the code needs to be changed
(12:14:51)<tametick>there is a bug, where if you click and empty button it starts walking 
(12:15:16)<konijn>really
(12:15:25)<konijn>that should be easy to fix :P
(12:15:58)<konijn>I cant easily paste the conversation on what I think needs to be changed
(12:16:01)<konijn>but read on from 
(12:16:02)<konijn>(01:41:20)<konijn_>It seems update() is not called often enough
(12:16:42)<konijn>also, your feedback on my findings would be most welcome, I might be completely wrong
(12:17:15)<jday_win>How do you print to the flash log?
(12:22:17)<konijn>?
(12:22:25)<konijn>you mean the one in flashdevelop ?
(12:23:35)<jday_win>Yeah.
(12:24:34)<konijn>I have no idea :P
(12:24:45)<konijn>though I'd sure like know
(12:25:25)<jday_win>I've solved the problem I wanted it for.  Glossed over the fact that the (i in a ... b) syntax is equivalent to for (i=a;i<b;i++), even though it visually suggests (i=a;i<=b;i++)
(12:29:41)<jday_win>I've just pushed all that stuff.
(12:29:57)<jday_win>Some cool changes in there; monsters stop being afraid when they are hit (not when they are attacked).
(12:30:26)<jday_win>Monsters fight magic mirrors more effectively, although we do need to make magic mirrors last even less time now, I think.
(12:30:46)<tametick>cool
(12:30:58)<tametick>is there something i need to see or was it that iteration porblem?
(12:31:36)<jday_win>Probably not.  When you give it to wl, have him pay particular attention to damage dealt.
(12:32:01)<tametick>jday_win: if nothing else broke i will give kong the current version. after the end game crash i think there's nothing really game stopping 
(12:32:13)<tametick>ok
(12:32:19)<jday_win>The inventory item thing.
(12:32:37)<tametick>yeah that's be a good one to fix too
(12:32:41)<jday_win>I'm still really quite awake; I should probably just take a look at that again while I'm on a role.
(12:33:16)<tametick>we narrowed it down to just a single issue right?
(12:33:25)<tametick>when you drop one spell on another and they are in different grid
(12:33:27)<tametick>s
(12:33:34)<jday_win>Yep.
(12:33:38)<tametick>cool
(12:33:53)<tametick>since it's so specific it shouldn't be too complicated, i hope
(12:34:08)<jday_win>The code is a real mess in that part -- like, the stuff responsible for moving things is split between cells and items and grids with no particular order.
(12:34:33)<tametick>yeah i know
(12:34:42)<tametick>also a bunch of static bools iirc
(12:34:53)<jday_win>Nonetheless, there's an easy course of action -- which is to simulate dropping them in an intermediate cell.
(12:35:09)<jday_win>I'll see if I can make that work quickly.
(12:35:20)<tametick>great
(12:35:47)<tametick>you know what let's release 1.1c to players first (with your announcement) and then wait to see what the masses say about it
(12:36:08)<tametick>if there are any majot bugs left they will find it quicker than the testers and we can do a quickfix like 1.1b
(12:53:26)<jday_win>So tametick, is there a direct way to get an InventoryCell given an InventoryItem?  Or do you remember there not being one?
(12:53:50)<tametick>i think there isn't but that was mostly nefd's code
(12:53:55)<tametick>i didn't touch it much
(12:54:48)<jday_win>I can't blame you.
(12:55:00)<tametick>hehe
(12:55:40)<tametick>i think 1.1c is going to be the winner
(12:55:50)<tametick>we should tag it as "Cardinal Quest Classic"
(12:56:09)<tametick>for afterwords, when we have the deluxe edition 
(12:57:11)<jday_win>One of the most infuriating things is the backwards use of 'is'.  'is' is used for non-bools exclusively.
(12:57:37)<tametick>in the ui code you mean?
(01:03:24)<jday_win>Yep.  Not with consistency, mind -- but names like "isInCell" --
(01:03:34)<jday_win>isInCell tells you the type of cell it's in.
(01:03:54)<tametick>i feel for you
(01:04:25)<tametick>but you came at a relatively good time. that code now works quite well for the most part 
(01:04:47)<tametick>it was quite a struggle in the summer time, to no small part because of the gui code
(01:04:50)<tametick>and the funny thing is
(01:05:04)<tametick>flash has a built-in gui system
(01:05:06)<tametick>that we could have used instead of making our own
(01:06:40)<jday_win>This is all overcomplicated by leaps and bounds.  That's the chief problem.
(01:07:05)<jday_win>I usually find rolling my own to be easier than using a system's built in one, because it's really easy to do one -- you just have to avoid the temptation of using lots of classes and such.
(01:07:55)<jday_win>Well, got it swapping via an intermediate cell, and it helps no one bit.
(01:08:59)<tametick>:(
(01:09:26)<tametick>i won't stop you from refactoring it after 1.1c. i have no love for that code
(01:10:02)<jday_win>Now that I think about it, it's odd that it didn't help -- there's got to be something lurking here that uses one of those static vars --
(01:10:24)<tametick>would be cool to get that bug fixed in the current system but if it's an inordinate amount of work i'd suggest releasing 1.1c with the bug.
(01:11:18)<tametick>but i am hoping it really is just some static var gone rogue like you say & think there is a good chance it is just that
(01:14:30)<jday_win>We can just make a gameplay change and keep you from swapping them this way if they're in different grids.
(01:15:41)<tametick>yeah. maybe a solution will come to you in your sleep ;)
(01:15:47)<tametick>but i wouldn't worry too much about it
(01:23:16)<jday_win>Turns out that switching anything with anything, as long as either of them is in the inventory, causes the problem.
(01:23:24)<jday_win>Even switching inventory with inventory.
(01:31:03)<jday_win>Ok.  I'm going to check in a change with all switching forbidden.  You have to switch through an empty cell.
(01:31:12)<jday_win>It sucks, but it's better than losing an item.
(01:36:11)<tametick>does that always cause a problem?
(01:36:35)<tametick>i remember switching via dropping one object on another and it worked
(01:36:37)<jday_win>The only case where it doesn't is spell-with-spell.
(01:37:06)<tametick>in that case i suggest you don't outright outlaw it.
(01:37:13)<tametick>we can think of something when you wake up
(01:37:18)<tametick>it's not that big of a deal
(01:37:23)<jday_win>Push it out to testers at least.
(01:37:34)<jday_win>You can explain why it is this way.
(01:37:34)<tametick>i think crippling the interface that way isn't a good solution 
(01:37:41)<tametick>ok
(01:38:10)<jday_win>It's really not as bad as you'd think.
(01:38:29)<tametick>i will give it a go and we can figure out the plan after you wake up
(01:38:44)<jday_win>Sounds good.
(01:40:02)<jday_win>Another thing to ask them -- for each floor, see if they can comment on whether it felt too easy, too hard, or just right for their subjective tastes with the class they were playing.
(01:40:26)<tametick>ok
(01:42:15)<tametick>i think there are ~20-25 testers for 1.1c, i'll email all of them and say this might be the final version before release 
(02:00:00)<tametick>jday_win: btw if you are still i think you forgot to push 
(02:00:08)<tametick>*still here
(05:20:45)<jday_win> /facepalm
(05:20:53)<jday_win>Must have typed my password wrong.
(05:21:33)<jday_win>Everything takes a few seconds on this netbook.
(05:21:44)<jday_win>So it's all pushed and you can send it to testers, tametick.
(05:22:00)<tametick>hey
(05:22:05)<tametick>cool cheers
(05:22:13)<tametick>http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3111625
(05:22:18)<tametick>some feedback btw
(05:22:31)<tametick>- Ask for a confirmation before letting a spellcaster cast a fireball on himself (mistakes).
(05:22:33)<tametick>is this new?
(05:22:39)<tametick>i don't think it used to be possible
(05:24:46)<tametick>have to go to a birthday party now
(05:24:56)<tametick>but will do so when i get back
(05:25:09)<tametick>or perhaps tomorrow morning 
(05:25:10)<jday_win>Yeah, I think I know what that really is; it will cancel the spell, but immediately wait a turn.
(05:25:21)<jday_win>Similar to the go-down-stairs problem which I fixed.
(05:25:33)<tametick>ok
(05:27:34)<tametick>hrm
(05:27:48)<tametick>no big deal but i just noticed the potion belt is a few pixels too high
(05:28:00)<tametick>it is slightly obscured by the inventory screen
(05:30:01)<tametick>ah and this is an old bug - the decorations are always at full light, they never get dimmed when you step away from them
(05:30:51)<jday_win>I've noticed the problem with decorations.  Is the problem with the potion belt position new?
(05:31:06)<tametick>it didn't use to be that way but it's not new
(05:31:13)<tametick>maybe a month or so
(05:31:36)<tametick>never got around to fixing it, even tho it's just changing the y position 
(05:31:41)<tametick>should be super easy to fix
(05:33:09)<tametick>the problem with decoration also shouldn't be too tough, i think i am setting the dimness over the source bitmap data and copyPixel it, but copypixel might not care about that 
(05:38:07)<konijn_>back !
(05:38:13)<tametick>hey
(05:38:13)<konijn_>had a 'meeting' in a Belgian pib
(05:38:15)<konijn_>pub
(05:38:26)<konijn_>suffice to say that little coding will happen this afternoon :P
(05:41:28)<jday_win>But the most interesting code is written drunk, konijn!
(05:41:56)<jday_win>And then there's code like the inventory, which is written on god-knows-what-psychotropic.
(05:43:01)<tametick>LSD
(05:43:09)<jday_win>But konijn, you can certainly try playing, now that I've actually pushed!
(05:43:36)<tametick>you can also play in that link i put in the hacker news commenty
(05:43:44)<jday_win>tametick: So what do you think about the possibility of switching the bars?  I never thought about it, but I'm wondering now.
(05:43:50)<tametick>trying to get people to actually test the version i'm giving kong
(05:44:16)<tametick>jday_win: it's trivial to change, can try it out and see how you like it
(05:44:33)<tametick>just switch the x values on the bars
(05:44:58)<tametick>but it seems like nobody's finding any meaningful bugs anymore
(05:45:00)<tametick>which is good
(05:45:24)<tametick>a tutorial mode like 100 rogue's is something i was thinking of adding
(05:45:48)<tametick>basically break down the help screen to several pop up that come in appropriate times in the first level
(05:46:30)<tametick>also i was told several times about having more fanfare upon level up 
(05:46:55)<tametick>maybe we can make some colorful fireworks effect using the particle effect emitter we already have 
(05:46:59)<jday_win>Maybe glow and emit blue particles or something?
(05:47:04)<tametick>or that
(05:47:35)<tametick>oh there are also some cheap full-screen effects we aren't using too much atm
(05:47:47)<tametick>such as quake and flash
(05:47:59)<tametick>i think it flashes red already when you get hit and are close to death
(05:48:03)<tametick>don't know if quake is used
(05:48:31)<jday_win>Only upon winning.
(05:48:39)<tametick>oh right
(05:48:42)<tametick>good
(05:48:43)<jday_win>We could maybe quake whenever you're hit, but the ui moves too.
(05:48:56)<tametick>that might over use it 
(05:49:01)<tametick>but you can try
(05:49:06)<tametick>maybe a mild quake 
(05:49:52)<tametick>now i really must go
(06:20:02)<jday_win>I've got my strategy lined up for fixing the inventory the right way.
(06:22:33)<konijn_>shoot
(06:22:38)<konijn_>what is your approach ?
(06:25:31)<jday_win>Right now, InventoryItems contain their cell number.  I want to make them use a reference to their cell, which will in turn have a reference to their grid, which will know how to handle equipping/unequipping as necessary.
(06:26:02)<jday_win>By changing it that way, I only need to chuck the cell number and change it everywhere that causes errors.
(06:26:41)<jday_win>I stayed up until 6:00AM trying to fix it.  I just found that my solution -- don't allow item swapping -- doesn't fix it.
(06:27:00)<jday_win>Simply dropping an item in your inventory will cause you to lose the source slot permanently.
(06:27:18)<jday_win>There is literally no possible solution but a partial rewrite.
(06:32:42)<konijn_>I might be close to fixing the sluggisness on mobile
(06:34:45)<konijn_>the sluggishness is self imposed
(06:34:50)<konijn_>by the code
(06:34:53)<konijn_>not the platform
(06:35:01)<konijn_>probably to protect the player
(06:35:08)<konijn_>I would say for mobile version, to hell with that
(06:40:21)<jday_win>The delay before the next action?
(06:40:50)<jday_win>One option I've contemplated for the desktop version is always to accept a keypress or mouse click when it's 'fresh', but to insist upon the delay if it's not.
(06:41:44)<jday_win>Yeah, a Lua rewrite would let me chop the code down to half or even a third of its present size, but at the same time, I'm sort of with Ido in wanting to be done with it.
(06:46:30)<konijn_>yeah
(06:46:33)<konijn_>so lets get it done
(06:46:35)<konijn_>:P
(06:49:18)<jday_win>Amen.
(06:52:49)<konijn_>oh my 
(06:53:02)<konijn_>the game is 100 times funner to play when you can play it fast
(06:55:59)<jday_win>Hooray!
(06:56:07)<jday_win>That's -- wonderful news.
(06:56:19)<jday_win>I bet that for keyboard players I really should make that possible.
(06:59:05)<konijn_>I think for  mobile we are down to 
(06:59:10)<konijn_>1. Still cut on memory 
(06:59:19)<konijn_>2. Fix inventory ( no dragging )
(06:59:39)<konijn_>3. extend menu and help button ( if the user clicks on the filigrane next to it, the UI should know what to do )
(06:59:52)<konijn_>I will also test the game on iPhone this weekend
(06:59:57)<konijn_>dont think it'll be fun
(07:00:11)<jday_win>I'm on inventory right now, so once that's clean we can add the option you need.
(07:00:37)<jday_win>(3) is true in general; all of the spell buttons, for instance, should extend to the edge.  Very useful for mouse players.
(07:00:47)<konijn_>mouse and touch, yes
(07:07:13)<jday_win>That actually won't be that hard.  I already do fuzziness for targeting the player for waiting and such.
(07:08:18)<jday_win>We can just add a field to HxlButton called 'extendTargetBox' or something.  I've already been messing with exactly that code to make the menu and help button exist in the right place.
(07:09:18)<jday_win>How long are you expecting to work today?
(07:25:19)<konijn_>till around 10.30PM my time I would think
(07:25:34)<konijn_>so
(07:25:45)<konijn_>the game got to hard now I think
(07:26:03)<konijn_>I get constantly killed on floor 1
(07:26:08)<konijn_>too
(07:26:29)<jday_win>Which character?
(07:27:27)<konijn_>warrior
(07:27:28)<jday_win>(Also, do you notice slowdown as you explore the level?  I notice that we update every hxlobject with every update, namely, every tile and decoration -- do all the mouse clipping, etc., even though it's irrelevant.)
(07:27:48)<konijn_>not really
(07:28:00)<konijn_>warrior is supposed to be the easy class
(07:28:05)<konijn_>but it aint that easy really
(07:28:23)<jday_win>Ok.  On my netbook, I do.  As soon as I explore more than about one room, the framerate drops.  Jumps again on the next level.
(07:28:57)<jday_win>I'll try it as a warrior, try to see what's wrong.  In the meantime, I'm checking in a change that extends help and menu.
(07:30:35)<jday_win>Ok, that's available for you now.
(07:30:45)<jday_win>I'll extend inventory items once they're rewritten.
(07:31:26)<konijn_>great
(07:33:03)<konijn_>do you have mac ?
(07:33:13)<konijn_>ah
(07:33:16)<konijn_>you have wine
(07:33:18)<konijn_>never mind
(07:33:39)<jday_win>A linux laptop and a windows netbook.
(07:34:11)<konijn_>becaues adt ( air packager ) is a beast
(07:41:47)<jday_win>Is it possible that it will run better under Windows?
(07:50:55)<konijn_>eh
(07:51:00)<konijn_>its a beast on bot
(07:51:04)<konijn_>both
(07:51:05)<konijn_>crap
(07:51:12)<konijn_>my changes looked good in chrome
(07:51:32)<konijn_>but once on iPad it isnt that much better ;\
(07:54:42)<jday_win>Describe what's different, if you can.
(07:55:23)<jday_win>I wonder if I can find an iPad to borrow.  I've never had any interest in owning a smart mobile before this project, and I don't expect to have any interest in owning one after.
(07:57:01)<konijn_>sloooow
(07:57:11)<konijn_>and clicks or touches are getting lost
(07:57:15)<konijn_>not in the flash version
(07:57:32)<konijn_>if I 10 times really fast on flash, the player moves 10 times 
(07:57:44)<konijn_>on iPad the player moves once, twice if I'm lucky
(07:57:48)<konijn_>very frustrating
(08:06:18)<jday_win>What if you turn off tile rendering?
(08:06:25)<jday_win>Just to see?  Then again, with the five minute turnaround ...
(08:13:52)<konijn_>how do I turn off tile rendering ?
(08:14:56)<jday_win>The simplest thing would be to set visible = false on all tiles -- let me find you a line number --
(08:17:13)<jday_win>Level.hx lines 377, 408/409, 412, 430/432 should do it.
(08:17:35)<jday_win>(Comment them all out or change them all to false.)
(08:18:20)<jday_win>It's not necessarily the best test -- setting them invisible will also disable some of the other stuff I was talking about -- but if it's fast enough without tiles, we know which direction to go.
(08:18:28)<jday_win>If it's not, it pretty much has to be something else.
(08:22:30)<jday_win>I wonder how hard it would be to improve the "is this better?" function.  What it could do is when you equip something manually, it would compare it to what you had equipped previously, and decide from that which buffs you care about and which you don't.
(08:23:05)<jday_win>This game is all about polish; it's a mistake not to have core pieces of polish quite shining.
(08:23:30)<konijn_>I agree
(08:24:42)<jday_win>I felt completely vindicated when I read the ycombinator comments.  The one guy who loves the intro -- I mean, that's fantastic.
(08:41:44)<tametick>back
(08:44:02)<konijn_>greetomgs
(08:44:09)<konijn_>*greetings
(08:44:29)<konijn_>hmmm
(08:45:09)<jday_win>Greetomgs, tametick.
(08:45:18)<jday_win>(Solidarity.)
(08:46:07)<konijn_>Greetomgs does sound good
(08:50:00)<tametick>o/
(08:50:10)<tametick>that was a really boring birthday party
(08:50:18)<jday_win>No booze?
(08:50:21)<tametick>of a former neighbor of my girlfriend's
(08:50:23)<tametick>no
(08:50:39)<tametick>it was in an ice creme parlor 
(08:53:45)<tametick>jday_win: sounds good about your gui fix. it's really much more complicated than it should be
(09:02:24)<konijn_>so
(09:02:40)<konijn_>the UI is now responsive enough to my liking on iPad
(09:02:46)<konijn_>but
(09:02:59)<konijn_>I messed up the cursor indicating where the character should go
(09:03:13)<konijn_>at the outskirts it just doesnt want to go where I would like it to go
(09:03:15)<konijn_>bizaare
(09:03:18)<konijn_>bizarre
(09:03:23)<konijn_>but still
(09:03:34)<konijn_>it means with some luck that we do not have to rewrite the whole engine
(09:03:42)<konijn_>still crashes on first level, I still guess memory
(09:04:33)<konijn_>somtimes
(09:04:36)<konijn_>not always
(09:32:14)<jday_win>I plan to work on memory today.  It's not as sunny, so it shouldn't become an oven in here.
(09:32:40)<jday_win>I might not make it since desktop-relevant ui tweaks take precedence, but the memory issue is hugely important even without leaks.
(09:33:03)<jday_win>Did you get any response when you stopped drawing tiles?  I can make use of that info if you did.
(09:33:15)<konijn_>nah
(09:33:20)<konijn_>I hacked it a little
(09:33:26)<konijn_>stuff that would drive you insane
(09:33:36)<konijn_>on mousedown I just call act() immediately
(09:33:58)<jday>That makes sense to me.
(09:34:37)<konijn_>it works in the center of the dungeon 
(09:34:40)<konijn_>not in the stuff near it
(09:34:48)<jday>(Cuts one frame off the response time; that'll be between 15 and 30 ms on a typical desktop, which is enough to feel.)
(09:34:49)<konijn_>I mean on the outskirts of the dungeon
(09:35:10)<jday>So near the middle, what happens?
(09:35:48)<jday>And you mean, it stops working when you wander towards the edges of the map?  Or when you tap near the edge of the screen?
(09:41:58)<konijn_>player walks in the wrong direction
(09:42:00)<konijn_>it must be again
(09:42:12)<konijn_>some mouse position problem like for the spell and potion buttons
(09:45:07)<konijn_>*same
(09:45:19)<konijn_>or some
(09:50:39)<konijn_>heading home now
(09:50:40)<konijn_>later!
(10:19:10)<konijn>HOME!
(10:19:12)<konijn>home!
(10:35:47)<jday>Welcome!
(10:45:34)<jday>I bet we could do dlc for the desktop, too, if we think about ways to do it -- whether by some billing api or tying it to the code with which they bought the game.
(10:45:59)<jday>And I wonder whether Kongregate does dlc?  I'm pretty sure it does.
(10:46:51)<konijn>I wonder
(10:46:56)<konijn>I have some kong credits
(10:47:09)<konijn>I dont know if could spend them outside of their portal but through their API's
(10:47:44)<jday>It would be great if you could; even if not, to do it within their portal would be money.
(10:50:46)<jday>As an interface, we could do an Angband-style town with Zelda-style shops.
(10:51:43)<jday>Options are the easiest things to sell -- the option to skip levels, for increasing amounts of gold per level; the option to start with particular items; the option to start with more potions (for more gold per potion); the option to add diagonals, because why not.
(10:53:15)<jday>If we do a level editor, you could get cool things to put in your dungeons, and then have your friends play them.
(10:54:26)<jday>Getting really outlandish, now, there could even be a realtime mode.  CQ as Diablo -- I mean, why not?
(10:57:49)<konijn>http://developers.kongregate.com/docs/virtual-goods/kreds-api
(11:00:49)<konijn>hmmm
(11:01:11)<konijn>diablo huh :)
(11:06:19)<jday>Wow.  That is really easy.
(11:16:38)<jday>But really, how much more would we have to do for realtime than add pathing to targets, a couple more hotkeys (for targeting, say), and single-tick waiting for the player?
(11:17:18)<jday>Definitely a Premium feature, but it could be great for mobile too.
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/15 +++
(07:09:09)<tametick>morning
(07:10:36)<tametick>jday: kong have kreds
(07:10:46)<tametick>which is their MTX framework
(07:10:49)<tametick>pretty easy to use
(07:11:19)<jday>It'll be great to get to take advantage of that.
(07:11:23)<tametick>ah i see you found it yourself
(07:11:34)<tametick>yep that works on android too btw
(07:11:37)<tametick>but not ios
(07:11:53)<tametick>at least last i spoke to greg that was the status
(07:12:03)<jday>That's how the documentation looked.
(07:12:22)<tametick>we can start with that and think of something else for ios
(07:12:38)<tametick>it would definitely be the easier solution 
(07:12:53)<jday>So long as we abstract it just a touch, we should be able to plug it in to both; and if I have to write some C++ to talk to Apple, that seems worth it.
(07:13:17)<tametick>i did that with the littleindie version before (their api is c++  only)
(07:13:30)<tametick>i can walk you through it, it's pretty straight forward 
(07:13:55)<tametick>you can start a NativeProcess from Air and then communicate via sockets
(07:16:56)<tametick>my wifi router is failing 
(07:17:08)<tametick>can barely handle anything but irc 
(07:17:10)<tametick>arg
(07:17:15)<tametick>maybe resetting it again will help
(07:45:42)<jday>My inventory rewrite is coming along pretty well, I think, but there's no sense keeping at it all night.
(07:47:04)<jday>It's an amazing network of redundant classes; boiling it down more or less to item -> inventoryItem -> inventoryCell -> (optional button) (dialog)
(07:51:04)<jday>It'll pay for itself a dozen times over the moment we want to add anything to the game, though.
(07:51:34)<jday>And since even the most basic inventory actions are irrevocably broken at present -- well, it must be done.
(07:55:53)<tametick>sounds good :)
(07:56:11)<tametick>yeah it should have been rewritten a long time ago
(08:44:37)<tametick>jday: i think i will release the current version as 1.1c today and once you finish the new UI we can do 1.1d
(01:33:05)<tametick>[15:14:53]	<Joist>	tametick btw the reason I asked about freeze is the flavor text says "Freezes a monster in place for a short duration"
(01:33:07)<tametick>^
(01:33:27)<tametick>freeze description is not that great, since it's slowing down not stopping (like sleep)
(01:40:09)<Konijn>o/
(01:42:24)<tametick>[15:24:10]	<Joist>	tametick stairs text glitch - http://i.imgur.com/taRaJ.jpg
(01:42:26)<tametick>hey
(01:42:41)<tametick>jday: pinging you for new monster text bug
(01:42:49)<tametick>see screenshot above when you're online
(01:44:35)<tametick>[15:26:24]	<Joist>	yes, that happened but on the previous level
(01:44:37)<tametick>[15:26:26]	<tametick>	but it created a new monster somewhere
(01:44:39)<tametick>[15:26:36]	<Joist>	I had barely explored this level when I saw the text
(01:44:40)<tametick>[15:26:41]	<Joist>	it seemed to have carried over
(01:47:58)<tametick>[15:30:08]	<Joist>	a monster spawns and the text appears, if I enter the stairs before the text disappears the text doesn't fade anymore
(01:53:39)<Joist>tametick: hey
(01:53:44)<Joist>and here's a thing - http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=cq-dev
(01:53:47)<Joist>easier link
(01:54:10)<tametick>cool
(01:54:12)<tametick>thanks
(01:54:24)<Joist>anywho, a succubus varient invisibled themself
(01:54:28)<Joist>then I polymorphed them
(01:54:37)<Joist>then they were killed by my magic mirror clone
(01:54:54)<Joist>I don't know what happened but the mob just disappeared without taking the healthbar with them
(01:55:05)<tametick>oh
(01:55:07)<tametick>yeah
(01:55:09)<tametick>might be
(01:55:24)<tametick>that's a pretty hard core series of mob-changes :)
(01:55:36)<tametick>probably some small oversight 
(01:55:37)<Joist>ha yes
(01:55:37)<Joist>http://i.imgur.com/pxMsv.jpg
(01:56:05)<Joist>I may have enfeebled too but I don't think so
(01:56:43)<tametick>it was probably either the shadow walk or the polymorph
(01:57:33)<Joist>they shadow walk'd first, so I polymorphed them while they were invis. Just want to clarify that
(01:59:58)<Joist>also, the inventory isn't sliding completely out of view
(01:59:58)<Joist>http://i.imgur.com/Ae54L.jpg
(02:00:08)<Joist>there's the health bar too, on the next level
(02:00:52)<Joist>and my spells are displaying incorrectly
(02:01:05)<Joist>heal is casting magic mirror and polymorph is casting enfeeble
(02:02:31)<Joist>you can see I click on polymorph and it says to select a target for enfeeble - http://i.imgur.com/79Vg4.jpg
(02:03:05)<tametick>hrm :|
(02:03:07)<tametick>ok
(02:03:14)<Joist>break ALL the things
(02:03:20)<tametick>:O
(02:03:27)<tametick>nooooooooooooo
(02:04:04)<Joist>taking them out of the quickslot bar manually and then reinserting them fixed the problem
(02:04:12)<Joist>I have a feeling I know why it happened
(02:04:39)<Joist>hmm, not that. No idea
(02:06:25)<Joist>tametick: just killing a polymorphed mob causes it's health bar to linger
(02:06:50)<Joist>with a spell I think
(02:07:02)<tametick>noted
(02:07:34)<Joist>yep. Polymorph -> fireball -> lingering health bar
(02:07:48)<Joist>also I just got revenge on that bastard wolf spider
(02:07:54)<tametick>hehe
(02:07:59)<tametick>that will teach him
(02:13:36)<Konijn>so
(02:15:24)<Konijn>why are we not selling Cardinal Quest through App Store again ?
(02:16:02)<tametick>for macs you mean?
(02:16:28)<Konijn>yeah
(02:16:34)<Konijn>I know we went over this
(02:16:37)<Konijn>but I forgot
(02:16:56)<tametick>i'm kinda broke at the moment until i get the kongregate money and it costs 100 euros to be able to do that
(02:17:32)<Konijn>ah
(02:17:48)<Joist>tametick: really? that's monstrous
(02:17:50)<tametick>i am hoping to get it before i have to pay rent next month 
(02:17:56)<Joist>99 american dollars
(02:18:10)<Joist>99 euros is close to 200 american isn't it?
(02:18:12)<tametick>i think it changes on where you are 
(02:18:20)<tametick>nah it's like 130 or 140
(02:18:25)<Konijn>I think I could upload it though
(02:18:31)<tametick>135.91
(02:18:39)<Joist>still, it's a global license
(02:18:40)<tametick>do you have a developer account? 
(02:18:44)<Konijn>yes
(02:19:08)<tametick>you know how to create a dmg with air right?
(02:19:11)<Konijn>no
(02:19:19)<Konijn>do you have the command handy ?
(02:19:29)<Konijn>I know how to sign
(02:19:38)<Konijn>I could find out the dmg stuff
(02:19:44)<Konijn>but if you know already ;]
(02:20:04)<Konijn>http://help.adobe.com/en_US/air/build/WS789ea67d3e73a8b22388411123785d839c-8000.html
(02:20:15)<tametick>it's pretty easy
(02:20:25)<tametick>but i prefer to do it myself so i could update it easily 
(02:21:04)<tametick>i don't think waiting a couple of weeks will make that big of a difference 
(02:21:20)<Konijn>you would still have to wait a week to get your update in like Legends of Yore 
(02:21:28)<tametick>right
(02:24:37)<Joist>floor 7, memory is still low which is nice
(02:24:44)<Joist>did you fix a memory leak?
(02:24:51)<tametick>yeah the memory leaks should be fixed
(02:25:09)<tametick>as well as a bunch of crashing bugs
(02:26:13)<Joist>nice
(02:31:19)<Joist>erg I hate polymorphing an enemy into a harder one >.>
(02:31:46)<tametick>hehe
(02:31:52)<tametick>that happens very rarely 
(02:33:02)<Joist>Polymorph is my goto move this run
(02:33:21)<Joist>that's the nice thing about having mostly powerful spells, you can just roll with whatever you get
(02:33:39)<Joist>if you nerf a bunch of them there will always be spells which you really want to find and all the rest are just filler
(02:34:46)<tametick>they are not that well balanced 
(02:35:41)<Konijn>I like the bigger menu buttons
(02:35:42)<Konijn>nice!
(02:35:53)<Konijn>one less thing to do for mobile
(02:36:02)<tametick>bigger menu buttons?
(02:36:05)<tametick>i didn't notice
(02:36:14)<Konijn>well
(02:36:21)<tametick>ah
(02:36:24)<Joist>polymorph werewolf into minotaur -> cry
(02:36:27)<Konijn>if you click to the right of help or the left of menu
(02:36:27)<tametick>help and menu
(02:36:30)<Konijn>yep
(02:36:33)<tametick>got you
(02:36:46)<tametick>i thought you mean the "new game" "credits" etc
(02:36:55)<tametick>you know the actual options in the menu
(02:36:59)<Konijn>ah
(02:37:03)<Konijn>yeah
(02:37:15)<Konijn>not sure that will pass apple review
(02:37:20)<Konijn>we'll see what they say
(02:37:39)<Konijn>they might want an actual options menu
(02:37:47)<Konijn>instead of putting it top right
(02:39:43)<tametick>you mean for sounds and music?
(02:39:57)<Joist>polymorph: Minotaur -> Minotaur -> Minotaur -> Minotaur            ._. so close to death
(02:40:07)<tametick>haha
(02:40:24)<tametick>should put a minotauer chieftain it can polymorph to
(02:40:32)<Joist>dick move
(02:40:39)<Joist>very roguelike though ;)
(02:40:40)<tametick>:p
(02:40:48)<Joist>btw does damage effect fireball damage?
(02:41:03)<tametick>no
(02:41:18)<tametick>FB depends only on your character levle
(02:41:34)<Joist>ok, then I'll drop this -2 speed weapon
(02:41:52)<Konijn>tametick : yes
(02:42:14)<tametick>we can see
(02:44:57)<Joist>oh hey, I won
(02:45:00)<Joist>go me :)
(02:45:25)<tametick>\o/
(02:45:37)<tametick>did the end game sequence go ok?
(02:46:04)<Joist>the minotaur didn't enter the purple portal where I killed him
(02:46:15)<Joist>but apart from that it seemed like it did
(02:46:58)<tametick>what did you think of balance in general throughout the game?
(02:47:23)<Joist>Hard to say, I was kind of abusing the spell system :)
(02:47:37)<Joist>does room have >2 enemies? if yes cast enchant
(02:47:50)<Joist>then polymorph or cast a magic mirror clone
(02:47:58)<Joist>then fireball :)
(02:48:26)<Joist>if it's just one mob I go polymorph -> enchant -> magic mirror stall -> polymorph etc until I get something killable
(02:48:52)<tametick>it plays quite differnet as thief or fighter 
(02:48:52)<Joist>but finding optimal spell tactics is half the fun in games like this I find
(02:48:55)<tametick>i normally play thief 
(02:50:07)<Joist>thing is combat is dice rolling whereas magic casting is strategy
(02:50:31)<Joist>with the right spells you can take on 5 hard mobs, but you have to play them right
(02:51:13)<Joist>oh thief gets a damage bonus when invis?
(02:51:15)<Joist>I like that
(02:53:30)<Joist>attaching brings you out of stealth? i didn't notice that earlier
(02:56:13)<Joist>OGOD
(02:56:30)<Joist>shadow walk switched with blink and I teleported into a group of mobs >.>
(03:03:04)<Joist>shadow walk + bless weapon + haste = yes
(03:05:16)<Joist>I just got slowed by 3 spiders. 1 of my turns = about 5 of theirs >.>
(03:10:04)<tametick>hehe
(03:10:19)<tametick>time to use your speed potions!
(03:10:40)<Joist>btw, I've noticed that charmed monsters can cast spells through walls
(03:10:47)<Joist>tametick: do pots take a turn to use?
(03:11:06)<tametick>i believe they do
(03:12:05)<Joist>I shadow walked and hasted
(03:12:09)<Joist>then charmed
(03:12:13)<Joist>also healed
(03:12:17)<Joist>it was a close call
(03:13:44)<tametick>:)
(03:14:44)<Joist>I'm going to have to play with haxe now
(03:15:03)<Joist>what's the framerate of this game at 1080p?
(03:15:23)<Joist>cpu drawn graphics right?
(03:26:31)<Joist>._. minotaur 1 shots me
(03:26:51)<Joist>and I can't kill him with 2 backstabs, utilising my 2 shadow walk spells
(03:28:37)<Joist>erg dead
(03:28:46)<Joist>need to be more careful of minotaurs
(03:35:15)<tametick>Joist: it's locked at 30 fps
(03:35:48)<Joist>does it ever dip?
(03:35:48)<tametick>it keeps that speed on my computer (2.4ghz dual core 2)
(03:35:57)<Joist>nice
(03:36:07)<tametick>in release mode, not enough for me to notice
(03:36:08)<Joist>I know the most expensive part of flash is drawing
(03:36:35)<tametick>it's fast enough even on a 1ghz pentium 3
(03:37:13)<Joist>that's neat
(03:37:19)<tametick>jday: i think you know this already but just in case: http://twitter.com/FanaticToxic/status/125227923824324608
(03:37:46)<Joist>are you upscaling the game window or rendering upscaled sprites?
(03:39:57)<tametick>upscaling the window 
(03:40:07)<tametick>it's all rendered on a 640x480 buffer
(03:40:22)<Joist>that's not bad
(03:41:20)<Joist>tametick: I'm finding warrior to be the hardest class btw
(03:41:37)<tametick>really?
(03:41:47)<tametick>i guess 1.1c made thief a bit easier 
(03:41:59)<Joist>no regeneration is a killer. And you can't just pick off enemies safely like the thief
(03:42:09)<tametick>ranged monsters should even the playing field a bit
(03:42:30)<tametick>especially for the wizard
(03:43:05)<Joist>it wasn't an issue if you could turn invis to ditch them, or cast your own long range spell. Or use a pet (charmed monster or magic mirror)
(03:43:09)<Joist>or fear them
(03:44:26)<Joist>also, as a warrior, I have lousy spell regen time. I can't really keep berserk or bless weapon up through a battle
(03:44:29)<tametick>how about a monster that dispells you magic?
(03:45:53)<Joist>you mean it locks up your magic so you can't use it?
(03:46:36)<Joist>so, I can win with the wizard, get down to minotaur level with the thief and get to ape level with the fighter (just realised that's the real class name)
(03:46:54)<tametick>no just cancels your casted spells
(03:47:06)<tametick>mirrors/charm/buffs/debuffs
(03:47:15)<Joist>I would probably carry a polymorph for them then. And stealth them with the thief
(03:47:20)<tametick>but a "silence" spell that does that is also a good idea
(03:47:53)<tametick>oh i forgot to change the name of these monsters from apes to elementals :/
(03:48:00)<tametick>er
(03:48:01)<tametick>golems
(03:48:05)<Joist>heh
(03:48:08)<Joist>oh
(03:53:15)<tametick>i guess they look enough like apes to keep that label
(03:53:43)<Joist>I didn't really question it
(03:54:39)<Joist>here's where I get stuck with the fighter
(03:54:49)<Joist>I have low health, I can't engage. I can't do anything :(
(03:55:15)<Joist>with the thief I can sneak around and try to take them out one by one, with the wizard I can stall and recharge my fire ball
(03:57:06)<tametick>there are some tricks that make fighting less dangerous 
(03:57:22)<Joist>so far I have
(03:57:29)<Joist>fight in doorways, buff
(03:57:37)<tametick>fighting in corridors, making your moves in a way that gets you the first shot, etc
(03:57:38)<tametick>right
(03:57:39)<Joist>if there are ranged units pull back
(03:57:47)<tametick>it's possible to win with the fighter :)
(03:58:21)<tametick>most people don't play very carefully which is why the fighter is an easier starting class
(03:58:47)<tametick>in many/most games like diablo or torchlight you basically very rarely have to be careful 
(03:59:05)<tametick>you can run straight into a room full of enemies and start hacking
(03:59:19)<Joist>true
(04:01:21)<tametick>did you ever play desktop dungeons?
(04:01:25)<Joist>my blood pressure shoots through the roof when I have no health potions :)
(04:01:30)<Joist>no I didn't
(04:01:35)<tametick>it's really good
(04:01:42)<Joist>it's on my todo list
(04:02:28)<Joist>I don't allow myself that my game time though. I haven't played much torchlight either
(04:03:59)<tametick>i played it a bunch the first few days
(04:04:04)<tametick>got it the same day it came out
(04:04:09)<tametick>but got bored quickly 
(04:04:12)<Joist>torchlight?
(04:04:20)<tametick>yes
(04:04:21)<Joist>ah
(04:04:24)<tametick>it's a good game but too mindless
(04:04:30)<tametick>(like diablo)
(04:04:40)<Joist>yeah
(04:04:47)<tametick>and isn't really challenging at all
(04:05:07)<tametick>i very quickly switched to the hardest level for it be at least a bit fun
(04:05:33)<Joist>add MXL to your list of hack and slash games to play. It's a d2:lod mod which completely redoes everything in the game. New quests/charms/classes/mobs/areas everything
(04:05:35)<Joist>http://modsbylaz.hugelaser.com/
(04:05:54)<Joist>it really amazing, my play time on mxl was huge compared to vanilla d2:lod
(04:05:58)<Joist>it's*
(04:06:08)<tametick>don't think i will
(04:06:13)<tametick>i have enough games on my queue
(04:06:33)<Joist>fair enough, but this deserves to jump the queue imo ;)
(04:06:38)<tametick>and i didn't really like d2 much to begin with
(04:07:14)<tametick>i played a lot of d1 but that's mostly due to me being 14 when it came out
(04:07:41)<Joist>ah
(04:08:09)<tametick>games that push your reward button like that and WoW turn me off
(04:08:17)<tametick>the "just 1 more level" effect
(04:08:35)<tametick>i don't like being manipulated like that to spend more time in it than i should
(04:08:48)<tametick>and really playing diablo/torchlight is more wasting time than spending time
(04:09:22)<Joist>That's fair enough
(04:09:28)<Joist>I don't want to push it but mxl is much different. Leveling is quick and the real challenge comes from special dungeon levels which are like sidequests.
(04:10:08)<Joist>I prefer the strategy side of things
(04:10:14)<Joist>planning a good build
(04:11:34)<Joist>tametick: now that I've played this a bit more I don't think heal is such an op spell
(04:11:56)<tametick>oh?
(04:12:03)<Joist>I can't trust it to be read in battle compared to a pot
(04:12:18)<Joist>I usually just use it to bump my health up between battles
(04:12:34)<Joist>When I lose having heal or not usually doesn't matter
(04:13:41)<tametick>true. having the monster spawn when you're idling fixed a lot of the heal issues
(04:14:59)<Joist>HA going down one floor I spawned on a spell
(04:15:56)<Joist>this game would turn into an amazing doom clone
(04:16:12)<Joist>first person, going through the dungeons with the mobs, using spells :)
(04:28:41)<tametick>hehe
(04:37:16)<Joist>yeah, wizard is easiest, I won again :)
(04:48:58)<Joist>tametick: new bug. sleep is bound to an equipped spell slot but the slot appears empty and I can't switch it out
(04:49:13)<Joist>the spell image is rendered in the middle of the screen instead
(05:17:07)<tametick>known bug
(05:18:57)<jday>Joist: A dreadful bug, at that.  Very resistant to small fixes.
(05:19:11)<Joist>ah cool
(05:19:13)<tametick>jday: howdy
(05:19:17)<jday>Joist: What would make Wizard more fun for you?  (If tametick hasn't asked.)
(05:19:31)<Joist>wizard? I love the wizard already
(05:19:46)<jday>tametick: So the apes _are_ supposed to be golems?  I was thoroughly tempted.  Well, then!  It will be done.
(05:20:05)<tametick>jday: they started their lives as apes
(05:20:43)<tametick>when stephen was working on replacing my programmer art pixel graphics for them he changed them to golems and i forgot to change the name in the game 
(05:21:29)<tametick>jday: did you see the other issues raised by Joist before? i've pasted some before he joined the channel 
(05:22:17)<tametick>oh and 1.1c is out
(05:22:55)<tametick>the inv refactoring can be slated for 1.2 (or 1.1d depending on how much we change otherwise)
(05:23:48)<tametick>i was thinking 1.2 can be more feature-release and the 1.1s most bug fixing 
(05:43:37)<jday>Joist: "I was kind of abusing the spell system" -- spell systems are there for you to abuse!
(05:44:09)<Joist>It feels like abuse in a roguelike though :)
(05:45:22)<jday>You should play Brogue, if you never have.  I love how that game is balanced, because you get absurdly overpowered -- but there's still going to be something that will kill you.
(05:46:17)<jday>Pity about the stair text positioning.  I have a fix for that, I think, but didn't know we were about to release.  I'm perfectly happy to have that be part of the bugfix patch -- certainly not a gamekiller.
(05:50:37)<jday>I've got this big list of features to check off.  Some of these will be great fun to do -- fanfare and fireworks when you gain a level, some more spell tweaks.
(05:52:53)<jday>Also, I was thinking of splitting Freeze and Sleep into two spells.  Sleep would stop all movement for a duration or until the victim takes damage; freeze would cut off half of the current movement points.
(05:52:59)<jday>Right now their effect is identical.
(05:53:38)<Joist>err, it isn't
(05:54:02)<Joist>jday: atm freeze reduces their movement points by 3 and sleep stops their movement completely
(05:54:12)<Joist>at least in 1.1c
(05:54:52)<Joist>tametick: back me up :)
(05:55:20)<jday>Well now where did I get that idea -- you're absolutely right.
(05:56:08)<Joist>\o/ I thought they were same from reading the flavor text
(05:56:25)<jday>Probably the same reason I thought so.  Well, I'll probably increase the duration of sleep and make it so they wake up when they're hit (and maybe at random otherwise).  Make it more about avoiding combat.
(05:56:57)<jday>And freeze has the problem that it stops guys with <3 speed and does progressively less against the enemies you need it on.
(05:57:17)<Joist>I use freeze a lot on minotaurs
(05:57:40)<Joist>I prefer fear over sleep though
(05:57:46)<Joist>get those bastards away from me
(05:57:50)<jday>The speed system in general has that problem -- I'd love to redo it so +6 speed (or something) corresponds to being twice as fast, on an exponential scale, but that would take a kind of balance work I'm not up for.
(05:58:06)<jday>I've been thinking about making minotaurs attack fleeing monsters to snap them out of it.
(05:58:16)<jday>I think that would add some really cool flavor.
(05:58:36)<Joist>heh
(05:59:02)<jday>You like the invisible enemies?
(05:59:26)<Joist>yes, it's good
(05:59:47)<Joist>it would be amusing if enemies could pick up and use the spells. 
(06:00:09)<Joist>let me ask you something, are you guys using a standard OOP hierarchy? or some sort of data driven model
(06:00:24)<jday>If it has the word 'standard' in it, that ain't it.
(06:00:36)<jday>But it's closer to the data driven side of things.
(06:01:08)<Joist>I would imagine roguelikes and turn based games in general would be prime targets for that sort of thing
(06:02:48)<jday>I'm most interested in borrowing from games like Gauntlet for CQ -- on the whole, roguelike-intensity play is my goal, but elements from arcade games mesh better.
(06:03:06)<jday>e.g., I could imagine having bonus rooms with a turn time limit.
(06:04:31)<Joist>that'd be neat
(06:04:50)<jday>But yeah.  To decide what they're going to do, monsters look at their list of abilities and make a choice.  There's no hierarchy of mobs.
(06:05:09)<jday>It'll take some refinement to do everything we could possibly want, but it's got a lot of potential.
(06:05:58)<Joist>very interesting
(06:06:17)<Joist>I've come to a shuddering grinding halt reading about entity/component systems
(06:06:51)<Joist>they seem theoretically amazing but practically unimplementable without concessions
(06:07:20)<jday>What you have to do if you use them is make sure to register behaviors separately from components.  Then you activate behaviors based on them.
(06:07:37)<jday>You can't do a standard oop or procedure style with components -- you might as well just use members, then.
(06:08:00)<jday>i.e., having the data implies the behavior, not the other way around.  It's just Java-style oop inverted.
(06:08:35)<Joist>yeah, going only half the way screws everything up
(06:08:55)<Joist>inter-system communication is another sticking point
(06:09:33)<jday>An example?
(06:10:45)<Joist>let me think of one
(06:11:24)<Joist>this seemed like an issue earlier but now I'm completely blanking on why
(06:27:44)<tametick>Joist: sorry was afk
(06:27:49)<tametick>what was i to back up?
(06:28:05)<Joist>the freeze/sleep difference
(06:28:13)<tametick>ah
(06:28:16)<tametick>of course they are
(06:28:25)<tametick>would be pretty silly to have the same spell with 2 names
(06:37:43)<jday>They have the same flavor text, effectively, which I will fix.
(06:44:00)<jday>tametick: So what kind of feedback are you getting on 1.1c?
(06:44:26)<tametick>jday: i've past on most of it to you
(06:44:38)<Joist>from me: easier to tell when you are invisible. spells look nicer
(06:44:38)<jday>Ah, ok.
(06:45:08)<tametick>some people reported the ui issues we already know of
(06:45:12)<tametick>nothing serious otherwise
(06:51:56)<jday>tametick, Joist: What would you think of a Regen spell?  It would take a spell slot and it would be a lesser healing spell that always automatically cast itself when ready.
(06:52:16)<jday>(I'm trying to think of ways to extend dynamics without adding new components.)
(06:53:07)<Joist>I'd use it
(06:53:18)<Joist>but I think the current heal spell would be better
(06:53:35)<jday>It doesn't have to beat heal -- just has to beat other spells, for certain builds.
(06:54:16)<Joist>I'd equip it as long as I didn't have heal
(06:54:24)<Joist>so it'd beat all the current spells except one :)
(06:55:06)<jday>Another problem the game has -- the only stat in your character choice that really matters once you have equipment, is vitality.  Seems like the bonuses generally overwhelm your starting values -- isn't that so?
(06:55:42)<Joist>ah fuck
(06:55:50)<Joist>got the spell glitch
(06:56:16)<Joist>jday: I feel the slow spell recharge on the fighter
(06:56:22)<Joist>even later in the game
(06:56:28)<jday>Ok, good.
(06:57:15)<jday>Can you think of any other spells you'd particularly like to see?  What about passive spells or passive equipment bonuses?
(06:57:43)<Joist>a heal spell for each class would be neat
(06:57:54)<Joist>heal on enemy kill for fighter
(06:58:06)<Joist>heal on backstab? or instead of backstab? for thief
(06:58:38)<jday>I'll think about it, but I definitely agree.  Something that encourages the classes to play their roles.
(06:59:20)<jday>I was thinking the fighter could get spirit for killing things in melee (and maybe for taking damage).
(06:59:43)<Joist>a permanent bonus? or a temporary stat bonus?
(06:59:48)<Joist>a reward for chain killing?
(07:00:09)<jday>A boost to current spell charge.
(07:00:26)<jday>And I like the reward for chain kills -- hard to express it in the interface, but would play well.
(07:01:14)<jday>Or -- temporary stat boosts on kill, yeah, I like that.  So your first kill gives you +1 attack, +1 speed, and so does the next one, and so does the next one -- that could be really cool.
(07:01:39)<jday>Or if killing bumped the berserk timer back up.
(07:01:40)<Joist>yeah
(07:01:49)<Joist>yes, that would be great
(07:01:58)<Joist>it's hard to keep berserk up on the fighter
(07:21:04)<tametick>did you see the spells we talked about before jday?
(07:21:54)<tametick>oh, one more thing: you know critical hits and misses in d&d? if you roll a 20 on you to-hit roll (%5) you get a "critical hit" which does (iirc) double damage
(07:22:10)<tametick>we can use that idea and flavor it to the different classes 
(07:22:36)<tametick>mix it with your idea
(07:24:05)<tametick>your idea is also neat and fairly uncommon - playing in your class's "spirit" give very temporary buffs 
(07:24:27)<jday>tametick: Which spells did you talk about earlier?  (Or how far up the log?)
(07:24:34)<tametick>the more enemies you pass by invisible increase your backstab modifier? 
(07:24:50)<tametick>a vampiric touch kind of spell
(07:25:03)<tametick>while active attacking gives you hp
(07:25:15)<tametick>what else? Joist suggested raise corpse
(07:25:44)<Joist>mentioned traps
(07:25:47)<tametick>it's kinda similar to mirror image but different enough to be intersting (you minion depends on the monster's stats instead of yours)
(07:25:50)<tametick>yeah traps
(07:25:54)<tametick>we talked about those before 
(07:26:12)<Joist>tametick: wait, this was in private chat
(07:26:17)<jday>Raise corpse would be great for a monster -- maybe a minotaur -- bring it back with very little defense, no spirit, and very slow.
(07:26:20)<tametick>but we can integrate them into the spell system instead of having yet another separate mechanic
(07:26:29)<tametick>i maybe that's why jday didn't see it :p
(07:26:58)<Joist>probably :)
(07:27:10)<tametick>i.e. have one of the spells be set trap, instead of a separate thing you need to learn about 
(07:27:20)<tametick>i rather keep the basic structure of the game simple
(07:27:39)<tametick>not like crawl with each class having a totally different interface for all its unique abilities 
(07:28:08)<Joist>poisons too?
(07:28:24)<tametick>ah yeah
(07:28:26)<Joist>poison your dagger, hit a mob and they take x damage per turn for y turns
(07:28:57)<tametick>also poison arrow as a damage dealing spell. right now only fireballs directly cause damage among the spells
(07:29:20)<tametick>i was also giving more thought to ranged combat (which might be better to keep monster-only)
(07:29:40)<jday>I actually like the idea of damage dealing spells that respect defense -- they'd really just be ranged weapons that fit in spells lots.
(07:29:58)<tametick>maybe make the ranged attack only in cardinal directions, that would keep the uniqueness of the fireball-hurling genies 
(07:30:22)<jday>That could certainly work.
(07:30:22)<tametick>yeah and the ranged attacks could respect defense while spells don't.
(07:30:37)<tametick>i want ranged attacks and damage dealing ranged spells to not be the same
(07:31:00)<tametick>basically a spell is something unique that changes the course of battle where as a ranged attack is common like a normal attack
(07:31:26)<tametick>we can have the apes throwing stones like you suggested the other day
(07:31:46)<tametick>let me go through the spritesheet i sent you. Joist do you still have that imgur link?
(07:31:58)<tametick>ah here it is
(07:31:59)<tametick>http://imgur.com/k5FRf,wFjfo,WLd4o,uBrf9,UNwkD,2JW51
(07:33:06)<tametick>http://i.imgur.com/UNwkD.png -> the wraith (4th row from below) can have a ranged attack pretty easily 
(07:33:28)<tametick>maybe the dragons or whatever they are can have it too
(07:33:36)<tametick>like a hydralisk in starcraft 
(07:34:04)<tametick>spit tusks at you
(07:34:25)<tametick>that new kobold with the sword and shield can have a chance of blocking your attack?>
(07:34:47)<jday>Also: ranged attacks will be subject to damage buffs.
(07:35:24)<tametick>we can use the same spell/sprit mechanic for it, he just recharges and cast "block" like any other spell, only he casts it when you attack him instead of his turn
(07:35:50)<tametick>or maybe he casts it the turn before and we only indicate it graphically when you try to hit him
(07:35:59)<jday>So a timed, rather than a probabilistic, block.
(07:36:05)<tametick>yeah
(07:36:12)<jday>No matter your attack strength, you will miss.  I can see that working.
(07:36:18)<tametick>that would mean often the first attack in the battle will be block 
(07:36:22)<tametick>ed
(07:36:54)<tametick>which kinda makes sense, as you charge at him he raises his shield and blocks your weapon, and after that it's close ranged combat 
(07:37:04)<tametick>just from a "story" point of view
(07:37:16)<jday>I might not want ranged attacks to be cardinal, honestly.  It makes it harder for monsters like these to cooperate.  (I'd like a bowkobold, too.)
(07:37:21)<tametick>mechanically it will be just like any other spell 
(07:37:32)<tametick>ok
(07:37:39)<tametick>we can try both
(07:37:47)<tametick>i was just thinking, how do we give the player a ranged weapon otherwise
(07:37:55)<tametick>but maybe we just don't
(07:38:12)<jday>I want rogues, at the very least, to have bows.  They look like they should.
(07:38:20)<jday>It can just be a spell that requires no spirit points.
(07:38:21)<tametick>or the rangers
(07:38:44)<tametick>yeah but the point is that it's not a spell
(07:38:47)<tametick>need to think about it
(07:39:10)<tametick>yeah bow kobold is the obvious choice 
(07:39:46)<tametick>the spear kobold can have a spear throwing spell that really works like a spell
(07:39:54)<tametick>since you don't throw your spear very often
(07:40:00)<jday>And maybe a monster that protects other monsters (but not itself) from magic?
(07:40:16)<tametick>these witches at the end can be thopse
(07:40:25)<tametick>we can scatter them across the dungeon
(07:40:31)<jday>I was thinking that spear kobolds could maybe attack over other monsters; but yeah, that's hard to express, and throwing a spear could be cool.
(07:40:33)<tametick>each color has a different set of spells
(07:40:59)<tametick>maybe for these witches we can make them have almost no attack/damage
(07:41:22)<tametick>but crazy spirit and just have each of the 4 with a different load of spells
(07:41:49)<tametick>one would have buffing spells for her friends, one would have debuffing spells on you, etc
(07:42:15)<jday>They would be fun, and a good complement to lots of other monsters.
(07:42:28)<tametick>ah, a dispel spell, forgot about that. not that useful for the player but useful for the enemies 
(07:42:43)<tametick>yeah one of them could be a necromancer-type 
(07:42:44)<jday>If it functioned as 'dispell all' when the player cast it, it could work.
(07:42:48)<tametick>reviving monsters that you've killed
(07:43:06)<tametick>yeah, especially if we have more casting monsters
(07:43:08)<tametick>which we should
(07:43:20)<jday>Joist: Is magic mirror clear enough when sorcery elementals cast it?
(07:43:46)<Joist>yes, it's either that or a teleport spell
(07:43:53)<tametick>if we treat each monster sprite as a different one we have loads of them
(07:44:20)<jday>tametick: Yep.  I love the current approach -- strong similarities across type, but little, important differences.
(07:44:36)<tametick>4x4+2(1 new kobold and 1 new minotaur) new ones from stephen and a few we can take from ben's
(07:45:05)<tametick>and the new ones form stephen almost all look like spell casters of some sort
(07:45:23)<tametick>except these brutes at 3rd row before the end
(07:45:46)<tametick>but the wraiths, witches & dragonlings all look like potential spell casters
(07:46:24)<tametick>i love those dragonlings, so cute
(07:47:15)<tametick>the most important pitfall i wish to avoid is making the game more complicated and adding new core mechanics 
(07:47:21)<jday>I'd be willing to support 2x2 monsters, too, if you like those sprites.
(07:47:24)<tametick>new enemies, new spells, etc is fine
(07:47:41)<jday>Absolutely.  That's why I want ranged weapons to be spells for interface reasons.
(07:47:58)<tametick>hrm
(07:48:01)<tametick>you have a point
(07:48:15)<tametick>so we just give the apes a rock spell with a really small cooldown?
(07:48:30)<tametick>having 0 cooldown kinda makes it feel like not a spell after all tho
(07:48:46)<tametick>and then we have spell-giving weapons if we extend that to the players
(07:48:49)<tametick>have to think it over
(07:48:56)<tametick>oh!
(07:49:51)<tametick>magic wands! they give you another spell (maybe with no cooldown, or very little cooldown), take up your weapon slot and can only cast x number of spells
(07:49:57)<tametick>than a bow is just another wand!
(07:50:11)<tametick>and we get wands at the same time for free
(07:50:51)<tametick>so a bow, like a wand, is just a crappy melee weapon that gives you another spell for only x uses
(07:51:48)<tametick>we might need to test out the ammo part. might work well even with "unlimited ammo"  (i.e same as spells now)
(07:51:56)<jday>Personally, I'd see no problem with simply having a bow or a wand _be_ a spell.  No reason to keep you from having melee, is there?
(07:52:10)<tametick>hrm
(07:52:12)<tametick>that's another idea
(07:52:45)<tametick>yeah might be better. and the difference between a bow/wand and a normal spell is that it charges really quick but have limited ammo?
(07:53:13)<tametick>i just think if you shoot every turn it become tedious 
(07:53:32)<tametick>so that's what i want to prevent with that ammo idea 
(07:53:34)<jday>It could have a fixed, i.e., not spirit-dependant cooldown.
(07:53:44)<Joist>also you could give classes damage bonuses to promote proper usage. Rogue does more damage with "bow" spells. Wizard does more damage with "magic" spells
(07:53:45)<tametick>yeah
(07:53:57)<jday>Or we could do ammo that you just have to have in your inventory.
(07:54:30)<tametick>i don't like that idea that much, it makes you go into the inventory, pack up arrows etc
(07:54:40)<tametick>instead of just having a number of shots to the bow
(07:55:08)<tametick>picking up a new bow of the same type can replenish it, like picking up a weapon you already have in a fps
(07:55:18)<jday>Arrows could be another globally tracked thing like gold.  (I prefer infinite shots to all of these, I think, but they're worth considering.)
(07:55:21)<tametick>but again this is something that requires more thought put into it
(07:55:45)<jday>As a ranger, you start with 40 arrows and have to find more.
(07:55:45)<tametick>becuase it's a totally new mechanic that you need to learn
(07:56:09)<jday>One advantage is that with the little indicator there, you see it counting down, and you see it going up when you find more.
(07:56:10)<tametick>jday: in that case we need to find a better way to do shooting
(07:56:34)<tametick>yeah but the counter can also be on the wand/bow icon 
(07:56:39)<tametick>like we have with potions 
(07:57:02)<tametick>you also see it going up immediately 
(07:57:32)<tametick>but anyway need to think this through, it's adding a new mechanic which means it makes the game less approachable and harder to play 
(07:57:53)<tametick>and if we're not careful it can lead to eventually losing the arcade feeling of the game
(07:58:11)<jday>I think unlimited ammo is fine.  Sort of a Gauntlet thing.
(07:58:26)<jday>They just wouldn't be a substitute for melee -- you'd soften enemies up, is all.
(07:59:19)<tametick>yeah but it would be tedious to play a character like that
(07:59:45)<tametick>every turn you have to carefully aim your mouse at these tiny enemy sprites 
(08:00:02)<tametick>right now it's a lot more streamlines 
(08:00:07)<tametick>*streamlined 
(08:00:12)<jday>I have a plan for that.
(08:00:24)<jday>For firing, it would highlight the closest monster to the cursor.
(08:00:29)<tametick>any way i think we should postpone that one for later since there is still plenty to do before that 
(08:00:33)<jday>Keyboard would add tab targeting.
(08:00:47)<jday>Bows don't go in cq classic, regardless.
(08:00:51)<tametick>yeah but imagine a mouse only player
(08:01:00)<tametick>he need to click the spell icons
(08:01:03)<tametick>then the monster
(08:01:07)<tametick>then the spell icon again
(08:01:11)<tametick>then the monster again
(08:01:16)<tametick>it's still tedious 
(08:01:18)<jday>Spell icons will have their bounding boxes cast over to the edge of the screen; that will help.
(08:01:37)<tametick>and it still makes the game more complicated regardless of interface
(08:01:48)<jday>Personally when I play with mouse I use hotkeys + mouse, but yeah, mouse only needs to be fun.
(08:02:16)<tametick>me too but it needs to be playable with mouse only
(08:02:37)<tametick>anyway there are plenty of much easier decisions to make before that 
(08:03:00)<tametick>so we can put that question on the back burner and let it simmer for a while before coming to it again
(08:03:14)<tametick>but i would personally be against it being a common weapon
(08:03:50)<tametick>adding wands (one of which is a bow) is a much smaller departure from the previous design
(08:04:06)<tametick>oh one more issue i want to raise
(08:04:17)<tametick>right now monsters have intrinsic damage 
(08:04:45)<tametick>i suggest removing that (having the default 1 damage if unarmed) and just give them weapons like we're giving them spells
(08:05:04)<tametick>that would make it a bit more consistent 
(08:05:23)<tametick>which in turn tends to have positive long terms effects on emergent gameplay
(08:07:40)<jday>I was thinking there could be a skill to wielding weapons; fighter would be highest, then thief, then wizard.  If your skill is low, high damage buffs from weapons drop slightly.
(08:07:50)<jday>It could even be called Strength to make the metaphor clear.
(08:08:21)<jday>And yes, I like the idea of giving monsters weapons.  Thanks for that.
(08:08:58)<tametick>the strength idea doesn't appeal to me. in fact it is diametrically opposed to the philosophy of cardinal quest 
(08:09:26)<jday>Is it?  I was thinking it would be constant.
(08:09:52)<jday>But I can see where it just adds complication.
(08:10:03)<tametick>the monster's weapons thing is already implemented due to weapons being in cqactor rather than cqplayer, so codingwise it would be very little work
(08:10:31)<tametick>it's a skill that has a non-direct effect on your character
(08:10:48)<tametick>it effects the way your weapon effects your character
(08:11:43)<tametick>(you can say the same about spirit but that was the simplest way i could think of for implementing a magic system)
(08:22:50)<tametick>i'm gonna head out now. but the more i think of ranged weapons in the form you suggest the less i like the idea. it's pulling us away from our roots
(08:23:06)<tametick>will need to think what a passable solution would be like
(08:23:11)<tametick>ttyl
(08:24:31)<tametick>also if you're feeling particularly clever you can make the variants all created by giving the base monster the appropriate magical item
(08:28:11)<Konijn>wow
(08:28:17)<Konijn>that was a wall of text to come back to
(08:28:28)<Konijn>I dont think I said officialy hi to Joist
(08:28:31)<Konijn>hi !
(08:28:32)<Konijn>:P
(08:28:42)<Konijn>I feel like I am missing something
(08:28:53)<Konijn>are all these ideas for Deluxe 
(08:28:59)<Konijn>or still for the Kong build ?
(08:29:42)<tametick>Deluxe
(08:29:47)<Konijn>ah
(08:29:49)<tametick>Classic is feature-ready
(08:29:51)<Konijn>okay, so not missing anything
(08:29:55)<tametick>only bug fixes
(08:30:17)<Konijn>I want to have the build use less memory
(08:30:17)<tametick>yeah it's all hand wavy stuff, nothing concrete 
(08:30:21)<Konijn>any areas I can look into
(08:30:25)<Konijn>?
(08:30:37)<Konijn>since the iPad build still crashes from time to time
(08:30:38)<Konijn>also
(08:30:50)<tametick>run with the profiler and see which types of bitmapdatas take memory
(08:31:04)<Konijn>aky
(08:31:05)<Konijn>kay
(08:31:08)<tametick>i suspect not caching the cut scene pngs would give us a couple MBs
(08:31:20)<Konijn>that would be good
(08:31:21)<tametick>since they are likely cached as BMPs in ram
(08:31:33)<tametick>640x480x4 bytes
(08:32:03)<tametick>~1.2mb
(08:32:49)<tametick>now i'm really off
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/16 +++
(05:17:14)<Joist>.
(05:17:29)<Joist>oh my chat didn't die
(05:17:32)<Joist>Konijn: hey back
(05:18:15)<jday>Joist: It's always great when you come back to a full chat log.
(05:18:53)<Joist>I saw the chat stopped at 6 and it's 15 now. I thought it'd probably died
(05:19:03)<Joist>for some reason irc servers hate me
(05:21:17)<jday>Yeah.  Ido's in Austria and I've been pretty sick today, so there's been no one around to talk to Konijn.
(05:22:10)<Joist>I got excited for a moment but Austria != Australia
(05:22:19)<Joist>which is where I am
(06:51:09)<tametick>back
(07:02:09)<tametick>Joist: funny, we were just talking about diablo yesterday: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3115882
(07:04:03)<Joist>heh
(07:04:32)<Joist>that's why I prefered MXL. It's easy to hit cap and the real challenge is min/maxing characters to get through the uberquests
(07:13:02)<tametick>http://twitter.com/tametick/status/125464429818163200
(09:42:38)<tametick>jday: i was thinking and came up with a solution to ranged weapons
(03:00:27)<Konijn>back!
(03:00:30)<Konijn>barely
(03:00:31)<Konijn>:P
(03:03:28)<Joist>o/
(03:03:49)<Konijn>let it be known that Venezuelan rum is good
(03:04:11)<Konijn>even now, I only have the tiniest of head aches
(03:04:17)<Joist>neat
(03:04:23)<Joist>I usually stick with whiskey
(03:06:05)<Joist>I won with the thief, go me
(03:11:09)<Konijn>:P
(03:11:11)<Konijn>easy
(03:11:22)<Konijn>win with a warrior and you'll get respect ;P
(03:14:54)<Joist>I'm trying ;_;
(03:15:05)<Joist>level 4 atm
(03:15:26)<Joist>double berserk + bless weapon is fun 
(03:15:59)<Joist>but the spells recharge sloooooooowly :) I have to run around after a battle
(03:28:37)<Joist>fuuuuuuuuuuck
(03:28:40)<Joist>died on level 8
(03:29:44)<Joist>has anybody won with the fighter?
(03:31:07)<tametick>no clue
(03:31:15)<tametick>people did but i don't know if they did with 1.1c
(03:31:30)<tametick>i didn't wipe the stats before the release 
(03:31:39)<Joist>ah
(03:31:42)<tametick>and 1.1c is harder that the previous releases
(03:31:50)<Joist>the no recharging is a bastard
(03:32:03)<Joist>sometimes I can't get my buffs back before a mob appears
(03:32:09)<tametick>up to 2 months or so before 1.0 the game was a lot tougher, then got easier 
(03:32:18)<tametick>yeah
(03:32:37)<tametick>but we can do jday's suggestion from yesterday in some form to give him battle induced buffs
(03:32:40)<tametick>or something
(03:32:55)<Joist>it's not a prob for thief or wizard though cause they have spirit out the arse
(03:32:58)<Joist>I'd like that
(03:33:08)<Joist>or, killing an enemy extends your current buffs timer?
(03:34:27)<Joist>tametick: does your magic mirror have the same stats as you?
(03:34:52)<tametick>i think so
(03:35:00)<tametick>maybe less damage but i'm not sure
(03:36:07)<Joist>interesting, I try him as a meat sheild
(03:42:58)<Joist>holy shit
(03:43:34)<Joist>I just had like -12 speed, I was able to put a magic mirror clone in the line of attack and retreat :P
(03:49:22)<Joist>elementals make me shit my pants
(03:53:00)<tametick>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X488gjE0c6BD8HTbZAwlmSZO3dIbVLlmdPdMX7n5VIY/edit?hl=en_US
(03:53:09)<tametick>^ list for 1.2
(03:56:17)<tametick>hi mcfroogle 
(03:56:26)<mcfroogle>Hi :-)
(03:56:27)<tametick>i put a link to the log in that doc
(03:56:51)<tametick>too lazy to enter all the ideas we discussed on here to the doc but will go through the log later and add them
(03:57:14)<mcfroogle>fair enough :-). just reading it now
(03:57:18)<tametick>mcfroogle: if you talk about ideas here cq_golem will log them and we can add them later
(03:57:39)<tametick>sup wl 
(03:57:49)<mcfroogle>ok sounds good
(03:57:55)<tametick>just posted a link to the todo list for 1.2: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X488gjE0c6BD8HTbZAwlmSZO3dIbVLlmdPdMX7n5VIY/edit?hl=en_US
(03:58:10)<tametick>also includes the log of these channel for the ideas we talked about already 
(03:59:54)<mcfroogle>yeah saw that. looking good. anything you need me to do other than discuss ideas?
(04:00:51)<tametick>i was just telling it to wl 
(04:00:55)<tametick>he joined after you
(04:01:58)<tametick>at the moment it seems most bugs are due to drag&drop, which will be redone by jday on monday
(04:02:15)<mcfroogle>oh yeah ok. oh should i add the shortcut name under bug?
(04:02:15)<tametick>i think otherwise there weren't really any major bugs
(04:02:28)<Joist>phew, fighter floor 8
(04:02:35)<tametick>yeah you can add it
(04:05:16)<mcfroogle>Got to floor 8 as fighter before but frooze :-s
(04:05:20)<mcfroogle>was 1.1b
(04:06:00)<tametick>yeah it had a couple of crashing bugs
(04:06:22)<wl>Btw: It seems that mobs that have a speed boost still take moves when sleeping, I'm guessing that's due to sleep only being a high -speed?
(04:06:33)<tametick>sleep stops
(04:06:39)<tametick>freeze is a minus to speed
(04:06:48)<tametick>if they do it's a bug
(04:06:59)<wl>Minotaurs and Werewolfs took one step 1-3 turns after being put to sleep
(04:07:02)<Joist>he means sleep is implemented as like -100 speed
(04:07:02)<tametick>iirc sleep set speed to 0
(04:07:05)<wl>ANd only if they had cast their speed buff
(04:07:11)<tametick>ah
(04:07:14)<tametick>yeah that could be
(04:07:40)<tametick>wait, maybe the sleep wore off? it is only for a few turns 
(04:07:45)<wl>Nono
(04:07:55)<wl>In the whole sleep duration they took just one step
(04:08:10)<tametick>becuase if they have 0 speed they should not be able to cast spells...
(04:08:13)<tametick>it's a bug most likely
(04:08:13)<wl>Maybe the +3 speed buff is added after the speed was set to 0
(04:08:18)<tametick>you can add it to the list 
(04:08:27)<tametick>yeah that's what i'm thinking
(04:08:38)<tametick>or that it just reduces the speed by creature.speed
(04:08:47)<tametick>without taking account any bufgs
(04:08:50)<tametick>*buffs
(04:09:35)<Joist>Konijn: won with warrior. One respect please
(04:09:40)<wl>And I wouldn't mind to have some nerfs to the Wizard, it feels really easy after getting some spells, maybe even have enemies that can block spells
(04:10:27)<wl>Or even evil stuff like spell reflection
(04:11:11)<Joist>an enemies spell which locks up your spell system for x turns?
(04:12:25)<Joist>thank you
(04:12:29)<tametick>that's a good idea wl 
(04:12:41)<Joist>and if you are interested, berserk, magic mirror, fear, polymorph, heal
(04:12:44)<Joist>spell set
(04:12:46)<tametick>let's add a 3d category then for things to consider
(04:13:22)<wl>On my last playthrough I got heal on the end of floor 7... was nearly out on heal potions
(04:13:39)<wl>And that's with a wizard, but just the damage from the elementals...
(04:16:35)<wl>The anti-wizard spell could be something as easy as -spirit
(04:20:15)<tametick>i've added some of the spell ideas in point 10 wl
(04:21:25)<tametick>spells are both for monsters and characters
(04:24:17)<wl>oh btw: Any particular screenshots wanted, I could make some on the next playthrough
(04:24:27)<mcfroogle>thats why i suggested a shop where you can buy spells you don't find due to unluckyness.
(04:24:36)<wl>And windowed or fullscreen?
(04:24:48)<tametick>wl: screens in different situations (classes/levels/floors)
(04:25:06)<tametick>wl: doesn't matter. windowed would probably be easier cause it will be unscaled 
(04:25:25)<tametick>mcfroogle: i'll add that to the things to consider list
(04:26:02)<tametick>also added jday's hidden passages idea
(04:28:13)<mcfroogle>yeah good idea i think, reveal map spell could be more useful then
(04:33:38)<Joist>I actually prefer not to use reveal map, even if I have extra spell room for it. It's hard to tell where you've been and I end up wandering into mobs :
(04:34:35)<tametick>what if reveal map showed you invisible enemies for a couple of turns?
(04:35:04)<mcfroogle>well doors show up brown so you know where you haven't been
(04:35:26)<Joist>mcfroogle: I'm not that clever
(04:35:32)<wl>I'm quite sure (in the neweest version) there is a difference between been there and just revealed from spell
(04:35:42)<wl>(on the map)
(04:36:02)<Joist>I don't use the map, except to check I've cleared out the place near the end of a level
(04:36:34)<tametick>ah one more question
(04:36:42)<mcfroogle>yeah that would be a good use. at the end of a floor use it to reveal sercret passages
(04:36:43)<tametick>what do you guys think of making the levels smaller?
(04:36:53)<tametick>while keeping the monster/item density?
(04:37:03)<mcfroogle>yes and no. make more variety, some big some small
(04:37:25)<mcfroogle>some long, rectangals and some square overall
(04:37:32)<tametick>hrm
(04:41:40)<mcfroogle>feedback?
(04:43:09)<tametick>about what?
(04:43:23)<tametick>oh the varying sizes? 
(04:43:28)<tametick>yeah could do that
(04:43:40)<tametick>but i gotta walk the dog first, will be back later
(04:45:36)<mcfroogle>ok
(04:47:21)<tametick>you can add it to the things to consider list
(04:47:56)<Joist>you're going to play with a yoyo?
(04:58:22)<mcfroogle>What are peoples veiws on bosses? purhaps every 5 floors or so?
(04:59:25)<wl>If they are very well balanced (a challenge for all classes)
(04:59:30)<wl>Which will be a tough job
(05:00:45)<mcfroogle>yeah good point
(05:01:11)<mcfroogle>very tough to do
(05:01:49)<mcfroogle>Purhaps a diffrent boss for each class
(05:29:34)<tametick>back
(05:29:45)<tametick>i was thinking of that, maybe in the further future
(05:29:50)<tametick>but not for now
(05:30:01)<tametick>we have plenty left to do before that
(05:30:05)<wl>Btw: Is there any way to play the current standalone version in window mode?
(05:30:12)<tametick>f2
(05:31:04)<wl>Ahh, I vaguely remember that being written somewhere in earlier version, but it seems there is no mentioning about that anywhere now
(05:31:19)<tametick>yeah i wrote that on the todo list
(05:31:22)<tametick>in the google doc
(05:31:39)<tametick>to have an option in the main menu for toggling windowed/full screen mode
(05:33:14)<mcfroogle>yeah, i remember asking on twitter about it when i first played it lol
(05:34:04)<wl>I think the old version had a menu where you could do it (and see the shortcut)
(05:34:28)<tametick>don't think so. the debug version starts in windowed mode tho
(05:34:34)<mcfroogle>yeah
(05:34:53)<wl>In the debug version it was ctrl+f I believe?
(05:35:34)<mcfroogle>So what are peoples ideas about the scoring system?
(05:35:55)<wl>What are the plans?
(05:35:58)<wl>Simple gold?
(05:36:02)<wl>Time?
(05:36:36)<mcfroogle>i don't know. gold will be able to spent in a future version. and time doesn't mean anything really
(05:36:44)<mcfroogle>can walk round in circles for ages really
(05:36:45)<tametick>level & floor reached, gold, time, bonus for killing boss
(05:36:50)<tametick>some amortized value
(05:36:51)<mcfroogle>perhaps EXP
(05:36:52)<wl>Well, moves = time
(05:37:19)<wl>Do you want only one value?
(05:37:21)<tametick>mcfroogle: in the latest version if you move in circles eventually a monser will spawn next to you that gives 0 xp
(05:37:24)<mcfroogle>but with moves you could walk round in circles and get loads of points after a while
(05:37:25)<wl>Or several independent ones?
(05:37:31)<wl>ehhh
(05:37:39)<wl>Least moves would be best ofc...
(05:37:48)<mcfroogle>oh didn't relise it gives you no XP
(05:37:59)<tametick>yeah fewer moves == higher score
(05:38:16)<tametick>because it means you play faster
(05:38:24)<wl>But you can easily run in circles on floor 1 or any floor (maybe not the last one) if you have heal spell
(05:38:37)<tametick>yeah but you aren't getting much from it
(05:38:47)<wl>Yeah
(05:38:53)<mcfroogle>how about something like exp x 100 / moves?
(05:39:00)<tametick>if the enemies are no challenge you don't need to recharge the spells as much 
(05:39:05)<wl>I hate aggregate scores
(05:39:16)<wl>I like having independent scores
(05:39:23)<tametick>we can try different formulae once we have stats about all values
(05:39:36)<tametick>just talking about the basic principles now
(05:39:38)<wl>have a move score for the people that like to run through fast, make a exp score for those that like to kill every last monster
(05:39:53)<tametick>yeah can sort via different stats too
(05:40:06)<tametick>or via the global amortized stat
(05:40:36)<wl>THe thing is no matter how you make the aggregate score, it will always favour one certain playstyle, that's mainly why I dislike them
(05:40:40)<wl>Just have them all independent
(05:41:29)<mcfroogle>yeah maybe have them all then tabs to sort via exp ect
(05:51:09)<mcfroogle>What are peoples views on having shops? or some sort of purchase system
(05:52:05)<wl>If it's limited
(05:52:24)<mcfroogle>well limited by how much cash you have and what floor your on?
(05:53:40)<wl>Not sure how it should be limited exactly, but the shop should be more like a last resort
(05:53:47)<mcfroogle>And you can only shop at a shop sort of place (not decided yet) but purhaps a shop every 3 floors
(05:53:57)<wl>The main way to get items/spells should be on the floor, not in the shop
(05:54:18)<mcfroogle>well number i've times i've not got the health spell until a floor 5 or something it's annoying
(05:54:20)<wl>It should really just be if you have not found any shoes yet, or are missing a crucial spell like heal
(05:55:07)<wl>I would dislike it if you could just buy a complete gear and spell collection
(05:55:09)<mcfroogle>yeah thats what i mean, maybe 3 items in each shop and a shop every 3 floors should then be spread out enough
(06:02:04)<tametick>wl: if it's really expensive it would be enough 
(06:02:35)<wl>Yeah, I don't what the exact limit it, but it should feel like a last resort solution only for serious problems
(06:02:36)<tametick>you can have a wide selection but remember that the amount of gold you amassed also depends on the dungeon floor
(06:02:41)<wl>*care
(06:03:03)<tametick>i am ok with it having a wide selection as long as you can't afford much
(06:03:16)<wl>Yeah
(06:03:24)<tametick>or you save your money to buy some super item late in the game
(06:06:19)<mcfroogle>yeah sounds good. things WILL be exspensive. encurages more exsploration fo levels too.
(06:18:24)<mcfroogle>oh anouther reason why a single score would be good then would be number of coins when you you die. and they could all be worth quite a lot of points
(06:23:46)<Konijn>for now, the Kong score is number of coins
(06:24:07)<Konijn>mostly, because steps taken is not tracked as far as I can tell
(06:25:49)<Joist>Konijn: beat the game with figher, one respect please
(06:25:57)<Konijn>I saw it
(06:25:58)<Konijn>+1 for Joist
(06:26:10)<Joist>yay recognition
(06:26:11)<Konijn>did you feel you abused stuff or you are just that awesome ?
(06:26:27)<Joist>well, I abused heal
(06:26:43)<Konijn>also, did you beat it in 1.1c ?
(06:26:51)<Konijn>because really, that would be +2 :P
(06:27:04)<Joist>yes, 1.1c
(06:27:26)<Joist>oh there's my spell list
(06:27:42)<Joist>yeah kind of abusing, but it's hard with fighter because spells take a week to recharge
(06:28:03)<Joist>berserk into battle, fear long ranged enemies to stall them till I can get closer
(06:28:11)<Konijn>really
(06:28:12)<Joist>magic mirror to hold the agro of a few mobs
(06:28:20)<Konijn>fear stops them from casting ?
(06:28:25)<Joist>polymorph tough mobs
(06:28:30)<Joist>Konijn: yes, they run away
(06:28:51)<Joist>but I get +3 speed from haste so I just fear and catch up to them
(06:28:56)<Konijn>jday or tametick still on ?
(06:29:03)<Joist>or fear -> polymorph see what's up
(06:29:06)<Konijn>the game still needs 100 megs on level 1 generate
(06:29:22)<Konijn>removing a few megabytes from intro screens is not gonna cut it I'm affraid ;\
(06:29:32)<Joist>100 megs of ram?
(06:29:35)<Konijn>yah
(06:29:35)<Joist>that's nothing for a game
(06:29:47)<Konijn>well, I would like to get it to run comfortably on an iPad
(06:29:52)<Konijn>100 megs is a lot in that case
(06:30:02)<Joist>oh, that makes a lot of sense
(06:30:06)<jday>100 megs is a lot for a game as simple as this one.
(06:30:08)<Konijn>it runs
(06:30:18)<Joist>are you using haxe -> cpp or adobe -> iOs
(06:30:22)<Konijn>but it also crashes at inopportune times
(06:30:38)<Konijn>haxe -> flash ( air ) -> adobe ( ios)
(06:30:50)<Joist>ah
(06:30:52)<Konijn>I wanted haxe -> NME
(06:30:54)<Konijn>but that is frelled
(06:31:00)<Konijn>that's a technical term :P
(06:31:11)<Joist>a technical farscape term
(06:31:30)<Joist>does NME run on iOS
(06:31:32)<Joist>?
(06:31:54)<Konijn>yes indeed
(06:32:10)<Joist>that's impressive
(06:32:20)<Konijn>if it would work, I'd agree
(06:32:21)<Konijn>http://haxe.1354130.n2.nabble.com/On-NME-and-fonts-tt6815845.html
(06:32:39)<Konijn>basically, right now, noone on the haxe team has Lion
(06:32:46)<Konijn>and NME does not build on Lion
(06:32:47)<Joist>fonts are a clusterfuck in every platform though
(06:33:22)<Konijn>eh
(06:33:22)<Joist>and if you want kerning you may as well kill yourself
(06:33:23)<Konijn>that I agree 
(06:33:29)<Konijn>and.. I have Lion
(06:33:39)<Joist>I too have lion
(06:34:32)<Joist>but I don't stress it too much, my dev computer is windows
(06:38:11)<mcfroogle>Windows is the way forward :-)
(06:39:36)<Joist>I hate windows with a passion
(06:39:42)<jday>Forward to the 20th Century!
(06:39:57)<Joist>but I also hate flash and as3. Platform is everything these days
(06:40:22)<Konijn>I was thinking
(06:40:27)<mcfroogle>but its good that you hate windows, and even hating flash. it gives people reasons to make things better
(06:40:27)<Konijn>what if I just kill the cache ?
(06:40:37)<Konijn>that would give me 30 megabytes
(06:41:01)<jday>Konijn: We cache very little of any use.
(06:41:12)<jday>The things we actually use, we keep references to.
(06:42:37)<Joist>mcfroogle: true, everything is a tradeoff these days, so there's always things to work for
(06:43:19)<mcfroogle>yeah, all helps, if xp didn't have any compotition it would still be bit shit
(06:43:46)<mcfroogle>and as people hated vista microsoft got their arse in gear and made the awesome 7
(06:43:54)<Joist>weird thing is, when I use windows I miss a bunch of features from os X
(06:44:03)<Joist>when I use os X there are no features I miss from windows
(06:44:31)<Konijn>I miss the maximize window button in OSX
(06:44:41)<jday>My complaint with Windows is that it's an exploratory dead-end -- yes, it's explorable, but you'll never find anything.  Even in Windows 95 they still packaged QBasic.  Lots of kids would find that.
(06:44:43)<Konijn>I miss flashdevelop
(06:44:56)<jday>The C-64 booted up into a BASIC repl.  Eveyrone learned a tiny bit.
(06:45:18)<Joist>Konijn: the green button is maximize
(06:45:40)<Konijn>it does not work like in Windows though
(06:45:45)<jday>On Linux, you have man and gcc and all kinds of useful things immediately, and a package manager, etc.  You have to be told how to explore it, but it's not hard.
(06:46:13)<Konijn>it only maximizes in one direction till it hits a border
(06:46:20)<mcfroogle>yeah i like the style of windows minizaes too
(06:46:20)<jday>(People often forget how many public funds go towards teaching children to use Microsoft software.)
(06:46:32)<Joist>Konijn: oh? I guess I've never noticed
(06:46:43)<Joist>the only window I maximise is my browser
(06:47:10)<Joist>jday: those things are nice for dev work but I rarely use them when just derping around with the computer
(06:50:06)<jday>My point, though, is that I've generally felt in that all the time I've poured into any particular version of Windows has ultimately been wasted.
(06:50:37)<jday>I've been keeping up with it since 3.1, and it's just -- perpetual dead ends.
(06:50:44)<Joist>jday: have you seen this? http://bellard.org/jslinux/
(06:50:53)<Joist>linux running through javascript
(06:51:07)<mcfroogle>:-o wow
(06:51:09)<Joist>there's even a c compiler and a hello world script set up for you to compile
(06:51:17)<Joist>go "tcc -run hello.c"
(06:51:19)<Joist>when it loads
(06:54:36)<Joist>oshit - there's source code - http://fpaste.org/eFPz/raw/
(06:56:08)<wl>Okay, getting pretty weird bugs right now, I had reveal map in slot 4, swapped it with charm spell, then I cast stone skin in slot 2, but it did cast reveal map...
(06:56:40)<Konijn>yeah
(06:56:44)<Konijn>had that bug before
(06:56:53)<wl>And I can't use slot 5 at all, it always tells me I have to use an empty slot to swap, but there is nothing in slot 5
(06:56:54)<Konijn>but I had stone skin first
(06:56:54)<Joist>me too, a lot
(06:57:00)<Konijn>swapped with heal
(06:57:02)<Konijn>and it casted stone skin instead
(06:57:13)<Joist>wl: there's a trick fix for that
(06:57:22)<Joist>wl: do you remember the spell you took from there?
(06:57:27)<wl>yes
(06:57:29)<Joist>if so reinsert it and then take it out again
(06:57:42)<wl>I can reinsert
(06:57:55)<wl>But I can't put another spell there
(06:58:07)<Joist>can you re-remove it?
(06:58:20)<wl>Yes, I could, now I can't :(
(06:58:23)<wl>Now it's hidden
(06:58:26)<wl>while in the slow
(06:58:28)<wl>*slot
(06:58:45)<wl>Can cast it though
(06:58:47)<Joist>yep, time to restart your game
(06:58:57)<wl>:(
(06:59:09)<wl>But I was playing fighter and had heal!
(06:59:14)<wl>And slepp and charm
(06:59:17)<jday>I'm working on it.
(06:59:28)<Joist>I issue a challenge. First person to beat the game without using Heal wins the challenge
(06:59:40)<mcfroogle>i've had both those bugs before :-s
(06:59:43)<wl>I think I could have done that with Wizard
(06:59:49)<jday>Joist: Sounds like a challenge worth building into the game.
(06:59:53)<mcfroogle>and that would pretty heard lol
(06:59:54)<wl>Only got heal on the end of floor 7
(06:59:55)<jday>mcfroogle: They actually happen every time.
(07:00:07)<jday>Literally, using the inventory manager means you will lose a spell.
(07:00:22)<mcfroogle>does anyone think the game should/would every be on steam?
(07:00:42)<jday>It would sure be nice.
(07:00:46)<Joist>it could, but you'd need to submit it to steam
(07:00:49)<wl>I think it is possible
(07:00:55)<mcfroogle>yeah
(07:00:58)<Joist>so, who here is actually on the dev team for CQ?
(07:01:05)<mcfroogle>i've seam flash games on steam before
(07:01:09)<Konijn>me
(07:01:11)<Joist>flash games are up on steam, vvvvv, machinarium et al
(07:01:11)<Konijn>jday
(07:01:13)<jday>tametick, Konijn, randomnine, and I.
(07:01:13)<Konijn>tametick
(07:01:18)<Konijn>randomnine
(07:01:20)<Joist>ah ok
(07:01:26)<Konijn>jday is much politer
(07:01:29)<Konijn>he ends with himself
(07:01:32)<Konijn>so
(07:01:51)<Konijn>who wrote 'I've beeing wanting one of these" ??
(07:01:54)<tametick>randomnine is officially starting to work on cq tomorrow 
(07:01:58)<mcfroogle>so untill then, how do people feel about in game achivements?
(07:02:10)<tametick>jday: did you read my proposed solution for ranged weapons?
(07:03:03)<Joist>and I read somewhere you are using a haxe port of flixel yes?
(07:03:23)<tametick>1.Spells could have special attributes 
(07:03:24)<tametick>1.a. ranged weapons would be implemented as spells with the special attribute that their cooldown depends on attack instead of spirit
(07:03:26)<tametick>Joist: yes
(07:03:33)<tametick>high modified by now
(07:03:36)<Joist>neat
(07:03:38)<tametick>but that's where it started 
(07:04:28)<tametick>jday: that would be a relatively minor change to the game's base mechanics *and* it could allow us a lot of other cool stuff in addition to ranged weapons
(07:05:34)<jday>tametick: Seems good.  It's a pity that the thief doesn't have a standout attribute.
(07:06:08)<jday>I did suggest having different spells charge by different stats, but we didn't have a concrete reason for it yet.
(07:06:14)<mcfroogle>purhapse a steal ability to steal from enemys maybe extra gold for items and spells
(07:07:25)<mcfroogle>makes a theif more theif too
(07:07:30)<mcfroogle>just spelt better lol
(07:07:43)<tametick>jday: speed is the thief's standout attribute
(07:08:06)<mcfroogle>never actully checked. how much better is it?
(07:08:32)<Joist>speed gets very "meh" at higher levels
(07:08:36)<jday>tametick: Right.  I sort of wrote it off since your turns are proportional to it, too -- but a spell that always seems to charge at a constant rate, no matter your speed, would favor him indeed.
(07:08:39)<tametick>jday: also, i imagine the thief being a cloak&dagger character that sneaks on monsters and stabs them in the back where as the ranger is the one that's adapt at ranged combat (and we can give him the bow as his starting spell)
(07:08:57)<jday>Joist: That's why I'd love for it to be exponential, but there's a lot of balancing to do.
(07:10:26)<mcfroogle>purhapse enemys don't "see" him untill he's a few blocks away
(07:10:44)<mcfroogle>should i put all theese ideas on the list?
(07:10:59)<Joist>btw, it's annoying that I can't 1:1 a minotaur in combat with any of the classes, even the fighter
(07:12:17)<tametick>what do you mean by 1:1?
(07:12:23)<jday>mcfroogle: Monsters have an 80% chance of noticing you each turn of theirs when you're in view; the faster you are, the more that benefits you.  I could dial that down to 70% with no ill effects.
(07:12:25)<Joist>one on one
(07:12:36)<tametick>they're the final monsters, they're supposed to be hard
(07:12:40)<jday>He means fight it fairly.
(07:12:44)<Joist>like, as a fighter I can't beserk up and take on a minotaur one on one without dying
(07:13:03)<jday>Yeah, it seems like the fighter should be able to do that, just narrowly.
(07:13:07)<Joist>I know, but if the fighter has to dance around like a pansy and cast spells what the point
(07:13:11)<Joist>yeah,
(07:13:25)<Joist>minotaur + anything > fighter > minotaur
(07:13:37)<mcfroogle>oh i know what he means, and maybe that could be reduced to 70% for the theft then? should i put on doc?
(07:14:30)<tametick>you can add it to the "things to consider" list
(07:14:58)<mcfroogle>yeah ok, no worries
(07:15:14)<jday>mcfroogle: That's really what shadow walk is for, though.  And shadow walk is better the higher your defence is -- and the thief has the highest defence.
(07:15:35)<jday>If we just tweak the way that shadow walk charges to favor the thief over the other classes, it'll be great.
(07:18:04)<tametick>jday: oh another idea that would work well for the ranged weapons
(07:18:18)<tametick>is to make some items more/less effective depending on the class
(07:18:44)<tametick>e.g bows would get some bonus for ranger and thief 
(07:18:55)<tametick>and another old idea is item synergies 
(07:19:04)<tametick>when used together some items get bonuses 
(07:20:16)<tametick>e.g. dragonscale boots are pretty good but if you are also wearing dragonscale armor they get another +1 spirit or whatever
(07:20:18)<tametick>and the same for items that work worse if you are wearing some other particular item
(07:21:56)<jday>Hard to convey succinctly, but there's no reason it wouldn't work.
(07:22:11)<tametick>we can just say "Works best with x"
(07:22:24)<jday>I like the idea of items that give boosts to spell effects.
(07:22:30)<tametick>and when x is worn just replace it with "+y to w"
(07:22:32)<jday>+2 speed while berserked.
(07:22:51)<tametick>yeah that fits too
(07:23:18)<tametick>it add complexity but not inherent new mechanics 
(07:23:31)<tametick>and you don't have to know about it until you actually get the item
(07:23:36)<tametick>at which point it is explained 
(07:23:55)<tametick>afk
(07:24:02)<tametick>you can add it to the google doc if you wish
(07:24:56)<tametick>i emailed you and invite
(07:32:06)<wl>no shoes found yet on floor 3, getting debuffed by spider 3 tiles away => instadeath because spider takes 5 moves without me taking any :(
(07:34:10)<wl>Ah, and it might be nice to have a small delay between enemy turns even if the player can not take a turn inbetween
(07:34:29)<wl>So you can at least see how the spider comes to you and kills you instead of just dying
(07:34:45)<Joist>ha yes
(07:37:17)<mcfroogle>maybe a "killed by: x" on the game over screen maybe even leaderboard?
(07:37:24)<wl>Sounds nice
(07:37:36)<wl>Btw, some screenshots: http://wl.attrib.org/cq/screenshots/
(07:38:59)<mcfroogle>i'll add to list
(07:40:48)<mcfroogle>i'll put the link next to the bit on the list
(07:42:15)<mcfroogle>done
(07:43:49)<Joist>up to floor 7 of my no heal run
(07:44:16)<wl>With?
(07:44:26)<mcfroogle>should use a recorder. think fraps is ment to be good
(07:44:29)<Joist>wizard of course :P
(07:44:34)<mcfroogle>more videos means more advertisement
(07:44:39)<wl>The attack spell of those elementals is really annoying
(07:44:42)<jday>wl: Yes, a delay would be good, but even better will be to fix that -- you'll never go below speed 1, once I get back to a state that can build.
(07:44:54)<jday>wl: All of them, or just the chaos ones?
(07:45:03)<Joist>wl: YES very frustrating
(07:45:04)<jday>And annoying annoying or annoying challenging and fun?
(07:45:06)<wl>But there should still be a delay
(07:45:29)<Joist>jday: challenging and fun but it feels broken
(07:45:40)<Joist>open door -> instantly get hit by 5 elemental spells
(07:45:46)<wl>Err, not annoying annoying
(07:45:52)<wl>I just meant in the context of using no heal
(07:45:52)<Konijn>okay
(07:45:56)<Konijn>now it is confirmed
(07:45:59)<wl>Since you can'T really block that damage
(07:46:01)<Konijn>or something
(07:46:07)<Konijn>monsters can go diagonal
(07:46:16)<mcfroogle>yeah that is very annoying when that happens
(07:46:17)<Konijn>I dont know if its because of wallsliding
(07:46:18)<wl>Whenever you see an elemental, 90% chance of losing hp
(07:46:33)<mcfroogle>exsactly a little hight really
(07:47:01)<jday>Joist: I need to tweak the way monsters charge spells before they first see you.
(07:47:19)<jday>It's just weird that there's no magic in the dungeon -- none at all -- for awhile, and then suddenly everyone you meet casts a spell right away.
(07:47:35)<mcfroogle>maybe so they can't hit you the instant the see you but the turn after
(07:47:36)<Joist>well there's the blue succubi
(07:47:36)<jday>Konijn: They can't go diagonal.
(07:47:43)<jday>They tween diagonally because they took two turns.
(07:47:44)<Joist>and then the spiders
(07:47:50)<Joist>and then all the elementals later
(07:47:54)<Joist>it does build up
(07:48:30)<Joist>jday: oh and bug, mob can sometimes shoot through like 10 walls
(07:48:43)<wl>There is no cast range
(07:48:47)<wl>At all
(07:48:57)<jday>Joist: So could you see them and then you stepped out of the way?
(07:49:14)<wl>He probably blinked away or died or for some reason went to another place really fast
(07:49:20)<Joist>no
(07:49:24)<jday>wl: There used to be a limit, and now that you mention it I know exactly what broke it.
(07:49:28)<Joist>they saw me, then I ran away
(07:49:36)<Joist>then randomly they shot me
(07:49:40)<Joist>it happens with charmed mobs too
(07:49:46)<wl>I think they keep casting once explored, I heard a kobold cast teleport over and over after I went to the other side of the map
(07:49:50)<Joist>more often, since there are more targets for charmed mobs
(07:49:50)<jday>Joist: Because it _should_ respect your current fov, and if it's not respecting that then there is something wrong.
(07:50:28)<jday>wl, Joist: It sounds like their awareness counters aren't dropping correctly.
(07:50:30)<Joist>jday: I can't really screenshot it to prove it since the spells move so fast. Is there a way to print a debug log of all of the game turns?
(07:51:24)<Konijn>jday : I have proof
(07:51:35)<Konijn>i was in front of 1 tile hallway
(07:51:45)<Konijn>kobold got past me
(07:52:03)<jday>Konijn: Was it a trickster?
(07:52:30)<jday>Because -- why would it even be trying to get past you if not?
(07:55:12)<Joist>jday: just happened again
(07:55:17)<Joist>I can screenshot this
(07:55:53)<Joist>well I fucked that up
(07:56:01)<jday>Joist: Can you describe the arrangement?  That's all I need to know to work it out.
(07:56:15)<Joist>jday: any chance the game can pull up the default window when it loses focus?
(07:56:18)<Joist>jday: ok
(07:56:35)<jday>Joist: The default window?
(07:56:55)<Joist>default menu
(07:56:56)<Joist>my bad
(07:59:18)<Joist>jday:  http://i.imgur.com/6kcxn.png
(07:59:35)<wl>wtf
(07:59:51)<wl>You know even in mspaint there is an add text option :P
(07:59:58)<Joist>nope
(08:00:02)<Joist>is there?
(08:00:06)<wl>oO
(08:00:08)<Konijn>jday
(08:00:22)<Konijn>can kobold be a trickster ?
(08:00:34)<wl>It is called Trickster and has a staff if it is one
(08:00:49)<Konijn>ah
(08:01:02)<jday>They teleport.
(08:01:07)<wl>And you can see the short *puff* animation if they teleport
(08:01:10)<wl>And also hear the sound
(08:01:19)<jday>Joist: Ok, I'll add an los test when they're not shooting you -- do _you_ ever get shot when you shouldn't?
(08:01:38)<Joist>jday: yes, and once I died from a shot like that
(08:02:01)<Joist>jday:  you can see the health bar of the mob he shot here - http://i.imgur.com/xgPI0.png
(08:02:21)<Joist>and he just shot him again
(08:02:46)<jday>That's ok.  That's an easy bug.  The problem where they shoot you is different.
(08:02:55)<Joist>yay he killed him through a door :)
(08:03:14)<jday>I bet he'll just go on killing everything on the level if you keep charming him.
(08:03:41)<Joist>his usefulness ran out so I killed him, it's too late now
(08:03:46)<wl>Nooooo
(08:04:45)<Joist>nature elemental doing it too, and not through a door, though like 5 walls
(08:08:35)<Joist>WOW
(08:08:41)<Joist>teleport just saved my bacon
(08:08:53)<Joist>got trapped between my charmed minotaur and a werewolf
(08:09:04)<Joist>I knew I kept it hotbarred for a reason
(08:10:02)<wl>Just remembered that those Elementals were really annoying on my last thief playthrough where I had found no +hp items, I had to heal after every shot or risk dying and died anyway when I opened a door with 2 of them.
(08:16:31)<Joist>well..... shit 
(08:16:32)<Joist>http://i.imgur.com/yLusU.jpg
(08:17:31)<wl>Which one did you charm?
(08:17:59)<wl>And whoa, 121 gold :o
(08:18:02)<Joist>the werewolf
(08:18:06)<Joist>>.>
(08:18:13)<wl>Never had 3 digits
(08:18:17)<Joist>before I knew what I was up against
(08:18:26)<Joist>I keep getting ruby thingies
(08:18:50)<wl>You are rich!
(08:18:58)<wl>Stop hunting monsters and enjoy the rest of your life on some beach!
(08:19:05)<Joist>I WON
(08:19:11)<Joist>no heal run, boo yah
(08:19:19)<wl>:)
(08:19:25)<wl>Now do it with fighter!
(08:19:27)<wl>:P
(08:19:40)<Joist>pretty happy with the spellset, could probably sub out enfeeble for something else, poly or fear maybe?
(08:19:43)<Joist>HA no
(08:19:52)<Joist>fighter is really hard
(08:19:58)<wl>I would use sleep or fear instead of enfeeble
(08:20:10)<wl>Helps against single monsters
(08:20:47)<Joist>against single monsters I have options: chain charm, chain stall with magic mirror or chain them allong via running, if they catch up I can tele past them
(08:20:53)<Joist>single monsters are the easiest :)
(08:21:08)<wl>Well, not if you just went down a floor and have no place :P
(08:21:29)<Joist>chain charm combined with magic mirror stall works well
(08:21:33)<wl>And sleep is still better than enfeeble in any situation
(08:21:36)<Joist>I can stall a minotaur forever doing that
(08:21:44)<Joist>wl: good point
(08:21:48)<Joist>very good pint
(08:21:53)<Joist>point*
(08:23:13)<wl>That reminds me that some charms just feel redundant
(08:23:23)<wl>Haste feels pretty weak compared to Berserk
(08:23:43)<wl>I rarely use Enfeeble, there is Sleep or other stuff
(08:23:58)<Joist>you don't find them in the same order each game though
(08:24:01)<wl>Yes
(08:24:11)<wl>But having charms that are always worse than another charm is bad
(08:24:17)<wl>They should have at least a small niche
(08:24:31)<Joist>berserk > enchant sword + haste
(08:24:41)<wl>Yeah, that was another "useless" charm
(08:24:53)<wl>I can hardly remember their names because I never use them :P
(08:25:19)<Joist>I rarely use the buffs, they aren't as useful as tactical spells
(08:25:32)<wl>It would be enough if haste gave just one more speed than berserk, not perfect, but then at least it would be better in certain situations
(08:25:34)<Joist>charm > fear > sleep > freeze
(08:25:35)<wl>Yeah
(08:25:44)<wl>Fear is not always better than sleep
(08:25:58)<Joist>yes, always. It puts distance between them and you
(08:26:02)<wl>If I want to melee a mob down, sleep is better
(08:26:08)<Joist>in my experience always at least
(08:26:23)<wl>Well, for a fighter sleep feels better in most cases
(08:26:24)<Joist>I just fear them and run up to them
(08:26:32)<wl>Yeah, but you get less hits in them
(08:26:47)<Joist>are you sure they are the same duration?
(08:26:55)<wl>No idea
(08:27:09)<wl>But with sleep I can get one in every turn, with fear they are running away at least half of the time
(08:27:46)<wl>And charm can also be worse than fear/sleep if I want to melee a mob
(08:28:03)<Joist>that's true, but it's generally better
(08:28:07)<wl>For wizard that equation is probably true
(08:28:23)<Joist>yeah I guess I'm in the wizard mentality
(08:28:28)<wl>:)
(08:30:59)<Joist>btw, how good is double shadow walk
(08:31:12)<wl>Never had it
(08:31:37)<Joist>bad luck, it's awesome
(08:35:43)<Konijn>and another ios build is running
(08:35:57)<Konijn>I added 'say' statements so that I get voice feedback when the compile is done
(08:36:07)<Konijn>or when I need to give the password for the dev key
(08:36:47)<jday>I've been away, but I've got to say this is a great conversation to see.
(08:36:58)<jday>The more you can talk about these dynamics, the more I can play up the parts that are fun.
(08:38:03)<Joist>Well, the biggest niggle for me atm is the health system seems borked
(08:38:08)<Konijn>jday, do you listen to roguelike radio ?
(08:38:18)<Joist>pretty much revolves around the Heal spell
(08:38:23)<Konijn>joist : fighter should auto heal
(08:38:25)<jday>Konijn: I do.
(08:38:32)<Konijn>cool
(08:38:40)<Joist>Konijn: and the thief?
(08:38:45)<wl>Lifeleech for fighter but be nice
(08:38:50)<wl>*might
(08:39:40)<wl>Thief could maybe heal on backstab only
(08:43:45)<jday>Seems like lifeleech/vampirism/transference would be better suited to the thief than the fighter.
(08:44:15)<Joist>lifeleech on death?
(08:44:17)<mcfroogle>I'm back, sorry forgot to say i left, i might have been timed in
(08:44:21)<mcfroogle>timed out i mean
(08:44:31)<Joist>maybe if  you kill a second enemy within 10 turns of killing the first you get some health?
(08:45:05)<wl>Well, the thing is that fighter needs the health more
(08:45:22)<wl>But maybe then just a simple autoheal for the fighter, 1 hp every 100 tiles or so
(08:45:36)<Konijn>Joist : thief, nah
(08:45:59)<Konijn>thief does not seem to need any help
(08:46:02)<Joist>Konijn: fighter
(08:46:27)<Konijn>figher, yeah, if it really is mean to be the easy class, it should auto heal
(08:47:20)<Joist>Konijn: btw, did a wizard run with 0 heals
(08:47:34)<Joist>heal spells that is, I think I used a pot
(08:48:55)<mcfroogle>nice work :-)
(08:49:45)<Konijn>waiting for build
(08:49:49)<Konijn>impatiently
(08:50:46)<Joist>mcfroogle: thanks
(08:50:57)<Joist>I really should log my builds somewhere so I can remember them <,<
(08:52:31)<mcfroogle>so how many levels are there?
(08:52:36)<mcfroogle>floors i mean
(08:53:57)<Joist>9 I think
(08:54:13)<Joist>yeah 9
(08:54:29)<mcfroogle>ok :-) any idea if more will be added?
(08:54:57)<Konijn>tametick , are you still on, how do mouse.x and mouse.y get set ?
(08:55:07)<Konijn>I am grepping like mad, but I dont see any assignment
(08:55:32)<Konijn>on iPad mouse.x and mouse.y are not initialized and have crazy values
(08:55:46)<Konijn>so I am trying to find where they get set and I just cant find it ;\
(08:56:00)<Joist>mcfroogle: not sure
(08:58:58)<Konijn>there should be 8 floors
(08:59:07)<mcfroogle>I'll put it on the doc. 
(08:59:09)<mcfroogle>dones
(08:59:10)<Konijn>if you find the 9th , let me know ;)
(08:59:28)<Konijn>we should code save/load before adding floors :)
(08:59:34)<wl>Yeah, you can reach level 9, but not floor
(08:59:38)<Konijn>ah
(08:59:38)<wl>9
(08:59:40)<Konijn>player level
(08:59:48)<jday>Konijn: You want HxlMouse, I think.
(08:59:53)<mcfroogle>oh yeah sorry i was talking about floor
(08:59:55)<Joist>8 that's it
(08:59:56)<Joist>http://i.imgur.com/yLusU.jpg
(09:00:00)<Joist>floor 8 level 9
(09:00:01)<Konijn>  public function update(X:Int,Y:Int,XScroll:Float,YScroll:Float) { 
(09:00:04)<Konijn>is in hxlmouse
(09:00:23)<Konijn>which is called in only 1 place
(09:00:30)<jday>(And yeah, never any more floors.  Pretty sure that's not happening.  More in them, is all.)
(09:00:30)<Konijn>mouse.update(Math.floor(state.mouseX),Math.floor(state.mouseY),scroll.x,scroll.y);
(09:00:45)<Konijn>and state.mouseX is never set
(09:00:48)<Konijn>as far as I can tell
(09:01:00)<Joist>Are you guys using any of the flash.Memory utils? that looks neat
(09:02:49)<jday>Konijn: I think it comes from Flash -- HxlState extends Sprite.
(09:03:29)<jday>So maybe on touch devices that won't ever happen, and if you fix HxlMouse or HxlState to use touch events to move the 'mouse', that might work.
(09:03:30)<Joist>if it's near flixel
(09:03:38)<Joist>it's probably from HxlGame
(09:03:54)<Konijn>huh
(09:03:55)<Joist>HxlGame extends movieclip, and it's the only thing added to the screen as a child
(09:03:57)<Konijn>will check it
(09:05:05)<Konijn>oh my god
(09:05:08)<Konijn>you are so right
(09:05:24)<Joist>who?
(09:05:31)<Konijn>Joist
(09:05:33)<wl>I was right, ofc!
(09:05:37)<Konijn>and jday
(09:05:41)<Konijn>are you twins or something ?
(09:05:42)<Konijn>:P
(09:05:52)<Joist>cool, I've been playing with flixel on and off since it was released
(09:19:19)<Konijn>and ......
(09:19:21)<Konijn>waiting again
(09:20:36)<Konijn>compilin compilin compilin
(09:20:46)<Konijn>frelling Adobe
(09:20:56)<Konijn>why would they have their compiler written in Java ?????
(09:21:06)<Konijn>sloooooow
(09:21:16)<Joist>java isn't slow bro
(09:21:23)<Konijn>not for server side
(09:21:30)<Konijn>but 1 process on its own
(09:21:33)<Konijn>slooooooooow
(09:21:43)<Konijn>or
(09:21:47)<Konijn>its just badly written Java
(09:21:56)<Joist>nah, the JIT and hotspot are miles ahead of flash
(09:22:02)<Joist>that is a possibility
(09:25:52)<jday>Java is fast once it starts; for a compiler, that's not a big cost.  For client code and applets it was terrible.
(09:26:22)<Konijn>all I can say is that Java app compilation takes about 5 minutes
(09:26:31)<Konijn>c app compilation takes about 20 secs
(09:26:38)<Konijn>( adt vs xcode )
(09:28:17)<Joist>Konijn: do you mean as3 compilation via java?
(09:28:28)<Joist>cause java compilation is fast since it's just making bytecode
(09:30:25)<Joist>grr, grooveshark keeps pulling the new justice songs
(09:31:31)<Konijn>no
(09:31:52)<Konijn>its compiling arm code from swf 
(09:32:02)<Joist>ah
(09:32:05)<Konijn>as I understand it
(09:32:12)<Joist>eabi or thumb?
(09:32:19)<Konijn>no idea
(09:32:24)<Joist>oh
(09:32:54)<Konijn>google says eabi
(09:33:10)<Joist>ah, cool
(09:33:20)<Joist>I've only played with thumb
(09:39:53)<Konijn>http://blog.yoz.sk/2010/10/quick-tip-stage-mousex-on-androi/
(09:39:55)<Konijn>beautiful
(09:40:06)<Konijn>no I have to code against the bugs in air
(09:41:15)<Joist>nice
(09:43:29)<Joist>Konijn: don't feel bad, here's a dog playing the piano http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GcQai--9AHQ#!
(09:43:52)<Konijn>this better not be rick roll :P
(09:44:23)<Joist>I would never
(10:02:58)<mcfroogle>oh yeah, how would people feel about in game acheivements? can be viewed at a later date pretting a cup symbol on the main menu
(10:03:57)<wl>Depends on the achievements
(10:04:26)<mcfroogle>any ideas?
(10:04:31)<wl>Achiecements for certain challenges are okay, normal progression achievements are boring
(10:05:15)<mcfroogle>yeah, don't think it would be anything like that. only one remotely like that would be for reaching the final floor
(10:05:42)<wl>Never change spells, never use the heal spell, do not drink any potions, ... (all in a winning run)
(10:07:42)<wl>Maybe something like kill 5 monster while having 1 hp
(10:09:53)<tametick>Konijn: it's coming from flash i think
(10:09:59)<tametick>why?
(10:10:21)<jday>mcfroogle: In game achievements absolutely need to go in.
(10:10:31)<jday>In fact, there are a few tracked now, but they're not very impressive.
(10:10:37)<jday>And we don't do much of anything with them.
(10:10:42)<mcfroogle>I'll stick it on the things to consider list
(10:10:43)<tametick>Konijn: maybe becuase there is no mouse on the pda?
(10:11:12)<jday>Comparative achievements, too -- fewest turns to a win, say.  Fewest kills would be a great one.
(10:11:13)<tametick>*ipad
(10:11:18)<tametick>it makes sense 
(10:11:25)<jday>(Or lowest level character upon winning.)
(10:12:10)<wl>comparative achievements are called leaderboards :P
(10:12:19)<jday>The one progression achievement should be depth achieved.
(10:12:34)<jday>wl: Well, if you're just comparing with yourself -- which is all I had in mind until you mentioned it.
(10:13:45)<mcfroogle>yeah comparing with your self would be good. similar to when you die on team fortress 2
(10:14:00)<mcfroogle>"longest time you have stayed alive" ect
(10:14:15)<mcfroogle>obviously that wouldn't be one in cq
(10:14:20)<wl>^^
(10:15:33)<mcfroogle>what?
(10:18:42)<mcfroogle>added them to the list
(10:22:27)<Konijn>tametick : its kind of funny
(10:22:38)<tametick>Konijn: i saw your link
(10:22:52)<Konijn>if you touch the screen, you get a mousemove, a mousedown, a mouse up and again a mouse move
(10:23:02)<Konijn>only the first mousemove is corrupted
(10:23:04)<tametick>but regardless it's not set by our code anywhere, it's coming from flash 
(10:23:10)<Konijn>yep
(10:24:56)<tametick>so no way to set the topic eh
(10:25:00)<tametick>that's kinda unfortunate 
(10:25:44)<Konijn>indeed
(10:26:03)<wl>quite easy way, let everyone leave and rejoin
(10:26:06)<Konijn>I am willing to leave five mins
(10:26:14)<Konijn>okay lets do it
(10:26:17)<Konijn>BYE CRUEL WORLD !
(10:26:21)<wl>I doubt everyone is even here
(10:26:28)<tametick>i don't think everyone is online
(10:26:30)<tametick>right
(10:26:51)<tametick>doesn't matter
(10:26:54)<tametick>another time
(10:27:42)<jday>Konijn will come back and be sorely disappointed.
(10:28:11)<wl><-amazing
(10:28:20)<tametick>:o
(10:28:54)<tametick>how did you do it wl?
(10:29:06)<wl>/msg r requestop #cq-dev
(10:29:23)<tametick>^ just a bot
(10:29:30)<tametick>ah cool
(10:29:35)<wl>Same rights for bots :P
(10:29:36)<mcfroogle>how does the golem work?
(10:29:38)<tametick>so if nobody is op it gives you one?
(10:29:47)<tametick>cq_golem?
(10:29:50)<wl>no op and not a registered channel, yes
(10:29:53)<mcfroogle>oh does it just stick the log in the  file
(10:29:54)<tametick>it's just logging what we say
(10:29:59)<mcfroogle>yeah
(10:29:59)<tametick>yes
(10:32:11)<mcfroogle>so anymore ideas to add to the file?
(10:32:27)<tametick>i think there is more than enough already :)
(10:32:47)<tametick>who is Stephen?
(10:32:51)<mcfroogle>Me :-)
(10:32:56)<tametick>ah
(10:33:03)<tametick>who do you think is the easiest class?
(10:33:36)<mcfroogle>well it should be warior i think
(10:33:55)<mcfroogle>then wizard then theft
(10:34:06)<jday>But it isn't like that, now, is it?
(10:34:07)<mcfroogle>but they don't have enough perks i think :-s
(10:34:16)<mcfroogle>no don't think
(10:34:18)<mcfroogle>so
(10:34:39)<mcfroogle>you could move them around on the charecter selection screen in that order?
(10:34:54)<mcfroogle>like to the right order?
(10:35:08)<tametick>or just buff them a bit to fit in ;)
(10:35:20)<mcfroogle>yeah :-)
(10:35:25)<tametick>the text in the char creation screen is the way it really was at the time i wrote it
(10:35:35)<tametick>which was a couple of months ago
(10:35:37)<mcfroogle>oh yeah
(10:35:40)<tametick>anyway i'm off to bed
(10:35:47)<mcfroogle>ok. night
(10:39:46)<mcfroogle>think i'm going to go now soon. almost midnight here
(11:36:19)<konijn>o/
(11:36:32)<konijn>who was first back ?
(11:41:06)<jday>konijn: wl found a workaround.
(11:41:11)<jday>We aren't all here, so we can't all leave.
(11:41:45)<konijn>ah
(11:41:48)<konijn>what is the workaround
(11:41:52)<konijn>ask an admin ?
(11:56:25)<jday> /msg r requestop #cq-dev
(11:59:17)<konijn>rly
(11:59:21)<konijn>every day I learn
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/17 +++
(01:47:05)<konijn>I am pleased with my iOS work
(01:47:25)<konijn>the game allows the player to play at the wanted speed
(01:47:54)<konijn>and if the player clicks like mad, then some steps are skipped ( player 'jumps' ), but my kids have confirmed that it plays much better now :P
(01:48:05)<konijn>It's nice to have 3 play testers at home :P
(02:30:46)<konijn>back
(02:30:55)<konijn>I guess everybody is already sleeping :P
(02:58:50)<jday>konijn: Have your kids had any other gameplay suggestions?
(02:59:09)<konijn>yeah
(02:59:17)<konijn>they didnt like going down stairs on ipad
(02:59:28)<konijn>other than, the animations are too choppy
(02:59:37)<konijn>they are 10,8 and 5
(02:59:45)<konijn>so no game designing tips yet :P
(02:59:47)<jday>I wonder whether we should add a contextual movement button that would show an icon based on what they can do where they are.
(02:59:57)<jday>Maybe down in the lower-right corner of the screen.
(03:00:12)<konijn>that might not be bad at all
(03:00:29)<jday>And as we move into Plus, new contextual behaviors could get added (press, pull, search, etc.)
(03:04:01)<jday>I'm also wondering if we shouldn't move the player off-center -- up a few cells, so he's in the middle of the visible area.
(03:17:03)<konijn>not sure
(03:17:10)<konijn>going to bed myself now ;P
(03:17:17)<konijn>I'll sleep over it 
(06:09:51)<Joist>I think magic mirror is the second most useful spell, after heal
(06:11:01)<Joist>@?
(06:29:29)<Joist>interesting, teleport doesn't break shadow walk
(06:41:29)<Joist>tametick: o/
(06:41:35)<Joist>doing a no heal fighter run
(06:42:11)<tametick>hey
(06:42:16)<tametick>nice
(06:42:21)<tametick>op me
(06:42:39)<tametick>we got some good UI feedback: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3118630
(06:42:40)<Joist>how?
(06:42:45)<tametick> /op tametick 
(06:42:53)<tametick>without the space at the beginning 
(06:43:09)<tametick>thanks :)_
(06:43:51)<Joist>nps
(06:44:22)<tametick>jday, konijn ^
(06:44:29)<Joist>few, floor 8
(06:44:35)<Joist>don't die now ._.
(06:50:50)<Joist>fuck yeah
(06:51:25)<Joist>no heal fighter: shadow walk, shadow walk, magic mirror, teleport, polymorph
(06:51:38)<tametick>:)
(06:51:53)<Joist>everything here is logged right? are the logs public?
(06:52:08)<tametick>cardinalquest.com/cqbot/log.rxr
(06:52:11)<tametick>cardinalquest.com/cqbot/log.txt
(06:52:22)<tametick>but don't worry it's not linked from anywhere
(06:52:37)<Joist>cool, then I'll just post builds I like here so's I can look them up later
(06:52:46)<Joist>heh, not worried about that
(06:52:57)<tametick>k
(06:53:20)<tametick>you can also start a new google doc and post the link
(06:53:35)<tametick>might be easier to manage/find later
(06:54:37)<Joist>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sHjyMsUi2vl5z1465PBr_WQNdm5z25SNU4f6PbZyj5o/edit?hl=en_US ?
(06:57:30)<Joist>fuck I meant no heal thief
(07:00:12)<tametick>you need to set permissions to be viewable or editable by everyone
(07:00:39)<Joist>tametick: how :)
(07:00:54)<tametick>click share button
(07:01:28)<tametick>below the "link to share" line there is some permission setting link
(07:01:46)<Joist>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sHjyMsUi2vl5z1465PBr_WQNdm5z25SNU4f6PbZyj5o/edit?hl=en_US
(07:01:50)<Joist>?
(07:02:05)<tametick>yep :)
(07:02:10)<Joist>cool
(07:05:27)<Joist>I just realized literally every one of my builds uses magic mirror
(07:05:29)<Joist>that spell is pimp
(07:07:58)<jday>Joist: So as with healing, are their perhaps two spells you'd like to split it into?
(07:08:14)<jday>(If we have spells that are great -- both fun and useful -- they seem worth playing off of.)
(07:08:22)<Joist>I'm not sure if it's OP or not
(07:08:38)<tametick>raise corpse & vampiric touch 
(07:08:42)<Joist>I mainly use it to lock down mob targets to one place while they focus on the meat sheild
(07:08:47)<jday>tametick: Man, I'm looking forward to being done with ui stuff.  All these other changes I could be making, and I don't just want to shelve it.
(07:08:54)<jday>tametick: Oh, right.  Very good point.
(07:09:04)<Joist>or to throw in  my line of sight of spellcasters/range
(07:09:05)<Joist>d
(07:09:23)<tametick>jday: i think once you are done with that we'll release 1.1d that corrects all the bugs we still have (that people found)
(07:09:24)<Joist>it can't kill anything itself past level 2-3
(07:09:36)<tametick>jday: and then 1.2 could be a pure new features release 
(07:09:47)<jday>tametick: I'll do a writeup for 1.1d, then.
(07:10:08)<tametick>jday: the bugs section in the doc above is close to being it isn't it?
(07:11:17)<jday>We're really pretty low on bugs at this point.  It's pretty great.
(07:11:30)<jday>By a writeup, I mean for the blog, talking up everything that's changed since b.
(07:11:31)<tametick>yep
(07:11:38)<tametick>only 5
(07:11:53)<tametick>jday: did you read the hacker news link above?
(07:12:02)<tametick>i think he raises some fair points
(07:12:10)<tametick>(also not for 1.1d)
(07:12:16)<tametick>(maybe even not 1.2)
(07:13:19)<tametick>only 4 even
(07:44:05)<tametick>jday: yeah you could generally introduce yourself as cq's new main developer or however you want to christen yourself
(07:44:32)<tametick>talk about all the stuff that's changed since b, what's planned for d, maybe even a bit about 1.2 
(07:44:48)<tametick>you could use some of the new sprites to show off a "sneak peak" 
(07:46:32)<jday>It'll be a lot of fun to write.  It'll have to wait for tomorrow, so probably during a break between bugfights.
(07:46:47)<tametick>no hurry 
(07:47:16)<tametick>can also use that opportunity to explain the cq classic/cq deluxe divide 
(07:47:25)<tametick>or maybe i can write about that just before
(07:51:50)<jday>I'd be happy to roll both together.  Your call.
(07:54:27)<tametick>you can go ahead and cover it all if you wish
(08:23:27)<Joist>tametick: hey, can I ask you something
(08:23:39)<Joist>when you cast a spell and it lasts for X turns
(08:23:48)<Joist>is that X of your turns or X whole game turns
(08:23:57)<Joist>like will +speed extend spell length to you
(08:23:59)<Joist>jday: ^
(08:28:25)<jday>Whole game turns.
(08:28:48)<jday>No spell's duration presently cares how fast you are.  (Could be a nice dynamic in some cases.)
(08:28:49)<Joist>how about spell recharge?
(08:28:55)<jday>Same story.
(08:29:02)<Joist>huh
(08:29:07)<jday>The exploration clock, too.  None of them care how fast you are.
(08:29:21)<jday>So the thief's spells will seem to charge slower than they do.
(08:29:25)<Joist>so the faster you get the more of your turns it takes to recharge?
(08:29:30)<Joist>I don't think that's right
(08:30:08)<jday>But it is.  You need spirit if you want to recharge faster -- more turns will let you stay away, already.  That's a big gain.
(08:30:23)<Joist>oh that's right
(08:30:26)<Joist>derp
(08:30:36)<jday>Wizards are supposed to want to focus on spirit; the fact that they'd rather have speed is a bit of a flaw.  But then, speed is always king in roguelikes.
(08:30:59)<jday>No matter what anyone says, unless they've gone out of their way to keep it from working, always go for speed.
(08:31:31)<Joist>oh? even speed vs defense?
(08:31:34)<Joist>or speed vs life?
(08:36:19)<wl>Well, you need a bit of life
(08:36:39)<wl>But why defense? Just run/teleport away and kill them off with spells
(08:36:51)<Joist>playing a no heal fighter
(08:37:10)<wl>I thought we were discussing stats for wizard
(08:37:39)<Joist>oh, I thought it was in general
(08:38:10)<wl>And speed can still be superior if you have the patience to run around a lot and only hit them in the turns where they won't hit back
(08:38:48)<Joist>oh really? that's interesting
(08:42:11)<randomnine>heyo!
(08:44:08)<Joist>christ almighty
(08:44:11)<Joist>floor 7
(08:44:15)<Joist>3 pots left :(
(08:45:49)<randomnine>is the stuff in the cq 1.2 google doc the current bug list?
(08:47:27)<Joist>I'm so boned http://i.imgur.com/TCxvD.jpg
(08:59:38)<Joist>I'm a god, no heal fighter complete
(09:00:29)<wl>Currently on floor 4, no heal pot or heal spell used yet
(09:01:54)<tametick>back
(09:02:16)<wl>instadeath from -speed debuff... damn
(09:02:17)<tametick>Joist: it's game ticks, doesn't matter if you are slow or fast
(09:02:24)<tametick>hey randomnine 
(09:02:29)<tametick>yes it is
(09:02:45)<Joist>wl: erg, always buff before going through doors
(09:02:57)<wl>Waited for berserk before every door?
(09:03:02)<wl>*waiting
(09:03:06)<tametick>randomnine: not much too it, i'll do 4 quickly now & jday is working on overhauling the UI sysyem
(09:03:10)<tametick>*to it
(09:03:13)<wl>I also had haste, but could not swap spells :(
(09:03:26)<wl>And only waiting on berserk is quite slow
(09:03:46)<Joist>true, early on you can't beat the "hurry up" timer
(09:03:56)<wl>But before that the not taking damage at all worked quite well
(09:04:07)<randomnine>tametick: cool, i've fixed 3
(09:04:30)<tametick>randomnine: great! did you test it with losing focus?
(09:04:42)<randomnine>not yet, will do ^_^
(09:04:45)<tametick>it should still pause and resume music appropriately 
(09:04:47)<randomnine>shouldn't have changed the logic there
(09:04:59)<randomnine>only stuff i've changed is on game start/when you go to the main menu
(09:05:18)<randomnine>i'll run through the game a few times... it's a *lot* smoother now than it was two weeks ago
(09:05:28)<tametick>yeah but if you disabled music in the menu, then the game lost focus, when it gains focus again it might play music again
(09:05:34)<tametick>just a thought, might be working fine
(09:05:44)<randomnine>hehe. it works fine
(09:05:49)<tametick>cool :)
(09:06:09)<tametick>you know the basic hg workflow right? with commit vs push?
(09:06:28)<randomnine>i know i have to commit to local then synchronise with bitbucket
(09:06:37)<randomnine>i'm looking for the 'commit' option in tortoisehg now. lol
(09:07:03)<randomnine>ah, it was outside the submenu
(09:07:15)<tametick>i just use the "workbench"
(09:07:35)<tametick>have it open all the time and do everything from it instead of from explorer
(09:10:44)<randomnine>cool
(09:11:12)<randomnine>that's pushed. should i clear the item from the todo list or do you want to verify the changes first?
(09:11:25)<tametick>it's ok just put it in the done section
(09:11:45)<tametick>maybe next to get acquainted with the system
(09:12:13)<tametick>a good assignment would be to move some data from CqMobFactory (and other factories e.g. for items) into text files?
(09:12:24)<tametick>so that was meant as a question
(09:13:13)<randomnine>so people can mod stuff?
(09:13:35)<tametick>mostly so that we can tweak/balance easier 
(09:13:50)<randomnine>cool
(09:14:14)<randomnine>how will that work with the Flash version?
(09:14:27)<tametick>you can embed text file in the swf
(09:14:34)<tametick>same as with mp3 or pngs
(09:14:42)<randomnine>oh, cool :D
(09:14:48)<tametick>look at the generate resources bat file
(09:15:17)<tametick>and rsrc/cq/resources.xml
(09:15:27)<tametick>we're using swfmill
(09:15:39)<tametick>you can see for yourself in the xml file, it's pretty easy
(09:15:52)<tametick>you can use either xml or whatever you want for the format
(09:15:55)<tametick>whatever is easier 
(09:15:58)<randomnine>okay, no problem
(09:16:04)<tametick>i find xml a bit tedious to edit by hand
(09:16:08)<randomnine>yeah
(09:16:18)<tametick>maybe ini or json formats
(09:16:28)<tametick>or just some simple plain text 
(09:17:30)<randomnine>when you launch a game in Flash Player (as FlashDevelop does when you hit F5), can it read files from the disk?
(09:17:46)<tametick>not sure
(09:17:49)<tametick>i think it can
(09:17:53)<randomnine>awesome
(09:17:56)<tametick>with geturl or something
(09:18:07)<tametick>but that can't be used when deploying on the web of course
(09:18:09)<tametick>i mean it can
(09:18:20)<tametick>but i rather not have portals depends on a file on our server
(09:18:32)<randomnine>yeah, of course
(09:18:43)<randomnine>i figured on doing something like embedding the text files in the .swf
(09:18:51)<randomnine>and having it try to read locally for updates
(09:19:28)<randomnine>so for balance changes etc just change the text files, and they'll be compiled in next time you rebuild
(09:20:06)<randomnine>assuming it'll work like that
(09:20:24)<tametick>yeah sounds good
(09:20:52)<tametick>you can see if Configuration.debug == true and read the files otherwise rely on them being compiled into the game
(09:21:05)<randomnine>cool
(09:21:50)<tametick>i haven't integrated the resource rebuilding with compiling 
(09:22:06)<tametick>you have to manually run the batch file
(09:22:14)<tametick>but maybe some cleverer solution can be found
(09:22:37)<randomnine>oh right, we can just set a pre-build command line in flashdevelop
(09:22:44)<tametick>like if the resource.xml file was last changed after resources.swf run the bat file
(09:22:48)<tametick>right
(09:23:06)<tametick>but it needs to be clever otherwise it adds several seconds to the compile time every time
(09:23:10)<tametick>which is annoying when debugging 
(09:23:13)<randomnine>hmm
(09:23:15)<tametick>and making small changes
(09:23:18)<randomnine>good point
(09:23:37)<tametick>pretty sure you can check time stamps somehow
(09:23:39)<randomnine>i guess swfmill isn't that smart
(09:23:42)<tametick>on the xml and swf files
(09:24:01)<Joist>tametick: randomnine it can only read stuff from disk through the flash api, which means opening an alert window and you selecting the file in question each time
(09:24:04)<tametick>well it's out bat file that isn't smart, there might be a better way of doing it
(09:24:10)<tametick>it was just a quick hack
(09:24:34)<tametick>oh
(09:24:47)<randomnine>joist: good to know, thanks. is there a way of running Flash that means disk access is OK?
(09:25:16)<Joist>randomnine: no, but any plaintext file you include in your source/data folders will get compiled into the application
(09:25:42)<Joist>hmm
(09:25:54)<Joist>you could maybe put the text file in a dropbox and point flash to the file url
(09:26:12)<randomnine>hehe. it sounds like just rebuilding to see changes will be quicker than putting everything in text files
(09:26:31)<tametick>you can geturl's on local files too i think
(09:27:15)<tametick>i am pretty sure it's possible and not that complicated randomnine, especially as we only need it for the test version. the release version doesn't require it 
(09:27:17)<Joist>tametick: oh? that's interesting I'd never heard of that
(09:27:40)<tametick>well it's all running in the flash projector this isn't running in the browser 
(09:28:06)<tametick>anyway this is just speculation but i am pretty sure it's possible, you'll need to search a bit
(09:28:26)<Joist>http://www.republicofcode.com/tutorials/flash/as3externaltext/
(09:28:28)<Joist>interesting
(09:28:45)<randomnine>i'm looking into it, i'll give it a try
(09:29:03)<randomnine>oh, good find
(09:30:38)<tametick>yeah that's it, URLRequest
(09:33:43)<randomnine>hmm, it'd be possible in AIR via flash.filesystem.File
(09:34:05)<tametick>yeah but it's a bit cumbersome to run the air version
(09:34:34)<Joist>not sure how to add the callback function in haxe
(09:34:35)<tametick>URLRequest sounds like the easier option to me. it's only something we do during dev anyway
(09:34:55)<tametick>it's exactly the same way as in as3 Joist 
(09:35:10)<Joist>really?
(09:35:14)<tametick>randomnine: if you want to run the air version, there is an air directory 
(09:35:24)<tametick>in it another flashdevelop project file
(09:35:51)<randomnine>cool. that might be the cleanest way to do it
(09:36:22)<tametick>it copies bin/cq.swf when you compile/run it, so you need to have it open at the same time as running the cq project in another instance of FD
(09:36:37)<tametick>since it doesn't compile cq.swf itself
(09:36:48)<tametick>that's why i think URLRequest would be easier 
(09:37:52)<Joist>hmm, it's not picking up the text file in the same dir as the swf
(09:39:12)<Joist>nope got it
(09:39:27)<Joist>yeah this is neat
(09:43:05)<Joist>snippet - http://pastie.org/2710437
(09:43:20)<Joist>then just have "testtext.txt" next to the swf
(09:45:46)<randomnine>hehe, yep. that's what i ended up with
(09:47:19)<Joist>I wonder if someone's written a file wrapper for the different haxe targets
(12:22:51)<randomnine>ok, got mob data loading from a text file
(12:23:12)<randomnine>lunch time ^_^
(12:24:25)<tametick>\o/
(12:24:45)<tametick>just noticed that bug 2 doesn't happen anymore
(12:25:51)<wl>Yes, it does not happen anymore, but the bug where you can see hp bars in the fog is back
(12:26:05)<tametick>it's not back, it wasn't resolved 100%
(12:26:09)<wl>Oh?
(12:26:15)<tametick>it happens in some circumstances 
(12:26:19)<wl>I never had it happen after the fix back then and now it happens all the time
(12:26:26)<tametick>hrm
(12:26:27)<tametick>ok
(12:26:34)<tametick>maybe something reverted then
(12:26:52)<tametick>you mean when you injure a monster and then don't see it anymore?
(12:26:56)<wl>Yes
(12:26:58)<tametick>or does it linger after killing the monster?
(12:27:07)<tametick>these are 2 separate bugs 
(12:27:13)<wl>Not seeing a monster due to fog/invisible still lists the hp bar
(12:27:21)<wl>I never had hp bars stay after killing a monster
(12:27:22)<tametick>ok i'll add it back to the list then
(12:27:29)<tametick>yeah that was the old bug that was fixed
(12:35:04)<randomnine>can you still target monsters in the fog with spells?
(12:35:11)<tametick>you should be able to
(12:35:15)<tametick>*shouldn't
(12:35:19)<tametick>if you can it's a bug
(12:35:22)<randomnine>i noticed before you could do that even if they didn't have an hp bar yet
(12:35:25)<randomnine>if you guessed right
(12:35:57)<wl>I think you can do it if you see the hp bar
(12:36:14)<wl>At least for invisible, not sure with fog
(12:36:42)<tametick>if you don't see the bar you can;t target them in FoW, not sure about with bard
(12:36:44)<tametick>*bars
(12:36:56)<tametick>invisible is another issue and if that is the case that's another bug
(12:37:52)<tametick>wl: bars don't show up in FoW for me, just tried it
(12:38:08)<tametick>maybe it only happens is particular circumstances? or could it be that you are not on the latest version?
(12:38:19)<tametick>the one here is currently up to date:
(12:38:20)<tametick>http://cardinalquest.com/for_greg/
(12:38:25)<tametick>and it doesn't happen to me there
(12:38:32)<Joist>tametick: they show up in the fog for me, it never doesn't happen for me
(12:38:45)<tametick>Joist: can you try in the link i just posted?
(12:38:50)<Joist>ok
(12:38:57)<tametick>might need to clear the cache for it to get the latest version
(12:39:06)<tametick>if it loads instantly it's loading from your cache
(12:39:57)<Joist>hmm
(12:40:09)<Joist>oh, I think I know what may be happening
(12:40:33)<wl>Just tested
(12:40:35)<Joist>if the monster is damaged from full health while hidden by the fog the bar appears and isn't removed if the mob exits/enters the fog
(12:40:46)<wl>The showing hp bars for mobs in the fog only happens from floor 2 onwards
(12:41:04)<wl>It also happens if it is damaged while being seen
(12:42:03)<wl>And you can not cast spells on them
(12:42:12)<wl>Now going to try with invis
(12:43:43)<wl>Okay
(12:43:46)<tametick>damn pesky border-case bugs :p
(12:43:54)<wl>hp bars of invisible mobs are also displayed
(12:43:57)<wl>And I can even target them
(12:44:18)<tametick>ok that's another bug, and a more serious one since it actually affects gameplay
(12:44:20)<wl>And about version: I'm using the 1.1c release
(12:44:33)<tametick>the linked above is slightly more up to date
(12:44:35)<Joist>tametick: yep, level 2 on for me
(12:45:17)<tametick>added to list 
(12:45:20)<Joist>tametick: and yeah, you can target invis'd mobs with spells if you remember the square
(12:45:37)<tametick>Joist: but their bars are not shown?
(12:45:51)<tametick>or maybe because they haven't been injured yet
(12:45:55)<Joist>tametick: when they are invis? Maybe I've never noticed
(12:46:21)<wl>http://wl.attrib.org/cq/1.png
(12:46:54)<tametick>added it wl 
(12:46:56)<tametick>thanks
(12:47:13)<Joist>wl: how are you running it in a window?
(12:47:20)<tametick>f2
(12:47:37)<Joist>goddamn it
(12:47:48)<Joist>is that a thing for all flash?
(12:48:09)<tametick>no
(12:48:14)<tametick>i added it manually 
(12:48:23)<Joist>ah
(12:48:43)<tametick>there is an item on the list to add a menu option for it, like for muting the sounds/music
(12:50:21)<wl>Just tested and you can also target invisible enemies even if they have no hp bar
(12:50:31)<wl>In that case the targeting cursor remains red, but you can press enter
(12:50:43)<wl>If a hp bar is displayed the cursor even goes green as seen in the screenshot
(12:52:15)<tametick>added as bug
(12:52:23)<wl>Hmm, not it is also showing green even though no hp bar
(12:52:36)<wl>So it isn't even guesswork, just checking where the cursor turns green
(12:52:40)<wl>*now
(12:53:20)<tametick>yeah the cursor code probably just doesn't check for inv
(12:54:25)<wl>This is really weird, just now the cursor stayed red again
(12:54:56)<wl>ahh, enfeeble cursor stays red on invis, fireball goes green
(12:55:25)<wl>Why is that different :o
(12:59:04)<tametick>don't know
(01:03:33)<randomnine>anyone know how to embed a text file in the SWF? can't find anything in the SWFMill documentation
(01:10:47)<tametick>never really tried it
(01:11:46)<Joist>randomnine: the lazy mans way is to just declare it as a string
(01:12:20)<randomnine>mmh, i'd hoped to build from the existing .txt rather than duplicating stuff and risking forgetting to do it
(01:12:39)<tametick>you know
(01:12:44)<Joist>yeah that's fair enough, I know how to do it in as3
(01:12:48)<Joist>no clue in haxe though
(01:12:52)<randomnine>as3 appears to have an [Embed] metatag that does the job, doesn't look like HaXe supports that directly
(01:13:01)<Joist>yep
(01:13:04)<tametick>i am adding the generated resource.swf to cq.swf via FD
(01:13:17)<tametick>you can do the same for your text file
(01:13:53)<tametick>right click -> add to library
(01:14:09)<randomnine>it can't do that for .txt files
(01:14:10)<tametick>don't know if that works for text files but it works the same as embedding for swfs,mp3,pngs, etc
(01:14:16)<tametick>hrm
(01:14:19)<tametick>don't know them
(01:14:23)<tametick>but i am sure there is a way
(01:15:08)<tametick>them/then
(01:17:23)<randomnine>i could embed them in an as3 library swf and link that in, but i'm not sure that's getting *simpler* >_>
(01:17:34)<tametick>yeah
(01:17:36)<randomnine>it'd be part of the generate resources step though
(01:17:38)<tametick>i am sure there is a simple way
(01:18:21)<tametick>swfmill already creates an as3 library swf
(01:18:25)<tametick>that's resources.swf
(01:19:17)<tametick>randomnine: if you can't figure it out maybe it would be easiest to keep it in source form but just in an easily editable form
(01:19:30)<randomnine>yeah, honestly i think that's the simplest solution atm
(01:19:35)<tametick>rather than mixed in with a ton of logic 
(01:20:31)<tametick>however i still like your idea that if it detects the appropriate text file it changes the stats accordingly 
(01:20:42)<tametick>so balancing will not require compiling 
(01:20:58)<randomnine>i'll just duplicate the text files in source for now
(01:21:22)<tametick>but when deployed in the web you just can;t use that. it's not really a hindrance since it's just for making our lives simpler
(01:21:26)<randomnine>just means we need to be sure to copy balance changes from the runtime files to the source before shipping
(01:21:38)<tametick>right
(01:21:59)<tametick>well best would be if the text files can contain all changes, not just everything 
(01:22:03)<tametick>*only changes
(01:22:30)<tametick>i.e. do the text files require entering all monsters or can you just write down the bandits and the rest will be unchanged?
(01:22:46)<randomnine>well, they'll have all the stuff in there to start with, so you just change what you want
(01:22:49)<randomnine>it's quite compact
(01:23:02)<wl>Well, if you have those texts
(01:23:22)<wl>But for modding it would be easier if I could just create a .txt and change one monster
(01:24:44)<randomnine>ok, we can look at that later
(01:26:33)<tametick>yeah that would be safer while balancing too. i just edit the one monster and when i'm done i cut and paste it into the code
(01:26:42)<tametick>so i know i'm done when the file is empty again
(01:26:58)<tametick>but yeah that can be the next step, doesn't have to be all at once
(02:21:18)<tametick>just received an email with some insanely extensive bug report
(02:21:27)<tametick>fwd'd to the 3 of you 
(02:30:48)<randomnine>mm, that's good stuff
(02:31:11)<tametick>i know right? even in a nicely formatted pdf
(02:31:19)<tametick>best bug report i ever recieved 
(02:31:25)<tametick>*received 
(02:32:33)<randomnine>benefits of working with a professional tester :)
(02:33:03)<tametick>that is still free of charge!
(02:33:27)<tametick>some of the stuff he reported are not bugs, but if they appear that way we probably need to think about it
(02:33:41)<randomnine>oh, awesome
(02:33:42)<randomnine>yeah
(02:33:54)<randomnine>it's all sound usability stuff
(02:34:12)<randomnine>re: the coins i just assumed there'd be a shop further down
(02:34:23)<tametick>yeah that was the plan at some point :p
(02:34:35)<tametick>we could add shops to deluxe tho
(02:34:39)<tametick>should be pretty easy
(02:34:54)<tametick>just in menu form, and need 1 shopkeeper tile
(02:35:17)<tametick>once we're that far in i'll ask stephen for a shopkeeper sprite
(02:35:25)<tametick>did i email you all the new sprites?
(02:36:25)<randomnine>there was a bunch of stuff a week and a half ago
(02:36:44)<tametick>yeah just several spritesheets
(02:36:50)<randomnine>that's the one
(02:39:23)<tametick>the last 2 (with _ben at the end) are from another artist, will probably not use all of his stuff
(02:39:32)<tametick>and some of it doesn't mesh with the current style too much
(02:39:37)<tametick>but can probably use some of it
(02:40:14)<tametick>it's from one of the players that offered his assistance 
(02:41:16)<tametick>btw one of the reasons i asked you to externalize the monsters is that they are not really that well balanced right now
(02:41:29)<tametick>the minotauers are way too tough compared to the other monsters
(02:42:05)<tametick>it's ok that they are a challenge but IMO the game needs to more moderately increase in difficulty before them so that the spike isn't as huge
(02:46:19)<randomnine>well, we should now be able to rig something up so with a keypress you can reload the monster stats and load the start of the level again
(02:47:52)<tametick>sounds good :)
(02:48:09)<randomnine>assuming i read it right that you save game state at the start of each level?
(02:48:18)<tametick>you can see in the areas that check key strokes, that some keys are only reacted on in debug mode (Configuration.debug)
(02:48:36)<tametick>randomnine: there is no save/load atm
(02:48:39)<konijn_>I really like that testing service
(02:48:53)<tametick>that's another good thing to have for 1.2 if you can manage it
(02:49:00)<randomnine>ah. k
(02:49:11)<tametick>shouldn't be too hard, konijn_ started working on something like that a little while ago iirc
(02:49:31)<randomnine>i saw data/SaveLoad.hx, assumed it was functional
(02:49:39)<randomnine>cool
(02:50:09)<tametick>nah we deactivated it. talk to konijn_ maybe you can take over while he works on getting the ios version up to speed
(02:51:23)<randomnine>k
(02:51:42)<tametick>but it's not the topest of priorities atm. if you'd like maybe you can jump to it after you finish externalizing everything (loot, player classes, etc). otherwise you can add the new monsters/items/spell/etc we have graphics for
(02:51:45)<tametick>your call
(02:52:41)<tametick>but maybe it's better you add those when you know the game better, otherwise you might not be able to make good balance choices for the new content 
(02:54:09)<randomnine>yeah, i still haven't finished the game even
(03:25:50)<konijn_>back
(03:25:53)<konijn_>patches..
(04:46:59)<jday>I'm not convinced that monsters are the first thing to externalize, and until the build process is improved it'll only help so much.  (Indeed, as randomnine says, it will help us edit them in-game -- I'm certainly sold on that idea.)
(04:47:37)<tametick>what are you suggesting jday?
(04:47:56)<jday>Spells and monster types need to be moved away from their current enums, first.  In fact, I think spells should probably be the first target.
(04:48:10)<jday>Because otherwise too much of the monster loading code will be devoted to that.
(04:48:12)<tametick>jday: according to him he is now loading monster stats from text files on start up
(04:48:15)<tametick>dynamically 
(04:48:25)<jday>Never mind me, then.  I didn't read enough of it.
(04:48:28)<randomnine>mosnter and item parameters are now loading from text files
(04:48:48)<randomnine>the number of monsters/items is still driven off those enums etc., haven't touched that.
(04:49:34)<jday>Ah, yeah, there will be quite a lot to gain that way.
(04:51:14)<randomnine>yeah, atm every item etc has a unique graphic
(04:51:15)<tametick>the important thing is that it should make balancing easy randomnine 
(04:51:21)<randomnine>yeah, i got that covered.
(04:51:30)<randomnine>i'm pushing the changes now
(04:51:57)<tametick>it's not for moding it's for balancing.
(04:51:59)<tametick>cool
(04:52:17)<randomnine>will be a minute while i learn how to merge
(04:52:22)<tametick>if it makes modding easy that's a nice bonus 
(04:53:18)<jday>As long as it's at least as easy for us to add totally new things and change how things are done (and I suspect it will make it easier), I'm happy with it.
(04:53:37)<jday>That's one reason I want the enums gone -- they'll interact poorly with that goal.
(04:54:06)<randomnine>yeah, if we clear that stuff out to the .txts then we'll be able to define new monsters/items trivially
(04:54:54)<jday>Presumably we'll be putting in the coordinates of the monster's sprite in the sheets?
(04:55:37)<tametick>please remember that we can't have extra files on the web versiin
(04:55:46)<tametick>so it should be able to operate without these files present 
(04:55:58)<jday>And among other things, I'll be wanting to add behavior attributes.  They'll just be booleans -- if you have them, you have them -- but they instruct the AI to do things or not to do them.
(04:56:08)<jday>tametick: But we can put it in our resources, can't we?
(04:56:09)<randomnine>tametick: yup
(04:56:23)<randomnine>i've written a quick C program which reads the .txt files and spits out a .hx file that embeds them
(04:56:30)<tametick>oh really
(04:56:32)<tametick>nice
(04:56:32)<randomnine>so if we ship the .swf without the text files it's got them internally
(04:57:21)<tametick>and you call that one in the batch file?
(04:57:24)<randomnine>yup
(04:57:27)<tametick>cool
(04:57:37)<jday>One of the things I've liked about haxe is that the object notation is the same as js -- so you really can embed data easily, already.
(04:57:59)<tametick>did you upload the windows exe? i don't have a c compiler set up on the windows machine
(04:57:59)<randomnine>there we go, changes pushed
(04:58:07)<randomnine>yup
(04:58:09)<tametick>and we depend on windows for FD anyway
(04:58:12)<tametick>cool
(04:58:19)<tametick>sounds good
(04:58:24)<randomnine>though you only need that .exe to make builds which won't have the .txts anyway
(04:58:32)<tametick>right
(04:58:33)<randomnine>because if they're there, of course they override the embedded data
(04:58:48)<tametick>sounds good
(04:59:38)<tametick>maybe you can add another batch file that build the whole flash version? it basically only needs to execute haxe kongHaxe\build.xml iirc
(04:59:49)<tametick>and copy bin/cq.swf
(04:59:56)<tametick>nm that can be done later
(05:00:01)<tametick>it's not that important 
(05:00:11)<randomnine>want to have a look at the text files? figured it was a reasonably clean format for the limited amount of parameters we have
(05:00:33)<jday>I was thinking that since we don't expose hp to the player numerically (except as numbers in combat, which can be scaled as we please), we should crank up all damage and hp tenfold.
(05:00:38)<tametick>i'm in the middle of auro but if it's ok for jday it's ok for me
(05:01:02)<jday>randomnine: I'll experiment with shelving.  I've never done that.  Just a moment.
(05:01:32)<randomnine>hm. statistically that'd have a slight averaging effect on damage so ranges would need to be expanded to compensate
(05:01:43)<randomnine>but it'd make it easier to balance stuff
(05:01:46)<tametick>jday: why would you do that?
(05:01:52)<tametick>H
(05:01:53)<jday>And we could tweak the ranges, too.
(05:01:57)<tametick>ah
(05:02:20)<jday>tametick: The damage levels early in the game are so close to 1 that you can't really tweak them without huge consequences.
(05:02:52)<tametick>how about making them floats instead of ints?
(05:02:53)<tametick>just an idea
(05:03:04)<tametick>then it's not an issue
(05:03:18)<tametick>we are only showing bars anyway
(05:03:18)<jday>I wouldn't mind it; it's a little messy for the damage side of things.  It might be easier for us to think and balance in terms of ints.
(05:03:27)<tametick>as you wish
(05:03:28)<randomnine>makes no difference either way i reckon
(05:04:26)<tametick>it's easiest for me to think in terms of dice, that's why so many of the damage types can be represented as x + y*(d6/d8/d10/d12)
(05:04:44)<tametick>but it wouldn't bother me if it makes balancing easier for you
(05:05:20)<tametick>i know it's strange but the most "natural" stat range for me is 3 to 18 :p
(05:05:53)<tametick>too many years of playing d&d i reckon 
(05:05:55)<randomnine>what's kobold_blank/werewolf_blank/minotauer_blank about? in SpriteMonsters::new
(05:06:09)<tametick>randomnine: look at the spritesheet in rsrc
(05:06:14)<tametick>and while you are at it
(05:06:24)<tametick>replace these 3 from the new spritesheet i email you :)
(05:06:47)<randomnine>ah, i see
(05:06:53)<tametick>and add them to the game. jday can guide you if you have trouble. but looking at the mobfactory it should be pretty simple
(05:07:11)<randomnine>well, i've rewritten that whole section. heh
(05:07:37)<tametick>yeah so you should have seen where it's used. there were just 3 types of these monsters instead of 4 for the others
(05:07:50)<tametick>so there were "holes" in the spritesheet
(05:07:55)<randomnine>yeah, i see
(05:08:03)<randomnine>so it's padded to keep things aligned in the spritesheet
(05:08:49)<tametick>yeah but the facotry doesn't take these "blank" once
(05:08:51)<tametick>*ones
(05:08:54)<randomnine>ya
(05:08:55)<randomnine>cool
(05:09:00)<tametick>which is what you'd have to change when you add them
(05:09:27)<randomnine>i think i'll just have mobs.txt specify the spritesheet index
(05:14:50)<tametick>part of the reason i did it with that names array is that you don't have to start counting indexes 
(05:15:13)<tametick>you just open the sprite sheet in an image viewer and look at the matrix in flashdevelop
(05:15:45)<tametick>that way if we add a couple sprites in the middle of the sprite sheet it won't be a pain in the butt to shift the whole thing
(05:16:01)<tametick>you just enter the sprite names in the right position instead of starting to edit indexes
(05:16:11)<randomnine>hmm. ok
(05:16:48)<tametick>i started off with indexes actually 
(05:17:13)<tametick>i only later switched to the current method because it was such a pain in the ass everytime the artist changed the spritesheet 
(05:17:33)<randomnine>hehe
(05:33:03)<jday>randomnine: Where is mobs.txt?
(05:34:12)<randomnine>bin/
(05:34:41)<tametick>if you put it in src FlashDevelop will automatically copy it to bin when you compile 
(05:35:16)<tametick>(i think)
(05:35:17)<randomnine>but we want to be editing the one in bin/ and not losing changes
(05:35:33)<tametick>ah
(05:35:35)<tametick>ok
(05:35:53)<tametick>so are there now default values in the source
(05:36:03)<tametick>and the txt file in bin overrides those if it exists?
(05:36:24)<randomnine>yup
(05:36:36)<randomnine>the default values in the source are updated from the file in bin/ when you run generate_resources.bat
(05:37:13)<tametick>sounds kinda backwards but i trust you know what you're doing :)
(05:37:18)<jday>randomnine: The format is clean; you were right to prefer that.  When I add AI tags I'll probably just add them as a string field.
(05:37:30)<randomnine>safe
(05:37:38)<randomnine>i've now added a sprite parameter and a weight parameter
(05:37:55)<jday>Weight?
(05:37:56)<randomnine>so we can have multiple monsters with the same sprite, and weight the probability of different monsters within a class spawning
(05:38:03)<jday>Ah!
(05:38:08)<randomnine>eg. we could have two different kinds of kobold mage with different spells
(05:38:15)<randomnine>that sort of thing
(05:38:25)<tametick>cqTextEmbed.exe - Unable To Locate Component
(05:38:28)<tametick>This application has failed to start because MSVCR100D.dll was not found. Re-installing the application may fix this problem. 
(05:38:48)<randomnine>ah, that's part of the MSVC 2010 runtime
(05:38:59)<randomnine>i'll commit the .dll
(05:39:00)<tametick>can you commit that next to the exe too?
(05:39:02)<tametick>thanks
(05:39:38)<tametick>if you write your script in haxe/neko it would even be platform independent ;)
(05:39:45)<jday>randomnine: And when they get compiled to .hx, where do they end up?
(05:39:50)<tametick>but that's not a priority at all
(05:39:56)<randomnine>jday: /data/StatsFileEmbed.hx
(05:40:08)<jday>Because I'm thinking all we really need to do is copy it in and have it available as a string, which we can then read exactly the same way.
(05:40:12)<randomnine>tametick: i'm comfier in C++ than HaXe, and i've never used neko... so it would have taken more htan half an hour
(05:40:16)<randomnine>yeah, that's what it does
(05:40:33)<jday>Ok, excellent.
(05:40:34)<tametick>that's fine randomnine 
(05:40:38)<randomnine>*than
(05:40:51)<tametick>if someone really wants to develop on something other than windows they can compile the c program
(05:40:58)<tametick>it looks really neat randomnine 
(05:41:06)<tametick>even the formating in the generated hx file :)
(05:41:14)<tametick>it looks like crawl's manual pages
(05:41:46)<tametick>ah it's actually your text format
(05:41:49)<tametick>neat
(05:41:56)<randomnine>hehe
(05:41:58)<tametick>yeah can't think of any better way of doing it
(05:42:44)<tametick>it's really easy to see at a glance what's what
(05:43:18)<randomnine>heh, i think it's the format the tuning parameters had in GTA 1
(05:43:32)<randomnine>or possibly GTA 3. one of them
(05:43:44)<tametick>where did you get so smart randomnine :p
(05:44:11)<randomnine>lol, i'd completely forgotten that i'd ever done any gta modding
(05:44:47)<randomnine>ok, the new mobs.txt format will be ready to push in a few minutes, just going to run through and test that it isn't accidentally spawning bandits forever or something
(05:45:15)<tametick>it just looks so good. like if i'd be making a new p&p rpg system today that needs text that'd be read by humans i'd use a format like that 
(05:46:00)<randomnine>yeah, once i wrote it out i realised it looked pretty similar to p&p rpg/wargame stats tables
(05:49:54)<randomnine>...should i be seeing a kobold, a succubus and a spider all on level 3?
(05:50:07)<randomnine>the system occasionally spawns a monster from a deeper level on purpose, right?
(05:50:12)<wl>succubus yes, kobold yes, spider I think not
(05:51:28)<tametick>yes
(05:52:03)<jday>I do like the variety it adds.
(05:52:03)<randomnine>cool
(05:52:07)<tametick>i think succubus is the normal "strong" monster of level 3 wl 
(05:52:15)<randomnine>then i think this is set, going to push and work on the same fix for items
(05:52:18)<tametick>and the spider is probably an out-of-depth monster
(05:52:28)<wl>Hmm, never seen a spider on floor 3
(05:52:38)<randomnine>then we can add like thre times as many items as variations :D~
(05:52:45)<randomnine>also, three times.
(05:52:48)<jday>Looking forward to that!
(05:53:00)<jday>And if we add anything that catches an artist's fancy, we'll end up with a sprite.
(05:53:03)<tametick>wl: if it messes things up we will see it pretty easily 
(05:53:08)<wl>Yeah
(05:53:27)<randomnine>yeah, i like the simplicity of the item system, but just adding variant names would be cool
(05:53:44)<tametick>randomnine: once you get to spells
(05:53:52)<tametick>there is one change i would like to have eventually 
(05:53:56)<randomnine>yeah?
(05:54:15)<tametick>of adding special attributes (the example i need is a spell that charges via attack and not via spirit)
(05:54:32)<tametick>but i think we'll need custom code for every special attributes
(05:54:40)<tametick>since by their nature they are not part of the base system
(05:55:02)<jday>That's not all we have to do with them.  I'm wanting to rework buffs slightly, because of how they're really used in practice.
(05:55:20)<tametick>jday: that's what's needed for ranged weapons anyway
(05:55:22)<jday>Special attributes should get shoved in a single string, as long as they're boolean-ish.
(05:55:41)<randomnine>mm. cool
(05:55:42)<tametick>yeah or a List<String>
(05:55:54)<randomnine>well this stuff is really easy to extend, so no problem there
(05:56:07)<tametick>or even a List<SpecialAttributes> with the SpecialAttributes being an enum
(05:57:36)<randomnine>yeah, could do. atm the way potion effects/buffs are handled is a bit messy but it covered the existing uses
(05:58:19)<jday>I've got a ton of stuff I'm looking forward to doing once I'm through my present tribulation.
(05:58:44)<randomnine>how's the UI going?
(05:59:00)<tametick>yeah that buff system was there since like week 2 of the game;s lige
(05:59:02)<tametick>*life
(05:59:07)<tametick>when it was far smaller than it is now
(06:01:20)<randomnine>ok, mobs.txt update pushed to repo
(06:05:07)<tametick>talking to the kongregate guy right now
(06:05:32)<tametick>really hoping cq gets the get-go finally...
(06:05:52)<tametick>he had a tendency of stepping on otherwise really rare bugs till now 
(06:06:01)<tametick>but i think now all of these are fixed
(06:07:02)<jday>randomnine: Take a quick gander at the stuff in src/cq/ui/inventory.  It's astonishing.
(06:07:20)<tametick>nooooo
(06:07:39)<tametick>i was hoping to keep his innocence for a while longer 
(06:08:15)<tametick>but now it's all fixed up and making perfect sense after your refactoring, right jday 
(06:08:30)<jday>Getting there, tametick!
(06:09:06)<tametick>;)
(06:09:38)<tametick>i think that's the last of the dark caverns in the source base
(06:09:47)<tametick>at least among those i haven't yet gotten used to
(06:09:52)<jday>I'm pretty sure it is.
(06:12:26)<randomnine>:D
(06:12:51)<randomnine>i'm moving all the descriptions in the code out to descriptions.txt
(06:13:19)<randomnine>y'know, if you ever want CQ localised for foreign languages, this'll make it really easy.
(06:14:06)<randomnine>could dump other stuff to files in a couple hours tops, then just send the game off to a translator with the text files for them to fiddle with
+++ Start of log: Mon Oct 17 18:23:51 UTC 2011 +++
(06:27:27)<konijn_>too late
(06:33:51)<randomnine>can you have enchanted potions?
(06:34:11)<tametick>nope you only have the 5 potions types
(06:34:19)<randomnine>ok
(06:34:33)<randomnine>just asking 'cause the code here is trying to enchant potions
(06:34:35)<randomnine>hehe
(06:34:42)<randomnine>i guess it's just ignored
(06:34:45)<tametick>ah yes
(06:34:53)<tametick>it's enchanting a % of all generated items
(06:34:58)<tametick>and not really care what kind of item
(06:35:06)<tametick>but it's harmless 
(08:09:20)<randomnine>right, i've pushed the latest. we can now add new items with reckless abandon
(08:09:39)<randomnine>every item has a level range they're allowed to spawn on and a relative probability
(08:10:09)<tametick>so are they spawning exactly the same way they did before right now?
(08:10:12)<randomnine>yup
(08:10:16)<tametick>cool :)
(08:10:22)<tametick>what's left? spells?
(08:10:33)<tametick>and player classes i guess
(08:10:36)<randomnine>yeah, and being able to add new potions... i'm not sure if that's useful though
(08:10:44)<tametick>it's a big step forward!
(08:10:59)<tametick>well we will need to rework the ui a bit to account for that 
(08:11:10)<randomnine>maybe i should add a field for the enchant effect on items
(08:11:13)<tametick>so maybe let's delay that to later
(08:11:18)<randomnine>so we can add dozens of rare special versions of everything
(08:11:25)<randomnine>rather than having random enchants
(08:11:41)<tametick>yeah, that special effect of the spell can be moved to cqitem, which i think is the parent of both
(08:11:55)<tametick>spell is just a subclass of item isn't it?
(08:11:59)<randomnine>yep
(08:12:12)<tametick>oh but it's a bit different 
(08:12:25)<tametick>right now the enchanted items just give you extra buffs
(08:12:26)<randomnine>i meant, the system which enchants 10% of items
(08:12:37)<tametick>which is why they can be created randomly 
(08:12:41)<tametick>right
(08:12:44)<randomnine>we could just add a ton of named enchanted items to items.txt
(08:13:11)<randomnine>with specific buffs and low probability
(08:13:12)<tametick>instead of auto enchanting? 
(08:13:14)<randomnine>yeah
(08:13:33)<tametick>we can also do the diablo thing
(08:13:35)<tametick>with both
(08:13:47)<tametick>you got your magical items and unique items
(08:13:51)<randomnine>mm
(08:14:22)<tametick>not sure which is better. replace them or generate them. with your method they would feel like they have more character 
(08:14:27)<tametick>you know what go for it
(08:14:49)<tametick>make all kinds of quirky ready made magical items instead of the generic ones :)
(08:14:51)<randomnine>:D
(08:15:11)<tametick>but you just volunteered to populate the first batch to replace the auto generated ones! 
(08:17:03)<tametick>it would a lot more work but the more i think about it the more i like the game
(08:17:07)<tametick>the idea that is
(08:17:41)<tametick>would give it that extra bit of lovingly hand-crafted feel 
(08:22:12)<wl>.
(08:24:50)<tametick>now that we're talking text files wl & Joist will surely be happy to lend a hand :p
(08:25:49)<wl>What have text files to do with that?
(08:27:34)<tametick>randomnine moved all item definition to human readable text files
(08:27:39)<tametick>that are easy to understand 
(08:27:45)<tametick>and don't require any coding 
(08:28:22)<wl>Source code files are also human readable (at least when well written)
(08:28:46)<tametick>wl: yeah but these files are a lot easier to understand without knowing anything about the code
(08:28:53)<wl>Yes I know
(08:29:34)<tametick>randomnine: i would seriously consider crowd sourcing it to places like tigsoruce 
(08:29:44)<tametick>i am sure we can get a ton of cool stuff that way
(08:29:58)<tametick>and just pick the best of it
(08:31:03)<randomnine>up to you
(08:31:29)<randomnine>definitely the more people contributing the better
(08:31:39)<tametick>nothing to lose
(08:31:59)<tametick>put up a http://typewith.me/ pad or something and see how it goes
(08:32:25)<tametick>http://willyou.typewith.me/p/cq%20items
(08:32:29)<tametick>voila 
(08:34:15)<tametick>there used to be some way of making it monospaced
(08:34:56)<jday>tametick: If we add more potions, we'd limit the player to having a certain number of potions 'equipped' at a time, I think, and make it take a turn to swap -- would that work out?
(08:35:03)<tametick>there we go
(08:35:05)<tametick>http://piratepad.net/S7VW6EE1wG
(08:35:09)<jday>Either that or we could just pick five random potions to have exist in the dungeon each run.
(08:35:12)<tametick>jday: yeah like spells
(08:35:26)<wl>"Sorry, no heal potions this run"
(08:35:28)<tametick>jday: i think the base concept already exists for spells
(08:35:31)<randomnine>jday: mm, i like that.
(08:35:51)<randomnine>apart from heal potions, the rest could be pretty random
(08:36:07)<tametick>i can go either way. you guys decide 
(08:36:25)<randomnine>it'd differentiate runs even more
(08:36:44)<tametick>is the pirate bat link monospaced for you too? or is it just a local setting?
(08:36:54)<randomnine>yup, monospaced
(08:36:59)<tametick>awesome 
(08:37:12)<tametick>can use it as a test bed to see if crowd sourcing works then :)
(08:38:15)<tametick>need to click the full screen button at the top right for it to not line-wrap
(08:41:03)<tametick>http://twitter.com/#!/wblackall/status/125989850255073281
(08:42:38)<tametick>really cool cover of cardinal quest's menu music!
(10:25:17)<tametick>i'm off chaps
(10:42:24)<Joist>morning all
(10:43:00)<Joist>+o tametick 
(10:43:05)<Joist>fail
(11:16:38)<konijn>man
(11:16:53)<konijn>my two oldest ones are beating each other up as to who can play Cardinal Quest on iPad
(11:17:04)<konijn>and then moan it's still too choppy ;]
(11:24:54)<Joist>ha
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/18 +++
(12:24:47)<Joist>haxe is really quite neat
(12:25:21)<Joist>took about 5 minutes to convert a flash program to cpp/exe
(06:34:20)<Joist>.
(09:54:26)<Joist>morning?
(10:06:22)<randomnine>heyo
(10:11:09)<Joist>hey
(10:11:17)<Joist>not sure if bug or not
(10:11:45)<Joist>is the player meant to go first on a turn or not?
(10:11:56)<Joist>like, when the player has a turn, does his spell get executed first
(10:12:23)<Joist>randomnine: ping :)
(10:19:16)<randomnine>o/
(10:20:05)<Joist>as above :)
(10:20:11)<randomnine>looking now
(10:24:56)<randomnine>it looks like monsters take their turns after you do
(10:25:07)<randomnine>whether your turn's moving, casting a spell, or just passing
(10:25:21)<Joist>hmm
(10:25:38)<Joist>well, I cast a heal but still got killed
(10:26:13)<Joist>it seemed a bit harsh, letting my see my fate and try to escape it
(10:26:21)<randomnine>yeah, trying this out...
(10:26:25)<Joist>also happened once with teleport, I ported away but got smacked and died
(10:26:30)<randomnine>it looks like spells take a moment to take effect
(10:26:42)<randomnine>so even though they start before the monster's turn, the monster still gets a hit in
(10:26:51)<Joist>so actions -> physical attacks exectured -> spells executed?
(10:27:28)<randomnine>if you're fast, it's possible to take another move before a spell takes effect. heh
(10:28:32)<Joist>really? weird
(10:28:44)<randomnine>depending on the spell
(10:28:50)<randomnine>fireball takes a while to move over towards the enemy in real time
(10:29:10)<randomnine>no idea about potions or other spells, but i can see this could cause issues
(10:29:18)<Joist>I just assumed it was instant and the visual was just for show
(10:29:38)<Joist>pots are instant and don't even take one of your turns
(10:30:22)<randomnine>it can take up to half a second of real time for a spell targeting a monster to complete
(10:30:43)<Joist>so if you let that half-second elapse what happens?
(10:30:49)<randomnine>well
(10:30:53)<randomnine>you cast the spell
(10:31:05)<randomnine>the monsters then take their turns immediately
(10:31:11)<randomnine>half a second later, the spell hits
(10:31:28)<Joist>heal though? and teleport? they don't have graphical components
(10:31:33)<randomnine>i'll check heal/teleport
(10:32:32)<Joist>thanks for this btw
(10:35:43)<randomnine>ok, when you heal, i can confirm the heal happens before monster action
(10:37:15)<randomnine>whoa
(10:37:15)<randomnine>no
(10:37:45)<Joist>it doesn't though :)
(10:37:49)<randomnine>hold on a sec
(10:37:58)<Joist>I was wondering what it's meant to do, if it's a bug or a feature :)
(10:38:31)<randomnine>my mistake
(10:38:43)<tametick>morning 
(10:38:45)<randomnine>heal is delayed until *after* enemy turn
(10:39:00)<randomnine>i'll check teleport and blink now
(10:39:04)<Joist>thanks
(10:39:41)<Joist>it just seems like since the game auto-pilots until it's your turn, your moves should execute first
(10:40:22)<randomnine>yeah, definitely with heal/blink/teleport at least as they're panic moves
(10:41:01)<tametick>yeah it's just a disadvantage of the system that only executes the spell after the animation ended
(10:41:04)<randomnine>blink happens after enemy move
(10:41:16)<tametick>so that you won't e.g. see the enemy disappear before the fireball hits
(10:41:41)<Joist>makes sense, but the panic moves have no anims
(10:42:32)<tametick>yeah need to fix it to work as expected 
(10:42:49)<randomnine>teleport happens before enemy turn
(10:42:57)<Joist>cool, no pressure. Just wanted to alert you if it was a bug
(10:43:12)<randomnine>so it looks like heal/blink are the issues
(10:44:00)<randomnine>that's an easy fix
(10:44:21)<randomnine>let me test it works and i'll push it to the repo
(10:46:57)<randomnine>done
(10:47:53)<Joist>randomnine: how about shadow walk?
(10:48:06)<randomnine>hmm, i should have just fixed that as well
(10:48:17)<Joist>I didn't think of it until just now
(10:48:18)<randomnine>let me check
(10:49:18)<randomnine>yep, shadow walk now executes before enemy turn
(10:49:28)<Joist>cheers
(10:52:39)<randomnine>with spells that affect monsters, i think i'll make all of them instant and just have the effect as a purely visual thing, except for fireball which will do its damage calc when you cast, and on kill, mark the enemy as inactive (so it can't act, and you can't attack it - moving into it will be ignored until it's gone) and visually kill it when the effect completes
(10:53:06)<randomnine>something like that
(10:53:21)<Joist>sounds right
(10:53:48)<Joist>heh engine <-> visual is a bit like server <-> client
(10:54:21)<tametick>one of the mistakes i made in cq was that the logic and presentation are too intermingled 
(10:56:36)<Joist>no judgements in prototype land
(12:15:47)<randomnine>okay, i think that's working. so now spells can be created and configured in spells.txt, and damage-dealing spells can have their damage ranges set per-level in spellDamage.txt
(12:15:53)<randomnine>also, spells can charge off different statistics
(12:16:02)<tametick>http://twitter.com/tametick/status/126265464316899329
(12:16:10)<randomnine>so everything's set up for ranged weapons etc
(12:24:08)<randomnine>pushed, enjoy ^_^ i'll do classes next and then get on with bugs
(12:25:44)<tametick>cool
(12:27:19)<wl>Is Cardinal Quest ever not free* ;)
(12:29:18)<tametick>it normally isn't
(12:51:10)<Joist>I managed to buy it at normal price
(12:51:18)<Joist>such a rube :P
(02:26:26)<konijn_>and there was light
(02:26:59)<Joist>it's almost 1am here :(
(02:28:15)<konijn_>australia ?
(02:42:47)<Joist>yup
(02:42:55)<Joist>konijn_: ^
(02:43:44)<konijn_>THANKS
(02:43:48)<konijn_>damn caps
(02:44:00)<Joist>heh
(02:44:07)<konijn_>they turn themselves on, my keyboard messes me up ninja style
(02:44:27)<Joist>I don't even know why we still have the capslock key
(02:44:32)<Joist>I haven't used it in years
(02:46:47)<konijn_>good point
(02:46:53)<konijn_>I could fully live without
(02:46:56)<wl>How else do you write capital letters? :o You have to press the key before and after every capital letter you want to write!
(02:47:09)<Joist>wl: are you kidding? shift
(02:47:21)<konijn_>woosh
(02:47:36)<Joist>so he was kidding?
(02:47:37)<wl>Shift = Magic! Can't trust it!
(02:47:48)<konijn_>yeah
(02:47:50)<wl>Have to go back to the good old days
(02:47:52)<Joist>ok, remap caps lock to right-shift
(02:49:11)<wl>It is entirely possible that I never pressed capslock or right shift on this keyboard on purpose
(02:49:25)<Joist>ha
(02:49:28)<Joist>virgin keys
(02:49:42)<wl>"on purpose"
(02:50:02)<Joist>oh
(02:50:03)<wl>They saw lots of accidental action
(02:50:27)<Joist>I thought you had never pressed them, and you decided preemptively to never press them
(02:50:39)<wl>Right ctrl is probably in the same category
(02:50:44)<Joist>damn ambiguous english
(02:53:50)<wl>No, I am not racist towards keys, I will use all keys that I have a use for, I do not just exclude them because of their shape/color/whatever
(02:54:09)<wl>I might exclude them because they are on the wrong side of the keyboard thoug
(03:26:33)<tametick>wl: on linux i normally remap caps lock to ctrl
(03:28:52)<wl>Actual purpose or just so it is not caps?
(03:33:48)<tametick>easier to reach than left ctrl
(03:51:26)<konijn_>I would turn off capslock on Windows if I could
(03:51:29)<konijn_>I think it's a great ida
(03:51:32)<konijn_>*idea
(03:51:36)<wl>Pretty sure you can change the keyboard layout
(03:54:07)<tametick>cq pay-as-you-wish-day status report: first 3 hours = $70
(03:54:39)<wl>How many purchases?
(03:54:54)<tametick>i don't know
(03:54:55)<tametick>a bunch
(03:55:01)<tametick>most payed $1
(03:55:08)<tametick>which is the minimum amount 
(03:55:24)<wl>Oh you only see the amount?
(03:55:36)<tametick>28 people 
(03:55:50)<tametick>it easiest to see the amount at a glance 
(03:55:52)<wl>Guessing around 20 people paid 1 ;)
(03:56:05)<tametick>probably
(03:56:15)<tametick>1 guy gave $20
(03:56:30)<tametick>and a bunch of $2,3 & 5 ones
(04:23:37)<randomnine>the fighter will feel so much better if we move some skills to work on, say, Attack instead of Spirit
(04:24:20)<randomnine>that and a few stat boosts and he'd be pretty buff
(04:34:25)<Joist>I think I've played it too much to give good data, all the classes feel pretty easy now :)
(04:35:09)<randomnine>i feel like the thief is the easiest, heh. high speed and fairly good spirit
(04:35:29)<Joist>nah, wizard + charm
(04:35:39)<Joist>+ polymorph + magic mirror + fear
(04:35:41)<Joist>uber stall
(04:36:04)<Joist>randomnine: you know what would be neat? a buff spell for the fighter with this buff: when you kill a mob all of your current buffs get their timers reset
(04:36:29)<randomnine>hmm, that might work well as a change to berserk
(04:36:45)<randomnine>also, it'd be subtle, but i think making the starting spells unique to their characters might be good
(04:37:16)<Joist>I agree
(04:37:26)<Joist>but it is very very fun to have 2 shadow walks
(04:37:35)<Joist>infinite invis once you get enough spirit
(04:37:53)<randomnine>hehe
(04:39:11)<randomnine>something so characters can get certain spells free as they level up might be a nice touch too
(04:39:17)<randomnine>especially for the fighter
(04:39:58)<randomnine>it feels a bit like any changes to the spell system to favour the fighter will throw things off for the other two
(04:40:20)<Joist>yeah
(04:40:39)<Joist>you could buff fighter's spririt but make it so that he can't used any ranged spells
(04:40:43)<Joist>or only buffs
(04:41:19)<Joist>just spitballing
(04:46:32)<tametick>randomnine: i agree about making the starting spell unique 
(04:46:40)<tametick>should be a simple change too
(04:47:16)<tametick>and make the characters feel more differentiated 
(04:47:40)<tametick>randomnine: another idea was to bias the spell generation in the dungeon towards the class you picked
(04:47:45)<randomnine>mm
(04:48:06)<tametick>so wizards are more likely to get wizard-y spells, thief's rogue-y spells, etc
(04:48:17)<tametick>also consider that there are 3 more classes coming soon
(04:48:23)<randomnine>yeah
(04:48:40)<tametick>but i would suggest adding these 2 point to the doc
(04:49:01)<tametick>unique starting spell in the new features and maybe biasing the generator in the "things to consider"
(04:50:09)<randomnine>done
(04:50:25)<tametick>thanks
(04:50:44)<tametick>its funny how different people often come to the same conclusions 
(04:51:07)<tametick>like 3 of us came up with the unique starting spell idea one after the other independently 
(04:51:13)<randomnine>hehe
(04:51:16)<tametick>i find it happens quite often with many features 
(04:51:45)<randomnine>unique starting spells, i can do in literally 5 minutes
(04:52:19)<tametick>yeah there is even something existing there for it
(04:52:31)<tametick>there is already a list for spell you can use for generation 
(04:52:42)<tametick>and you just remove the starting spells from it 
(04:53:08)<randomnine>eh, that changed ^^ i'd add a field to spells.txt
(04:53:14)<tametick>k
(04:53:18)<randomnine>minimum level a spell's allowed to spawn at, maybe
(04:53:27)<tametick>k
(04:54:08)<randomnine>anyways, moving everything to text files is done
(04:54:15)<tametick>awesome 
(04:55:30)<randomnine>there, that's all in the repo
(05:16:56)<konijn_>okay
(05:17:07)<konijn_>who broke cardinal quest ??
(05:17:47)<konijn_>class descriptions do not come up
(05:20:55)<konijn_>ah
(05:20:55)<konijn_>cqTextEmbed.exe
(05:21:05)<konijn_>can I have the C code so that I can compile this for mac ?
(05:21:08)<randomnine>ah, sorry
(05:21:09)<randomnine>sure
(05:21:22)<randomnine>actually, that might be a problem
(05:21:38)<randomnine>it's using a Windows filesystem API
(05:22:00)<Joist>randomnine: what did you end up doing to embed the text files?
(05:22:08)<randomnine>but that's bizarre... the embedded stuff should be up to date
(05:22:33)<randomnine>joist: C program that reads the text files and generates a .hx
(05:23:02)<Joist>an empty class with a string? or does it parse the data into nicely formatted vars
(05:23:20)<randomnine>pretty much the former, the parsing is left up to the usual class
(05:23:59)<Joist>cool
(05:24:11)<konijn_>maybe you should write the embedder in haxe
(05:24:20)<konijn_>since haxe is pretty much guaranteed to exist for this project
(05:24:42)<randomnine>thing is, it shouldn't need the embedder to work
(05:24:51)<konijn_>well
(05:24:52)<Joist>konijn_: the point is, the haxe files are already compiled into the swf
(05:25:01)<konijn_>well
(05:25:01)<Joist>it just needs to be run once before compilation
(05:25:02)<randomnine>it should be reading the text files from /bin/
(05:25:07)<konijn_>its not working for iPad
(05:25:12)<randomnine>haha, okay
(05:25:17)<randomnine>well, i'm pushing the source for cqTextEmbed atm
(05:25:20)<Joist>oh, different filesystem?
(05:25:21)<konijn_>cool
(05:25:26)<konijn_>I guess so
(05:25:41)<konijn_>game hangs now
(05:26:09)<randomnine>ok, that's pushed
(05:26:36)<randomnine>so you should be able to port it to mac pretty quickly, it's just the calls to get *.txt in a directory that are win specific
(05:26:39)<randomnine>however
(05:27:01)<randomnine>the file that it generates - data/StatsFileEmbed.hx - should be up to date
(05:27:20)<randomnine>i've been updating that before pushing any changes i've made to the stats files
(05:28:04)<randomnine>if it's not reading data that's in there properly, it's likely an issue in data/StatsFile.hx
(05:28:16)<randomnine>hmm
(05:28:31)<randomnine>go to Main.hx and try commenting out all the calls to loadStatsFile()
(05:28:47)<randomnine>it's quite possible that it's not failing properly if the files aren't there
(05:28:54)<randomnine>that'd fix it
(05:28:59)<konijn_>		// Determine class intro. 		var classes:StatsFile = Resources.statsFiles.get( "classes.txt" ); 		var descriptions:StatsFile = Resources.statsFiles.get( "descriptions.txt" );
(05:29:05)<konijn_>I think this is frelled
(05:29:41)<konijn_>ah
(05:29:52)<konijn_>I should run generate_resources I guess
(05:29:53)<randomnine>yeah, i think what's happening is that, if it can't find the file, it's wiping all the embedded data instead of leaving it alone
(05:30:16)<randomnine>no need, the embedded data's committed so you'll have an up to date version
(05:30:53)<konijn_>I hope that is needed, because debugging an ipa on an iPad on Windows is a b*tch
(05:31:23)<randomnine>well
(05:31:44)<randomnine>try stopping Main.hx from loading the stats files from disk and see if it runs OK on the iPad
(05:32:17)<tametick>randomnine: can you see please that it's not throwing an error pop up if the files are not there?
(05:32:18)<konijn_>oh
(05:32:26)<konijn_>app starts
(05:32:29)<tametick>probably just wrapping in a try catch should do it
(05:32:34)<konijn_>menu shows
(05:32:39)<konijn_>I can only select warrior
(05:32:45)<konijn_>( cannot select other class )
(05:32:50)<konijn_>and class description is ???
(05:33:09)<konijn_>am compiling now, so I can do your suggestion in about 4 minutes, as I am halfway
(05:33:29)<randomnine>tametick: it's not throwing an error
(05:33:57)<randomnine>the problem is, filesystem access is asynchronous and it doesn't handle that right, so by the time it's sent off the file load it's already discarded the old data
(05:34:20)<randomnine>apparently you can request that a non-existent file be loaded just fine
(05:34:50)<randomnine>i'll fix that now
(05:35:49)<konijn_>great
(05:36:04)<konijn_>lemme know :P
(05:36:05)<randomnine>sorry about that :)
(05:36:10)<konijn_>no worries
(05:36:26)<randomnine>so iOS builds take a while, huh?
(05:36:33)<konijn_>though really
(05:36:37)<konijn_>if you want to change CQ
(05:36:42)<konijn_>how about making it render faster
(05:36:43)<konijn_>:P
(05:37:09)<randomnine>haha.
(05:37:13)<randomnine>where does it bog down on ipad?
(05:37:20)<randomnine>anything specific, like slowing down as you reveal more of the map
(05:37:45)<konijn_>the whole kitten kaboodle really
(05:37:56)<randomnine>ah. bum.
(05:38:12)<konijn_>I have removed for mobile the check that waits for animation to finish before the player can make a move
(05:38:29)<konijn_>this makes the game much more playable as attested by my kids fighting over the iPad to playtest Cardinal Quest
(05:38:30)<wl>How bad does it run?
(05:38:40)<randomnine>tbh it's laser fast for me here since all the fixes over the past few weeks. it used to slow down a lot as you explored and played on
(05:38:42)<konijn_>but it skips entire moves
(05:39:19)<konijn_>that's problematic with mobile builds, it has to be faster than laser fast :P
(05:39:22)<konijn_>I guess
(05:39:27)<Joist>konijn_: while a kitten kaboodle would be adorable, the saying is "kit and kaboodle" :)
(05:39:33)<konijn_>rly
(05:39:48)<konijn_>every day I learn
(05:40:02)<Joist>yup, a kit (package) and kaboodle (package). It means "the whole thing"
(05:40:37)<wl>my dictionary says caboodle, so which one is right?
(05:40:43)<Joist>caboodle
(05:40:50)<Joist>but the phrase is kit and kaboodle
(05:40:57)<wl>dict has caboodle for both
(05:41:02)<Joist>yay, english is ridiculous
(05:41:22)<Joist>huh, well it's kaboodle here, so it must be one of those things
(05:42:27)<tametick>randomnine: do you know how flixel renders?
(05:42:45)<Joist>I do, what do you need to know?
(05:42:52)<tametick>we use a haxe port of flixel 2.0. so it's doing the whole rendering to a software buffer thing
(05:43:01)<tametick>Joist: i am only asking to know how much i need to explain 
(05:43:07)<Joist>ah
(05:43:27)<Joist>yeah, software buffer, and in this case it's a bitmapdata object wrapped by a bitmap object
(05:43:34)<tametick>randomnine: which of course means it's not getting sprites on the gpu
(05:43:43)<Joist>but, in later versions of flixel the camera owns the buffer instead of the whole game
(05:43:57)<tametick>for a game with not many sprites moving at the same time like cq i am pretty sure normal flash sprites would be faster
(05:44:04)<tametick>and also would use the gpu on ios/android
(05:44:17)<randomnine>never used flixel
(05:44:27)<tametick>so rewriting that part (which should also make the code simpler) should give a huge performance boost
(05:44:37)<konijn_>isnt each tile a sprite ?
(05:44:44)<randomnine>interesting
(05:44:53)<konijn_>so you have like 12*13 sprites plus decorations and monsters and loots
(05:45:00)<Joist>konijn_: no, tiles are blitted to a tilemap
(05:45:00)<tametick>konijn_: no it's copyPixel()-ing it to the buffer in software
(05:45:43)<tametick>konijn_: can still use the map as a kind of buffer, but all the stuff running on top like the monster, items, player etc can be actual sprites
(05:46:16)<Joist>speaking of hardware acceleration, check it : http://dl.dropbox.com/u/42738960/As3StarlingTest.swf
(05:46:19)<tametick>randomnine: anyway it's not something that has to be RIGHT NOW or something. just fyi, i am guessing if we need performance that would be a relatively easy way of getting radically faster rendering
(05:46:21)<Joist>got starling working :)
(05:47:05)<randomnine>okay, it now handles missing files better... that is, it's still raising an ioError
(05:47:22)<randomnine>i'll add handling for that and push changes
(05:47:40)<tametick>you can do an if(Configuration.standAlone)
(05:47:50)<tametick>if that's false it;s the flash/web version
(05:52:04)<konijn_>tametick : I would not dare to release the iOS version till the game is radically faster
(05:52:07)<randomnine>konijn_: fixed
(05:52:11)<konijn_>cool
(05:52:23)<konijn_>did you do the Configuration.standalone thing ?
(05:52:31)<randomnine>no, i just made it handle missing files
(05:52:47)<konijn_>what does it do in that case ?
(05:52:52)<konijn_>just use the regular code ?
(05:52:58)<randomnine>just uses the embedded data, yeah
(05:53:14)<konijn_>I might add the configuration.standalone myself
(05:53:22)<konijn_>no use in trying to read the file, fail and use regular
(05:53:25)<randomnine>what it should have done in the first place but i'm not used to asynchronous file handling ^^
(05:53:28)<randomnine>yeah
(05:53:28)<konijn_>startup speed is crucial
(05:53:41)<randomnine>feel free to add that in Main.hx round the StatsFile.loadFile() calls
(05:53:41)<konijn_>and render speed
(05:55:11)<tametick_>konijn_: well it won't use the text files on ios anyway
(05:55:25)<tametick_>and on desktops it's not a noticeable delay 
(05:56:35)<Joist>tametick_: you know where you would see a speedup? The alpha shadow layer, if you are using one
(05:56:48)<Joist>alpha is crazy expensive while blitting
(05:57:10)<tametick_>only for the fov
(05:57:12)<konijn_>StatsFileEmbed.loadEmbeddedFiles(); <- do you always need this ? even in standalone mode ?
(05:57:21)<randomnine>yes
(05:57:25)<Joist>yeah, but it's drawing over the whole screen right?
(05:57:25)<randomnine>that's loading the embedded data
(05:57:45)<tametick>Joist: no only over the tiles that require it 
(05:57:50)<tametick>which are most of them
(05:58:21)<Joist>so it's not handled as a separate tilemap?
(05:59:00)<tametick>no
(05:59:18)<tametick>there is no alpha layer
(06:00:04)<Joist>so you redraw the tiles that become visible/hidden to the tilemap buffer when necessary?
(06:00:22)<tametick>it's not just visible hidden
(06:00:30)<tametick>it has a light value
(06:00:37)<tametick>depending on the distance from the player
(06:01:09)<konijn_>compilin.. compilin.. compilin.. 
(06:01:39)<Joist>what I mean is, you are doing it the smart way, only reblitting the tiles that change to a tilemap buffer, so you aren't doing the alpha multiplications every frame right?
(06:07:41)<randomnine>sweet
(06:08:02)<randomnine>now, when you cast fireball on something next to you and kill it, it doesn't get to hit you back first
(06:08:21)<randomnine>still looks the same, but from the moment you cast, the enemy doesn't get to make any more moves
(06:11:32)<randomnine>same with debuffs... guess i need to figure out how this affects polymorph
(06:19:17)<randomnine>joist: it's doing it every frame
(06:19:33)<randomnine>more than that, it's cloning every bitmap, doing an alpha multiply on it, copying the pixels out and then discarding it
(06:19:40)<randomnine>lemme fix that right up
(06:19:49)<Joist>yeah that's the bad way
(06:21:45)<randomnine>it's drawing all the tiles that are off-screen too
(06:22:32)<randomnine>which might not be so bad except it's doing the clone/alpha anyway
(06:22:43)<Joist>wut
(06:23:14)<Joist>modern flixel renders all the tiles to a tilemap buffer, and then renders whatever part of that it needs for the screen
(06:23:23)<Joist>which version did you convert to haxe?
(06:23:45)<Joist>and I don't mean you, I mean the cq team
(06:25:38)<tametick>Joist: 2.0
(06:26:10)<Joist>that should have been supported then
(06:26:24)<Joist>is the map an actual flxtilemap or your own implementation?
(06:27:55)<randomnine>oh, i'm sorry, it only renders the tiles on screen
(06:28:32)<randomnine>i misread that part
(06:28:47)<tametick>flxtilemap but modified 
(06:28:56)<tametick>it might be quite different by now
(06:29:04)<tametick>it was also leaking memory before
(06:29:06)<tametick>and isn't now
(06:42:55)<tametick>http://www.reddit.com/r/IndieGaming/comments/lgjhh/im_putting_my_game_cardinal_quest_is_on_a/
(06:54:51)<randomnine>ok, tilemap is cached to a bitmap now
(06:55:26)<tametick>cool
(06:55:43)<randomnine>doesn't include decorations, which i guess are rendered separately?
(06:56:00)<tametick>yeah there is also a bug with their light levels
(06:56:06)<randomnine>mm
(06:56:06)<tametick>they are always 100% lighten 
(06:56:25)<randomnine>ok, i'll have a look at just baking them into the tiles
(06:56:37)<tametick>konijn_: using gpu mode for the way it currently works would be slower than cpu mode
(06:59:02)<randomnine>konijn_: i've pushed some changes that speed up tilemap rendering, from the sounds of things i doubt it'll fix much but it should be a noticeable improvement
(07:03:04)<tametick>randomnine: that part of the code used to leak memory like a sieve, make sure you dispose() all the bitmapdatas and stuff
(07:03:15)<tametick>i'm a bit paranoid about that these days
(07:03:18)<tametick>:/
(07:03:22)<randomnine>yup
(07:03:59)<randomnine>will do ^_^
(07:18:53)<konijn_>tametick : do you say because of the application.xml change ?
(07:19:04)<tametick>konijn- yes
(07:36:59)<randomnine>o_o okay we could speed up tilemap rendering by something like 4* on top of all this other stuff
(07:37:19)<randomnine>didn't realise everything was working natively at 640x480 and drawing four pixels for every scaled pixel
(07:38:07)<randomnine>we could probably be drawing most of the gameworld to a half-size buffer in the background
(07:40:11)<tametick>randomnine: make sure the texts are still rendering at native res
(07:40:17)<tametick>otherwise they are too hard to read
(07:40:19)<randomnine>yeah, all the stuff up front would still have to
(07:40:30)<tametick>just the tilemap then?
(07:40:39)<randomnine>tilemap and loot, yeah
(07:40:50)<tametick>cool
(07:40:56)<randomnine>or just tilemap even
(07:41:16)<randomnine>could save a good fraction of render time to do something like this
(07:41:51)<randomnine>but there are probably better things to be doing for performance
(07:43:21)<Joist>if you draw everything to a half size buffer in the background you only save cpu for any overdraw
(07:43:33)<Joist>since you need to upscale it when blitting to the canvas anyway
(07:44:27)<Joist>unless you are talking about the alpha blending, in which case that'd probably be worth it
(07:45:25)<randomnine>yeah
(07:45:48)<randomnine>ok, decorations are now baked into the tilemap
(07:58:44)<randomnine>and that's in the repo.
(07:59:23)<randomnine>when konijn gets back, there are some changes in the repo that should speed up rendering a fair bit ^_^
(07:59:40)<randomnine>there's definitely more we can do but i'm going to stop here for the evening, i think
(08:06:24)<konijn_>back again
(08:07:33)<konijn_>thanks
(08:08:32)<konijn_>pulled
(08:08:36)<konijn_>compilin' now
(08:10:55)<konijn_>wow
(08:10:58)<konijn_>that's messed up
(08:11:07)<konijn_>the new build locks my iPad completely
(08:13:52)<konijn_>restart
(08:13:56)<konijn_>and the app works fine, odd
(08:13:57)<konijn_>so
(08:14:01)<Joist>randomnine: you didn't comment out "breakipad()" ?
(08:14:08)<konijn_>:P
(08:14:43)<konijn_>###
(08:14:47)<konijn_>  @
(08:14:56)<konijn_> O#
(08:15:16)<konijn_>in this case, if I press the down key, I will whack the O
(08:15:31)<konijn_>which is kinda fun :P
(08:20:10)<randomnine>hehe. how's it run?
(08:32:25)<konijn_>better
(08:32:34)<konijn_>but still not good enough :P
(08:32:59)<konijn_>what really bothers me is this :
(08:33:20)<konijn_>when my fighter beats up a mob
(08:33:23)<konijn_>that should be really fast
(08:33:31)<konijn_>there is no scrolling, no lighning change etc.
(08:33:32)<konijn_>yet 
(08:33:38)<konijn_>it takes a lot of time
(08:33:41)<konijn_>'lot'
(08:33:43)<konijn_>is relative of 
(08:33:46)<konijn_>but still
(08:33:47)<konijn_>why ??
(08:34:36)<randomnine>wish i knew :p
(08:39:06)<randomnine>i've just pushed a change that speeds up tilemap updates by maybe 10-30%
(08:40:37)<randomnine>think that's probably about as far as tilemap rendering improvements will go for now
(08:41:52)<randomnine>we'll have to profile to find out where the slowdown's coming from
(08:46:17)<konijn_>which tool would you use for that
(08:46:24)<konijn_>FD seems to only have memory profiling ?
(08:49:39)<randomnine>no idea ^_^'
(08:59:35)<mcfroogle>Hello people :-)
(09:05:26)<tametick>konijn_: hrm, not sure if there is a better profiler out there 
(09:05:33)<tametick>maybe in Flash Builder
(09:05:39)<konijn_>I did some googling
(09:05:48)<konijn_>no beans even in flash builder it would seem
(09:06:46)<tametick>hrm
(09:06:49)<tametick>hey mcfroogle 
(09:06:57)<tametick>i am sure there is a way tho
(09:07:03)<tametick>maybe not via a profiler 
(09:07:08)<tametick>but i wouldn't know what it is
(09:07:52)<mcfroogle>hows progress going?
(09:18:07)<tametick>seems pretty good from the sidelines :)
(09:18:28)<tametick>haven't worked on cq this week, i've started a new game
(09:19:11)<tametick>but the chaps here seem to be having things under control 
(09:20:16)<mcfroogle>oh cool ok. what game are you working on? and need any testing done of anything?
(09:20:28)<randomnine>konijn: oldschool way would just be to drill down with timers... looks like there's some basic stuff in flixel/haxel already, if you build with Configuration.debug = true and open the console (console.toggle() from HxlGame.hx)
(09:20:47)<randomnine>just breaks down time spent in update/render/flixel
(09:21:58)<randomnine>well, flixel is update + render. okay, so it basically just times the update loop and the rendering loop
(09:23:50)<mcfroogle>oh yeah just out of intrest is indievania definately going to be the last place CQ will be hosted because broguht it already but will have to repurchase to have it on indievania and get updates in the future
(09:25:27)<randomnine>o_o i'm seeing some frames when you move that take 40+ms
(09:25:37)<randomnine>for the update
(09:27:26)<tametick>konijn_: flash version going up on kong NOW
(09:27:30)<tametick>(or rather, soon)
(09:27:35)<konijn_>great
(09:27:57)<tametick>where were these stats defined again?
(09:28:08)<tametick>so i know what to add on kongregate 
(09:28:35)<tametick>ah in registery 
(09:29:38)<tametick>konijn_: just to be on the safe side
(09:29:50)<mcfroogle>so what actully gets saved in the registry? didn't think it saved anything?
(09:29:59)<konijn_>registry ?
(09:30:02)<konijn_>oh
(09:30:04)<konijn_>nothing
(09:30:06)<konijn_>for now
(09:30:06)<tametick>only these 6 stats in Registry? and their names are the same as the constant 
(09:30:15)<tametick>mcfroogle: not windows registry 
(09:30:17)<konijn_>oh the kong one
(09:30:19)<mcfroogle>the %appdata%
(09:30:19)<konijn_>?
(09:30:21)<mcfroogle>oh ok
(09:30:29)<tametick>we have our own class that is called registry 
(09:30:42)<konijn_>so
(09:31:04)<konijn_>still not sure what specific registry you are talking about 
(09:31:05)<tametick>public static var KONG_MAXLEVEL:String     = "Deepest dungeon level"; //Define as MAX stat
(09:31:07)<mcfroogle>what is stored in haxegame.sol?
(09:31:07)<tametick>	public static var KONG_MAXGOLD:String      = "Most gold";             //Define as MAX stat
(09:31:08)<tametick>	
(09:31:10)<tametick>	public static var KONG_STARTFIGHTER:String = 'Start Fighter';         //Define as ADD stat
(09:31:12)<tametick>	public static var KONG_STARTTHIEF:String   = 'Start Thief';           //Define as ADD stat
(09:31:13)<tametick>	public static var KONG_STARTWIZARD:String  = 'Start Wizard';          //Define as ADD stat
(09:31:15)<tametick>	public static var KONG_FULLHEALAT1:String  = "Full heal at 1hp";      //Define as ADD stat ( I guess.. )
(09:31:15)<konijn_>yeah
(09:31:18)<konijn_>those are kong ones
(09:31:26)<tametick>konijn_: src/data/Registry.hx
(09:31:28)<konijn_>you must add them while you upload the swf
(09:31:40)<tametick>i am only talking about that. don't mind mcfroogle (no offense ;)
(09:31:44)<tametick>ok cool
(09:32:03)<tametick>mcfroogle: i have no idea what you're talking about 
(09:32:03)<mcfroogle>yeah thats alright lol is sort of in the middle of anuther convo
(09:32:09)<mcfroogle>fair enough lol
(09:32:19)<konijn_>mcfroogle , are you talking about save/load
(09:32:29)<konijn_>I was still prototyping
(09:32:38)<konijn_>so nothing of import gets saved
(09:32:44)<konijn_>I was trying to save the level data
(09:32:48)<konijn_>but got crap data back
(09:32:54)<konijn_>I must have been missing something
(09:32:56)<mcfroogle>fair enough
(09:33:13)<konijn_>so
(09:33:23)<konijn_>Cardinal Quest redraws the map like 4 times a second
(09:33:39)<konijn_>even when nothing is moving
(09:33:43)<konijn_>as i I just look at the screen
(09:33:49)<konijn_>that's gonna have to get fixed
(09:33:52)<tametick>yeah it's redrawing at 30fps
(09:33:54)<tametick>or trying to
(09:33:57)<konijn_>it will drain battery like there's no tomorrow
(09:34:14)<konijn_>what is the easiest way to know that I should not render
(09:34:23)<tametick>if no actor is moving
(09:34:40)<tametick>but most of the time the player is moving and therfor the whole map is moving
(09:34:47)<tametick>and the whole thing is redrawn 
(09:37:00)<konijn_>nah
(09:37:08)<konijn_>I mean, if you do nothing
(09:37:20)<konijn_>for 3 seconds than during those 3 seconds your whole map is drawn at least 10 times
(09:37:30)<konijn_>even if you tap once a second
(09:37:37)<konijn_>it will still draw one to three
(09:37:53)<konijn_>as in 2 useless refreshes per move
(09:37:56)<konijn_>'useless'
(09:38:08)<konijn_>some of these are necessary like for hitpoints going to the sky
(09:38:16)<konijn_>but the tiles would not have to be redrawn
(09:39:30)<mcfroogle>Sorry a bit random. but you should get involved with the humble indie bundle: humblebundle.com
(09:40:33)<randomnine>moving takes an average of 4ms... passing a turn takes an average of 10ms
(09:40:46)<randomnine>looks like the time's mostly going on level updates/AI
(09:41:58)<konijn_>just be sure, you mean in the render() of HXTileMap right
(09:42:55)<randomnine>sorry, i was looking at overall profiling
(09:43:12)<randomnine>3 fps o_O that's pretty crazy
(09:44:16)<randomnine>if that's how long rendering is taking, then sometimes moving must have to stall for, like, 3-5 seconds
(09:45:36)<konijn_>indeed
(09:45:47)<randomnine>oof, updating the field of view is pretty slow. let's have a look at that
(09:45:54)<konijn_>okay
(09:45:58)<konijn_>how do you know that ???
(09:46:00)<randomnine>seems to be the bulk of the time spent updating when you move
(09:46:04)<konijn_>give me the magicks !!!
(09:46:07)<randomnine>'cause i'm adding timers and seeing what they do heh
(09:46:13)<konijn_>oh lord
(09:46:29)<konijn_>+1 hardcore for randomnine
(09:46:30)<randomnine>check out HxlMonitor.hx, there are a few used in HxlGame/HxlConsole
(09:47:06)<konijn_>that's pretty cool
(09:48:02)<tametick>konijn_
(09:48:15)<tametick>KONG_STARTFIGHTER:String = 'Start Fighter';  
(09:48:23)<konijn_>yes
(09:48:29)<tametick>in kong do i define that stat as "Start Fighter"?
(09:48:33)<konijn_>indeed
(09:48:39)<tametick>not as KONG_STARTFIGHTER
(09:48:52)<konijn_>correct
(09:49:04)<konijn_>you would have rather had KONG_STARTFIGHTER ?
(09:49:07)<konijn_>there is still time Luke !!
(09:49:14)<konijn_>we can change it easily
(09:50:39)<tametick>no just wanted to make sure
(09:51:11)<randomnine>okay, it's doing raycasts to every point on the map every time you move
(09:51:20)<randomnine>that could take a while
(09:53:14)<randomnine>especially as that involves something like 10,000 allocations of HxlPoint objects just to represent the line to each point on the map
(09:53:23)<tametick><_<
(09:53:26)<tametick>yeah...
(09:53:37)<tametick>that was done by...someone
(09:53:41)<tametick>>_>
(09:53:48)<randomnine>hehe
(09:53:56)<randomnine>hey, it works
(09:54:04)<randomnine>just not fast enough, looks like
(09:55:30)<konijn_>[17:33] <konijn_> http://pastebin.com/ACiiduF2 [17:33] <konijn_> so it renders perfectly when I move or when a monster moves [17:33] <konijn_> but when I dont move, I see nothing again [17:33] <konijn_> somewhere something is clearing everything [17:34] <konijn_> anybody an idea where that would happen ? [17:34] <konijn_> that code would be in CqLevel "of course"
(09:59:02)<randomnine>at a guess, haxel is clearing the frame buffer at the start of every frame
(09:59:20)<randomnine>yup
(09:59:24)<randomnine>HxlState.preProcess()
(10:00:33)<randomnine>remove the call to screen.fill(), see what happens ^_^
(10:01:18)<randomnine>(shouldn't need to change much to fix it... maybe adding a black border around the tilemap)
(10:01:45)<konijn_>pretty psychedelic :P
(10:01:48)<konijn_>crap
(10:01:50)<konijn_>its late
(10:01:52)<konijn_>gotta go
(10:01:58)<konijn_>see you later
(10:03:15)<jday>The fov exhibits a few flaws as it is, anyway.  That'll be an easy fix once I've got my act together again.
(10:09:48)<tametick>phew 
(10:09:55)<tametick>kong submission complete
(10:09:58)<tametick>invoice submitted 
(10:10:27)<tametick>my bank account is relieved 
(10:10:49)<tametick>now  i can actually afford to pay income tax for last year 
(10:11:17)<tametick>was due by october 3rd, hope they don't mind a few weeks delay...
(10:22:04)<tametick>jday, randomnine, konijn: when you got a minute can you go through that "Tofu-Testing Results - Cardinal Quest v1.1c" email i forwarded you? it has really extensive testing results and he raises some good points. stuff we should probably discuss & perhaps change.
(10:22:26)<tametick>i'm heading to bed now, will be back in ~8 hours
(10:23:02)<jday>I did read that, yes.
(10:23:04)<tametick>also the  news.ycombinator link at the topic ^
(10:23:10)<tametick>ok cool
(10:23:11)<tametick>well
(10:23:24)<tametick>good night and talk to you tomorrow!
(10:23:41)<jday>I do think that keypress should do what tapping does.
(10:24:01)<jday>And yes, I read the ycombinator feedback, too.
(10:24:35)<jday>I don't think there's an item on the tofutesting list that I wasn't aware of, except for one that I find implausible (that left wouldn't move left but down would).
(10:25:14)<jday>And while we need to explain that space and enter both wait, they're wrong that there is "no way to wait" except 5.
(10:25:34)<jday>They missed a few real bugs, including a few that are pretty easy to recreate.
(10:26:39)<wl>Space, too? I only knew about Enter
(10:26:49)<wl>Maybe it really needs a short help on controls
(10:26:55)<jday>Still, if people are going to think things are wrong, we do need to clarify matters.  No use making people think these things are bugs.
(10:27:47)<jday>I found the game unplayable on keyboard before adding sliding, and I know I'm not alone -- and the game is meant to feel like an arcade game, so move on keypress only would be a step backward.  A bit of the feedback comes down to, "Be some other game."
(10:28:15)<jday>wl:  It does indeed. Tametick only added keyboard input under duress, after all.  The game is supposed to be played with the mouse.  Everything else is an afterthought.
(10:28:56)<wl>I think the current keyboard controls are fine
(10:29:14)<jday>It would be nice if tap-tap-tap would always move three times.
(10:34:11)<wl>Well, you could cache keypresses with another thread and execute them one after another at the right time
(10:38:02)<jday>Oh, we get the events just fine.  We simply suppress them if you're already moving.  Konijn, for the mobile versions, has made it so it always moves right away when you tap the screen.  The same principle can be applied to keypresses -- all motion presently in progress could be completed immediately.
(10:41:12)<randomnine>as a general rule, often, game systems/features might as well not exist unless players are explicitly taught them
(10:42:18)<randomnine>telling people that a key's there is just as important as actually implementing it - there's not much point doing one without the other
(10:43:46)<jday>Now, enter, at least, is pointed out.  And yes, it amazes me how stupendously passive some players can be.
(10:44:39)<randomnine>well, it takes a certain mindset to try every key to see what happens :p generally a technical one
(10:45:31)<jday>And yet these same testers discovered that 5 waits and that hjkl move.
(10:45:42)<randomnine>hehe
(10:45:57)<jday>I suspect that we need to give feedback on waiting -- that will be just as important.  It's not clear whether you have passed a turn, and I still haven't fixed that.
(10:46:14)<randomnine>i'm happy with the keyboard setup, but it does need documenting. and i might make sliding a bit smarter
(10:47:02)<randomnine>eg. if you run into a wall, it'll look to see whether you'd be able to continue if you moved left or right a couple squares, and if so, go to the nearest. and if not, just stay there
(10:47:40)<jday>It does exactly that.
(10:48:15)<jday>It also refuses to move backwards if you previously explicitly pressed a perpendicular direction -- e.g., right and then down to slide will only ever move you right.
(10:48:41)<randomnine>ah. that's what confused me, then.
(10:49:04)<jday>And I assure you that it's better than not testing for that.  I can see how it would be easy to assume that that was all it was doing.
(10:49:42)<randomnine>that's exciting... next to a door
(10:49:45)<randomnine> @ 
(10:49:47)<randomnine>-+-
(10:49:58)<jday>(Indeed, that's what the tofu testing folks assumed -- without, apparently, actually checking.  Most of the time it just does the right thing, so it seems pretty good.)
(10:50:07)<randomnine>press left, down, down, down, down, down...
(10:50:17)<randomnine>character moves left, left, right, right, down, down
(10:50:37)<jday>randomnine: It stops moving left when it hits a wall, I presume?
(10:50:42)<randomnine>nope
(10:51:04)<randomnine>there's another square to the left before it hits a wall
(10:51:32)<jday>I'll take a look at that.  It's clear enough what made that start happening, though.  See, the test that keeps you from doubling back is relatively recent.
(10:52:03)<randomnine>ok
(10:52:12)<jday>Then again, no, it's not clear to me.  It should refuse to move you to the left on a slide if there's no opening.
(10:52:12)<randomnine>the situation is, it doubles back one space before it hits a wall
(10:52:28)<randomnine>similar situation:
(10:52:34)<jday>Ok, that's legitimately a bug.
(10:52:40)<randomnine>@...#
(10:52:44)<randomnine>.####
(10:52:49)<randomnine>right down down down down down
(10:52:56)<randomnine>moves: right, right, left, left, down, down
(10:53:18)<randomnine>so it continues sliding in the previous direction for 1 move before turning round to head for the opening.
(10:53:47)<jday>And it should go: right, left, down, down.  I'm not sure exactly what's keeping it from catching that a wall is coming, but it'll be easy enough to find.
(10:53:59)<randomnine>cool :)
(10:54:45)<randomnine>another situation, five spaces to the side of the door before the wall... it slides in the wrong direction twice
(10:54:48)<randomnine>turns round with 2 spaces to go
(10:55:05)<jday>The sequence of changes was this: First, intelligent wall sliding, but with no backtrack protection.  Second, absolute backtrack protection -- which often felt wrong (in the previous example, it would go right and then just -- not respond).  Third, relative backtrack protection, which only triggers if the previous direction is still valid.
(10:55:05)<konijn_>back to the land of CQ
(10:55:38)<jday>So in this arrangement:
(10:55:42)<jday>@....
(10:55:46)<jday>.###.
(10:56:05)<jday>right down down down down should make you move right right right right down.
(10:56:08)<randomnine>yeah, that works fine
(10:56:44)<randomnine>it looks like the character will slide about halfway along a wall before realising it should turn back
(10:57:01)<jday>Yep.  In the first version of sliding, it would backtrack -- right left down down down.  In the second, it would stall -- right [no more movement].
(10:57:30)<jday>randomnine: Looks like it's not checking correctly whether it has somewhere to go when it gets there!  I bet I refactored that wrong.
(10:57:37)<jday>And that the new addition covered for it.
(10:57:57)<randomnine>yup. it's turning back when the wall is as close or closer than the exit it should turn round for.
(10:58:38)<randomnine>that's the best rule i can come up with
(10:59:39)<randomnine>that's the bug that made me think it was being daft then :D
(10:59:56)<randomnine>as with a gap 2 spaces to the side of a door, it could run all the way to the wall before turning round
(11:04:00)<jday>I see what it's doing wrong, now.  It's not quite what I thought.  When I added relative backtrack protection, I had to move the backtrack check to after (from before) the distance check.
(11:04:50)<jday>But the way the distance check works is this: It looks right and left until it finds somewhere for one of them to go forward, and then it stops.  If one of them hits a wall, it marks that one as impassible.
(11:05:26)<jday>But since it will have stopped when one could go forward, if that one was a backtrack the backtrack logic will cancel it and cause you to walk down the other way -- since it didn't actually run all the way to a wall.
(11:05:27)<jday>Easy fix.
(11:06:06)<jday>And now that I've unbroken my build (I was foolishly editing the ui/inventory/ files instead of just starting my own batch as a complete rewrite), I can actually start making easy fixes again.
(11:07:50)<randomnine>hehe
(11:08:45)<randomnine>i think i've figured out how to rewrite the line-of-sight calcs for a factor of 10 speedup, at least. something for tomorrow though i think
(11:11:13)<jday>Sure, if you want to do that.  It wouldn't be too hard just to plug together a more complete fov implementation -- how long will your change take you?
(11:14:15)<jday>And spell effects are now instantaneous instead of next turn?
(11:16:38)<jday>And now I have to fight Kdiff.  Nothing in this interface makes any sense at all.
(11:17:55)<randomnine>yep, mechanical spell effects are now instantaneous, visual effects are as previous, fireball's a bit weird 'cause it's a bit of both.
(11:18:23)<randomnine>rewriting the fov thing will take me, i dunno, an hour or two
(11:18:58)<randomnine>then we can find out where *else* is eating cpu and fix that ^_^
(11:19:29)<randomnine>but honestly, i think that's at least half the cpu time involved in every move.
(11:19:55)<randomnine>and now, i'm off to bed. 'night!
(11:20:39)<jday>I've pushed the sliding changes.
(11:21:03)<jday>And I kept touching the ranged attack code and having mixed feelings what to do about it -- I presume that's what ghosts are for now?
(11:21:11)<jday>It's a good solution, if so.
(11:21:48)<jday>The game is much faster now, aside from being smoother -- was it not on a timer at all?  Or has the timing been changed intentionally?
(11:25:22)<jday>Or maybe the speed issues have just been so significant on my little netbook that the game always seemed pointlessly slow.
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/19 +++
(06:09:17)<tametick>http://www.kongregate.com/games/idoyehi/cardinal-quest
(06:21:47)<tametick>new bug:\
(06:21:57)<tametick>click a spell while the inventory is closing 
(06:22:10)<tametick>that spell is gone and you can bring back the inventory screen, or any other screen
(06:23:19)<jday>Unless I totally fail at my rewrite (which is possible if I never find time when I don't feel crummy) that'll be gone soon.
(06:27:46)<tametick>jday: there is an even bigger problem where the map doesn't follow the player
(06:27:51)<tametick>might be only in flash player 11
(06:31:53)<jday>I saw that comment.  I can't think how that could happen; there's really no provision in the code for a player to be moving and not to be the center.
(06:32:03)<jday>But now that my build is no longer broken, I'll take a look and see.
(06:38:24)<tametick>thanks
(06:38:28)<tametick>it never happens to me either
(06:38:34)<tametick>but more than 1 player reported it
(06:38:38)<tametick>might be the latest flash
(06:38:43)<tametick>or might be the web version
(06:38:51)<tametick>you can test it in kongHaxe
(06:39:15)<tametick>you need to execute "haxe build.xml" in that directory to build it
(06:39:38)<tametick>it copies the cq.swf file from ../bin so you have to have FD open twice on both
(06:47:46)<tametick>oh you weren;t even here
(06:48:25)<tametick>jday: http://i.imgur.com/xPCSg.png
(10:10:27)<tametick>jday: i'm going to do a quick announcement of classic vs. deluxe and then say to expect a post from your after the future of cq coming in soon
(10:10:51)<tametick>*a post from you of
(10:39:37)<randomnine>i kinda rewrote the field of view system and now vision round corners is anti-aliased. plus it's about three times as fast
(10:40:37)<randomnine>think i'm gonna rewrite pathfinding next, A* searches seem to be taking a while
(10:41:09)<randomnine>and if a creature's line-of-sight visible, odds are it can just walk towards you
(10:42:55)<wl>Currently you can see through "diagonal walls", but can't walk there
(10:44:31)<tametick>randomnine: groovy 
(10:44:43)<tametick>it used to just walk in a line to you until jday rewrote that part
(10:46:41)<tametick>randomnine: i think that the way a* works is that it takes more time the less direct the way is, so if there is a direct line to the destination a* should be pretty fast
(10:46:51)<tametick>but that's just a theory, might not be that way in practice 
(10:55:51)<randomnine>i know how a* works, but when a monster's seen you and it moves it looks like it's taking 10+ms sometimes which is unacceptable
(11:00:25)<tametick>ok cool
(12:05:40)<randomnine>field of view update is pushed
(12:06:30)<wl>Is there a standalone version to test?
(12:12:34)<randomnine>of the fov stuff?
(12:12:52)<wl>General new version
(12:12:56)<tametick>randomnine: i normally gave player an exe created by the debug projector on dropbox
(12:13:18)<tametick>it takes seconds to update and they can test your latest changes
(12:13:43)<tametick>and if you compile it in debug mode in FD they can also give you stack traces 
(12:16:02)<randomnine>cool
(12:16:16)<randomnine>how do i do that? debug projector, etc
(12:16:28)<tametick>when you press f5 in FD
(12:16:38)<tametick>it runs it in the debug projector
(12:16:58)<tametick>then in the file menu i think it has an export function that exports an exe file
(12:17:05)<randomnine>ooo.
(12:17:12)<tametick>in the menu of the flash projector that is
(12:17:34)<tametick>i just exported to my Public folder in dropbox, overriding old versions
(12:17:39)<tametick>so the link remains the same for players
(12:19:46)<randomnine>ok, i'll upload a dev snapshot
(12:20:49)<randomnine>might be a bit wobbly as it's had some major changes with not much testing
(12:22:14)<tametick>that's what testers are for ;)
(12:22:18)<randomnine>http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-dev-20111019-1300.exe
(12:22:22)<randomnine>:D
(12:22:41)<randomnine>now to get to work on this pathfinding - the a* implementation is creating its own copy of the entire map every time a query's run, which is mental
(12:23:10)<randomnine>it'll probably be much quicker if i just fix that
(12:23:55)<Joist>what's happening? Something interesting?
(12:24:42)<randomnine>hehe, just performance stuff
(12:28:22)<Joist>this exe version feels a bit choppy
(12:29:01)<tametick>Joist: debug mode is about half the speed of release mode
(12:29:16)<randomnine>yup, it's taking an average of 17.5ms to build the map to run the a* search on
(12:29:20)<randomnine>and 0ms to run the a* search
(12:29:37)<Joist>ha
(12:29:41)<randomnine>this'll be why combat bogs down, even when a monster is 1 tile away from you it'll still a* to your location
(12:30:14)<Joist>can you try a fov test beforehand
(12:30:20)<Joist>if the mob can see you go with that
(12:30:37)<randomnine>well, once this is fixed that might not be necessary
(12:30:57)<randomnine>i'll just embed all the data for A* in the normal structures... we only run one search at a time anyway
(12:31:03)<wl>Okay, the overall performance of this release is okay, it feels like it is even, every turn taking roughly the same, in earlier version different turns took very different times. But having several monsters on screen feels way slower than before.
(12:31:34)<randomnine>cool, i'm working on that now
(12:31:57)<wl>Currently having 6 monsters for testing and every turn takes probably 200-300 ms
(12:32:40)<randomnine>yeah, i'd guess at 100ms or more on my machine. gimme a few hours :)
(12:32:56)<wl>Yeah, I'm using a slow notebook :)
(12:33:41)<Joist>is there any way to check? wait do you have the flxconsole in the haxe version?
(12:33:44)<wl>Also: Going down the stairs makes all messages currently showing on the screen permanent
(12:34:01)<randomnine>oop. that's nasty.
(12:34:13)<randomnine>joist: yeah, but it's disabled i think
(12:34:28)<Joist>ah, well  you could use haxe traces
(12:35:01)<Joist>you probably know that, but I was thinking more along the lines of, tilde toggles the traces being visible
(12:35:25)<wl>Oh and the fog lookes very nice and fluent now
(12:35:51)<randomnine>^_^
(12:36:09)<k00pa>hi everybody!
(12:36:11)<tametick>sup k00pa 
(12:36:15)<k00pa>CARNIVAL QUEST!
(12:36:36)<k00pa>sooo do I need any tools to mod it?
(12:36:42)<Joist>oh no it's that koopa guy
(12:36:44)<tametick>a text editor
(12:36:52)<k00pa>anything else?
(12:36:56)<tametick>a computer
(12:36:56)<wl>A keyboard
(12:37:16)<k00pa>mouse?
(12:37:28)<wl>I think you can manage without
(12:37:34)<k00pa>so I don't need any flash bs?
(12:37:52)<k00pa>or compilers?
(12:39:17)<Joist>k00pa: the game just reads in values from a text file
(12:39:21)<Joist>so you just need a text editor
(12:40:09)<k00pa>soo I can fix the bad movement with just a texteditor?
(12:43:36)<tametick>there's only so much you can change. randomnine can hook you up. btw talking of which i guess it would be better to also pack in the text files for that reason?
(12:46:44)<tametick>you can see the log from a few lines before you joined k00pa 
(12:46:52)<tametick>it mentions the link to the testing version
(12:46:53)<k00pa>o/
(12:46:59)<k00pa>awesome
(12:47:06)<k00pa>will look it later today if I remember
(12:50:41)<Joist>I will never get tired of double shadow walk
(12:51:20)<randomnine>tametick: yeah, good call
(12:53:21)<randomnine>i'll just upload the text files as a separate zip for now and package them with the next one
(12:54:08)<randomnine>http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-dev-20111019-1300-statsFiles.zip
(12:55:00)<randomnine>extract to same folder as the .exe and you can define new items, mess with class and monster stats, change starting gear, etc
(01:04:06)<Joist>did you know all the diablo 2 mob classes were defined through massive excel spreadsheets
(01:04:18)<Joist>every behaviour type, and summoning other mobs and whatnot
(01:04:20)<Joist>they were huge
(01:05:25)<Joist>why is the red spider a black widow? shouldn't it be a redback?
(01:09:06)<tametick>i guess not much thought was given to that 
(01:24:26)<randomnine>ok, a* searches on my machine are now down from an average of 17ms to an average of 0.1ms
(01:26:12)<randomnine>^_^
(01:26:36)<randomnine>that's probably the last big slow thing we can hit, so performance will get tricksier from here on out
(01:28:37)<Joist>randomnine: what did you do to solve the problem? I'll be implementing a* soon and want to avoid some issues
(01:29:28)<randomnine>two things... one, i keep the graph in memory rather than building it every time i want to do a search
(01:29:48)<randomnine>and two, i lazily initialise nodes in the graph as the search reaches them
(01:30:04)<randomnine>rather than initialising all nodes at the start of each search
(01:30:18)<Joist>ok, thanks :)
(01:31:18)<randomnine>this only works if you restrict yourself to doing one A* search at any given time, but that won't generally be a problem except in really serious asynchronous pathfinding systems
(01:32:32)<randomnine>1 is easy, 2 is the slightly involved part... each node has the cost of traversal/etc updated when it changes, so you don't need to read if a node is traversible during the search, you just go for it
(01:32:46)<randomnine>and each node has a 'searchIndex' field
(01:32:53)<randomnine>every new search is assigned a unique index
(01:33:03)<randomnine>when the search encounters a node, if the index is different, it initialises that node first
(01:33:16)<konijn_>olla !!
(01:33:22)<randomnine>heyo!
(01:33:32)<randomnine>got some performance changes for you
(01:33:39)<Joist>hey
(01:34:32)<randomnine>just pushed the a* changes, i'll pack up a build for testing now
(01:35:54)<randomnine>konijn_: from what you've said about ios performance it's still going to be a dog, but with these field of view and a* optimisations moving should be a fair bit quicker
(01:36:33)<Joist>could you do the a* the frame after moving has been done?
(01:37:06)<Joist>nm ignore :)
(01:37:34)<konijn_>kay
(01:37:38)<konijn_>very good !
(01:37:44)<konijn_>and thanks !!
(01:38:19)<randomnine>np, hope it's enough for now
(01:40:07)<randomnine>wl: http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-dev-20111019-1420.zip - monsters shouldn't slow things down now
(01:40:17)<randomnine>er... haha. nm, it's still uploading
(01:40:31)<wl>yeah
(01:40:34)<wl>404 ;)
(01:43:34)<randomnine>done!
(01:45:55)<wl>10 enemies on screen, no slowdown
(01:47:11)<tametick>you know it's super easy to use dropbox for that kind of stuff randomnine 
(01:47:39)<tametick>you mostly just export the exe to the public folder, and dropbox is pretty smart about uploading diffs
(01:47:48)<tametick>so it uploaded updates like those pretty quickly
(01:48:17)<tametick>*uploads
(01:48:17)<randomnine>ah, but i have a server. ...and i fear change
(01:48:23)<tametick>hehe
(01:48:23)<randomnine>>_>
(01:48:34)<tametick>suits yourself :)
(01:48:44)<wl>ftp upload is no difference if your file manager has an included client
(01:48:57)<tametick>i also have a server, but can't beat the comfort & speed of dropbox
(01:49:11)<tametick>wl: ftp clients don't copy by diffs
(01:49:16)<tametick>they just copy the whole thing
(01:49:37)<tametick>but whatever i'm not trying to spread any propaganda here
(01:49:38)<wl>Yes, but with exucutables/packs it's not like there is that much you can speed up
(01:49:50)<wl>And with few mb stuff...
(01:50:13)<tametick>from casual experience it uploaded 8-9mb stuff really quickly when it's just a different exe
(01:50:25)<tametick>like a couple of seconds 
(01:50:33)<tametick>but anyway 
(01:50:38)<wl>That gives me no information without your internet speed :P
(01:50:39)<tametick>not trying to convert anyone
(01:50:44)<wl>I can do that without diff ;)
(01:50:54)<tametick>wl: it uploads at maybe 100-200kb/sec
(01:51:06)<tametick>downloads can be 1-2mb/sex
(01:51:17)<tametick>*sec
(01:57:01)<Joist>randomnine: dropbox++
(01:57:46)<Joist>the free version is great for being free, 2gb, 60-100k upload for me, 400k maybe down, + it keeps all versions of your files for 30 days
(01:58:07)<Joist>so if you overwrite something with a corrupt version or delete it you can restore it
(02:19:23)<tametick>http://twitter.com/tametick/status/126658714332696576
(02:21:08)<randomnine>ace :)
(02:29:14)<konijn_>dropbox++
(05:35:41)<konijn_>back
(05:35:48)<konijn_>i was in a ... meeting !
(05:35:56)<konijn_>one step closer to get a big project approved
(05:36:00)<konijn_>go konijn!
(05:36:04)<konijn_>how are things in cq land ?
(05:55:34)<tametick>\o/
(05:55:43)<tametick>seems pretty solid from the sideline konijn_ 
(06:07:29)<Lohen>hello
(06:07:43)<tametick>sup
(06:07:56)<tametick>check out the log in the topic
(06:08:04)<Lohen>roger that
(06:08:07)<tametick>in it you will find a link randomnine posted for the debug build
(06:08:13)<Lohen>I should probably beat CQ at some point too
(06:09:00)<tametick>you can start by playing the debug build a while and paying attention to difficulty levels throughout your progression in floors with different classes and equipment 
(06:09:04)<tametick>and write down some notes
(06:09:10)<Lohen>sure thing
(06:09:31)<tametick>and after a while of that you can play with the values of everything and see if you can find a better balance 
(06:09:43)<Lohen>also I did download Stencyl like you recommended, it seems interesting, but I'm getting married this Saturday and last Saturday I spent literally all day on schoolwork ;o
(06:09:57)<tametick>right now the game becomes pretty insanely difficult at the minotauers (floor 8) and might be too easy before that 
(06:10:07)<Lohen>Roger that
(06:10:09)<tametick>congratulations!
(06:10:21)<Lohen>I think my initial difficulties were with the mouse click to attack not attacking bug
(06:10:30)<Lohen>and the starting zones got easy after that was resolved
(06:10:40)<Lohen>but I'll go try it again
(06:10:41)<tametick>cool
(06:10:46)<tametick>you can also hunt bugs
(06:10:57)<tametick>look at the 1st link in the topic to see what we already know of
(06:11:54)<Lohen>thanks
(06:15:48)<Joist>tametick: mobs fight back even when they are asleep. Bug?
(06:16:30)<jday>randomnine: Seriously?  The A* implementation in there was allocating all nodes at the start of a search?  Who does that?
(06:16:48)<tametick>Joist: they shouldn't 
(06:16:51)<tametick>so it might be
(06:19:42)<jday>Any idea about the people who try to run the game but then get nothing?
(06:20:39)<randomnine>jday: i know, right :D
(06:20:55)<tametick>jday: yeah, it's the preloader
(06:21:15)<tametick>it sometime finished downloading before the ad network initialized  
(06:21:29)<tametick>so there are a couple of seconds before you see that ad
(06:21:41)<tametick>but it only happens rarely and if they wait like 2 seconds it shows up
(06:23:45)<jday>And yet those are the highest rated comments?
(06:25:51)<tametick>they are?
(06:26:13)<Lohen>jday link?
(06:26:13)<tametick>oh
(06:26:15)<tametick>they are new
(06:26:40)<jday>Lohen: http://www.kongregate.com/games/idoyehi/cardinal-quest
(06:27:15)<jday>Quite a lot of points on them -- (23) (15) (11) (16).
(06:27:29)<Lohen>The Kong version is the demo?
(06:27:36)<tametick>no
(06:27:41)<tametick>it's CQ Classic
(06:27:47)<tametick>i'll try with firefox 7 then
(06:28:03)<jday>I love this one: "Me thinks this game is awesome, but me keep dying at floor 2. wish there was some way to not have to use potions and stuff all the time."  Hmm, yes.  I wonder if there's a way to play better.
(06:29:34)<randomnine>tbh the fighter should faceroll through to level 3 or so just so people can definitely get into the game
(06:30:27)<wl>Works fine with ff7
(06:30:37)<jday>randomnine: Agreed.  The challenge was that with the numbers so small and with the fighter's only advantage being vitality -- well, that's the one stat that makes everything easier since it actually scales with level.
(06:30:54)<jday>Still, he should just have 1 more point of vitality.  That's an easy fix, and it'll help him through the whole game.
(06:31:02)<randomnine>mm. i'm probably going to break out stats per level for the classes
(06:31:29)<randomnine>trying not to get distracted by interesting design problems when there're still bugs and such on teh table :D
(06:31:54)<jday>Unlike me, that.
(06:32:11)<randomnine>*the
(06:34:04)<randomnine>i'm actually just playing the game at the moment. i still haven't finished it even
(06:39:18)<Lohen>;o
(06:39:21)<Lohen>found a bug in the Kon version
(06:39:33)<Lohen>I'm trying to place a spell in my 4th spell slot and it won't let me
(06:39:40)<Lohen>I pulled the existing one out and put it in my inventory
(06:40:29)<Lohen>I try to drag the new spell (Stone Skin) into the 4th empty slot and it won't equip
(06:40:40)<randomnine>jday: you're rewriting the UI, right?
(06:42:07)<randomnine>Lohen: thanks, good spot... take it that was the first time you'd moved spells around in that game?
(06:42:25)<Lohen>well no, I was able to move a spell into the 2nd slot
(06:42:30)<Lohen>same thing, I dragged a spell out of it
(06:42:36)<Lohen>then dragged Fireball into it
(06:42:38)<randomnine>cool
(06:42:52)<Lohen>and by 2nd I mean 2nd from the top
(06:44:43)<tametick>jday: seems they have gone down the list in the meanwhile
(06:44:54)<tametick>can't really tell what the issue is, suspecting network issues 
(06:45:34)<Lohen>another bug spotted
(06:45:40)<Lohen>I picked up a helmet with +4 life on it
(06:45:48)<Lohen>it autoequipped over my +2 life helmet
(06:46:02)<Lohen>but it did not autosell the +2 helmet
(06:46:14)<Lohen>I thought it was supposed to autosell any time the upgrade was obviously superior
(06:46:17)<tametick>ah, might be the ad blocker?
(06:46:42)<tametick>yep
(06:46:42)<randomnine>Lohen: cool, logged it
(06:46:58)<Lohen>"Full Helmet of Vitality"
(06:47:08)<Lohen>did not autosell the "Superb Cap of Endurance"
(06:47:12)<Lohen>it did auto-equip though
(06:47:54)<randomnine>huh. Superbness may be what foxed it
(06:49:32)<tametick>jday: ad blocker + blocks kongregate's ad network
(06:50:03)<tametick>i suspect making it stop the loader is intentional and there isn't really anything we can do since we just call external code
(06:50:40)<Lohen>another bug
(06:51:37)<Lohen>when I click an item in my inventory to move it, while mousing over another item in my inventory it shows the item name for both items in the same area under my cursor, rendering them both unreadable
(06:51:47)<Lohen>I mean click and dragging an item to move it
(06:53:59)<Lohen>does it with spells or items
(06:56:56)<Lohen>a little extra info on the spell bug: I picked up Bless Weapon and it did not autopopulate the spell slot either
(06:57:31)<Lohen>the 4th slot is acting like it is filled, but it isn't, and I tried clicking the empty space to drag the "nothing" out, but I can't
(06:58:55)<mcfroogle>Alright people
(07:08:52)<randomnine>lohen: logged all that. good stuff
(07:10:44)<tametick>randomnine: if you're not in the middle of something can you look into a bug for me quick? should be a pretty simple one
(07:12:04)<Lohen>holy fuck
(07:12:20)<Lohen>I just got 1 shot by the minotaur with Berserk and Magic Shield up
(07:12:25)<Lohen>as a Fighter 
(07:12:41)<Lohen>I was at 1/2 hp, almost killed him before he hit me, he got 1 hit and killed me
(07:12:55)<Lohen>I got back up (it was my first death), recast my spells
(07:13:03)<Lohen>walked up to him with full hp and he one shot me again
(07:13:46)<Lohen>and I agree about the difficulty curves, floors 1-6 are pretty easy, it only got hard at floor 7-8 with the fireball casting ghost things
(07:13:58)<Lohen>and only then because it was unmitigatable
(07:14:07)<Lohen>every time one shows up you WILL lose 1/4 your hp
(07:14:09)<Lohen>guaranteed
(07:21:19)<Lohen>now I wouldn't consider this unfair, except that up to that point all I ever had to do was bash the face of anything I saw until it died
(07:21:41)<Lohen>I had to use a potion / heal spell towards the last few levels
(07:32:09)<Lohen>Anyways I can tell you right now, the boss should not be allowed to 1 shot a full HP Warrior that fully explored the world for every treasure chest and xp source, that is just unfair
(07:32:31)<Lohen>that is literally unwinnable unless the boss just happens to miss every attack
(07:32:56)<tametick>people won it
(07:33:06)<Lohen>then the boss must have missed them every attack
(07:33:14)<tametick>don't think so ;)
(07:33:22)<Lohen>which is unlikely, but I did get him down to 1/10 of his hp bar before he killed me in one shot
(07:33:59)<Lohen>I'm not making this up, he hit me from full hp to empty in one succesful attack, how can you justify that?
(07:36:05)<tametick>i don't know but people won the game
(07:36:13)<tametick>so it must be winnable 
(07:36:25)<tametick>wl won many time iirc 
(07:37:08)<Lohen>Well is he designed to do 9999 dmg when he hits or can he hit for less than your max HP ?
(07:37:33)<Lohen>because maybe I'm just very unlucky and he just got a perfect roll that was the most dmg he can possibly do in one attack
(07:37:41)<Lohen>and it was enough to kill me
(07:37:42)<Joist>I win more than I lose these days
(07:38:07)<Joist>want tips?
(07:38:09)<Lohen>How many times has the Minotaur hit you and it didn't do your entire life bar?
(07:38:26)<Joist>once I survived a minotaur hit, the trick is not to get hit
(07:38:41)<Joist>sleep is a good start
(07:38:46)<Lohen>You're a "warrior", it is counterintuitive to expect to never get hit
(07:38:57)<Lohen>You're supposed to be tough enough to get hit and live
(07:39:02)<Joist>I know, but you can't win just by bashing his skull in
(07:39:13)<Joist>I know how it should be, but I also know how it is :)
(07:39:26)<Lohen>Well what if you didn't find the Sleep spell? I didn't
(07:39:35)<Lohen>I buffed up and he still killed me in one attack
(07:39:37)<Joist>shadow walk works well
(07:39:42)<Lohen>I don't think I had that either
(07:39:45)<Joist>freeze the minotaur and buff your speed
(07:39:53)<Lohen>I wasn't super focused on spells though, I was a Warrior
(07:39:57)<Joist>keep fireball on hand for this situation
(07:40:06)<Lohen>So you can kite him?
(07:40:10)<Joist>yup
(07:40:14)<Joist>magic mirror
(07:40:17)<Lohen>May as well just play a Mage then
(07:40:26)<Joist>I know
(07:40:34)<Lohen>So it sounds like your solution to my problem is "We know and we don't care"
(07:40:46)<Joist>I'm not a dev on the game
(07:40:51)<Lohen>:)
(07:40:59)<Joist>I'm just a player :)
(07:41:30)<Joist>o shit, forgot the big one
(07:41:39)<Joist>kit minotaurs and hit them with polymorph
(07:41:45)<Joist>no more minotaur :)
(07:42:08)<Lohen>There is a reason people stopped using the AD&D Armor Class system in most RPGs :/
(07:42:21)<Lohen>It is really unpredictable and hard to design encounters around
(07:43:04)<Joist>the fact is as long as there are spells you should be using them. Otherwise you are just throwing away options in battle
(07:43:19)<Lohen>well I used 3 spells, Berserk, Magic Shield, and Blessed Weapon
(07:43:32)<Joist>none of the tactical ones?
(07:43:40)<Joist>I would recommend them more
(07:43:42)<Lohen>I thought, [Hey I'm a Warrior, I bet if I buff myself with close combat buffs, I can win a straight up slugfest]
(07:44:06)<Lohen>Every game I've ever played has taught me that lesson
(07:44:07)<Joist>if that was the case the game wouldn't be very interesting then hey
(07:44:29)<Lohen>Well most games give you more tactical combat options than "bump into the enemy with your head until it dies"
(07:44:30)<Joist>here's what I used to get through a no-heal run with the fighter - http://i.imgur.com/TCxvD.jpg
(07:44:47)<Joist>heh
(07:45:00)<Joist>sounds complicated :)
(07:45:36)<Lohen>I mean that isn't true of most roguelikes, but I was drawing on standards established by gaming on the whole
(07:46:09)<Lohen>though that is pretty true in Crawl, if you buffed yourself with RMsl and Haste you could pretty much walk through anything
(07:46:42)<Lohen>they've taken steps to rectify that ;_;
(07:47:13)<Lohen>I guess the point is, even if there are ways to get around this, it is counterintuitive
(07:47:33)<Lohen>The problem is not that the game is unwinnable, so much as you can't win like you would expect to be able to
(07:47:34)<Joist>I think the fighter is the hardest character in this game, his really shitty spirit means you can't rebuff before every battle, and you have to use tactical spells sparingly
(07:48:09)<Lohen>So now I know for every future playthrough that I can't melee the minotaur to death
(07:48:17)<Lohen>it is too risky
(07:48:24)<Lohen>even as the most melee oriented class
(07:48:32)<Lohen>feels cheap :/
(07:48:59)<Joist>stealthing up to him with the thief is usually fine
(07:49:15)<Lohen>I didn't try Thief yet, that is my first time getting to level 8
(07:49:21)<Joist>but be ready with a tactical spell after, fear/sleep/charm etc
(07:51:13)<jday>I think we really should just remove levels.  Tametick has talked a few times about wanting to.
(07:51:18)<jday>Heal on level up, yes.  But nothing else.
(07:51:30)<Lohen>floor 8 I mean
(07:51:40)<jday>Then we could actually look at relative difficulty levels.
(07:51:52)<Joist>jday: no healing except for level ups?
(07:51:56)<jday>And we could try to make the fighter into a guy that can actually fight minotaurs -- which he should be able to do.
(07:52:20)<jday>Joist: Oh, man.  That would be brilliant in its way -- it's not what I meant, but it would be bold.
(07:52:37)<Joist>Please add that as a mode
(07:52:47)<jday>But there'd be no stat change on level up, and yes, I think I probably will.
(07:52:51)<tametick>anyone here on firefox with ad block?
(07:53:16)<tametick>my internet connection is so flaky i can't play cq on kongregate before timing out :|
(07:53:24)<tametick>i think i fixed it but need confirmation 
(07:54:05)<Joist>tametick: confirmation of what?
(07:54:23)<Joist>I can install adblock if you want
(07:54:40)<jday>Joist: Fixed a problem that kept people from playing without adblock, and that they complained heavily about.
(07:54:58)<Joist>without or with?
(07:55:08)<tametick>with
(07:55:42)<Joist>link?
(07:55:48)<jday>"without turning off", I meant and didn't say.
(07:55:55)<Joist>link to test?
(07:57:28)<Lohen>umm I have adblock and it is fucking up a few dif websites, not just your game
(07:57:39)<Lohen>Firefox 7 is the problem imo, not CQ
(07:57:46)<Lohen>FF + AdBlock I mean
(07:58:42)<Lohen>The first time I ran the Kong link in Firefox it spat me an error and I had to click out of a box, but it worked (with adBlocker on)
(07:58:50)<Lohen>I reloaded the page after disabling Ad Blocker and it worked no problem
(08:02:34)<tametick>Lohen: http://www.kongregate.com/games/idoyehi/cardinal-quest
(08:02:46)<tametick>you need to clear flash cache
(08:02:56)<tametick>but it was already confirmed to work with ad block active
(08:02:59)<tametick>so we're clear
(08:03:06)<tametick>damn so many possible bugs
(08:03:14)<tametick>no matter how much you test
(08:04:13)<Lohen>I can tell you AdBlock in version 7.0.1 of Firefox screws up Penny Arcade's videos for me
(08:04:23)<Lohen>so it is a larger problem those people are having than just your game
(08:05:42)<tametick>well now they aren't having it with cq :)
(08:55:16)<tametick>jday: no most comments are complaining about the spell swap bug
(08:55:20)<tametick>*now
(08:55:32)<jday>Hooray!
(08:55:40)<jday>And I'm almost Not Sick today!
(08:55:51)<tametick>score is slowly going up now that the ad blocker bug was fixed
(08:55:57)<tametick>what did you have?
(08:56:06)<tametick>my gf was sick for the past 4-5 days too
(08:56:25)<tametick>but somehow my manly immune system is holding on 
(08:57:39)<jday>Sinus pressure.  I was mentally fuzzy at my best and in pain at my worst, but still trying to get things done.  (Foolish, that.)
(08:58:21)<Lohen>How long was CQ up on Kong?
(09:01:00)<tametick>will be 1 day in a couple hours
(09:04:40)<jday>"What piece of nasty code did you put in, that an ad blocker blocks it" -- edit your response to that to say that you only included the standard Kongregate code, and you can specify what went wrong, if you need to.
(09:04:50)<jday>But that's the kind of challenge you should probably answer.
(09:06:40)<tametick>done
(10:03:23)<Lohen>tametick I think it would be a good idea to create special attacks for Fighters that are like spells, but scale with your weapon and Strength, and have short cooldowns, or cooldowns that are lowered by Strength
(10:03:51)<Lohen>Another idea jday liked, was that you could even have follow-up spells / attacks
(10:04:17)<Lohen>like a "Dusk Slash" that enabled the ability "Crescent Slash" which was even more powerful
(10:04:20)<tametick>we have an idea already for ranged weapons which are basically spells whose cooldown is determined by attack and not spirit
(10:04:22)<Lohen>but required that setup round
(10:04:44)<Lohen>well that is good, but how are you going to make Fighters distinct from Mages?
(10:04:45)<tametick>you can add that last one into the things to consdier list in that google doc
(10:05:58)<Lohen>also I think it would be good if there was an AoE dmg spell for Mages only that did a 3x3 area ;o
(10:06:12)<Lohen>they're not very Magey with only 1 attack spell that even a Fighter can master
(10:06:16)<tametick>hrm
(10:06:29)<tametick>need to consider it
(10:06:35)<Lohen>a lot of my talking with jday today was about how the classes do not feel distinct
(10:06:56)<tametick>one idea was to bias the spell generator to the player's class
(10:07:04)<Lohen>and that is not a bad idea, he mentioned it
(10:07:13)<Lohen>but, how does that make the player feel like they're playing differently?
(10:07:26)<Lohen>it is a behind the scenes change that the player won't notice until many plays
(10:07:42)<tametick>they would play differently because they get different spells
(10:07:47)<tametick>i think they will
(10:07:54)<tametick>it won't be a tiny bias 
(10:07:55)<Lohen>well I guess if you mean
(10:07:59)<Lohen>some spells won't ever appear
(10:08:00)<tametick>it would be significant 
(10:08:03)<Lohen>then yeah
(10:08:34)<Lohen>and along those lines you could even take it a step further and make it so fighter special attacks appear (spells, just different flavor text)
(10:08:44)<Lohen>and certain attacks ONLY appear for Fighters
(10:09:14)<Lohen>I do love the cooldown system, I was going to use one like it in my own puzzle / strategy game The Wizard's Tower
(10:09:30)<Lohen>and it makes it easy to make "spells" into generic "abilities" appropriate class by class
(10:09:36)<Lohen>like you were saying with ranged attacks
(10:09:57)<Lohen>there could be melee attacks that are technically spells as far as the game is concerned, but to the player they are not spells because the flavor text does not say they are a spell
(10:10:28)<Lohen>you would one-up every Roguelike ever made that restricted fighter classes to bumping into enemies until they die
(10:10:38)<Lohen>by having the most interesting Fighter class out of any of them
(10:11:03)<Lohen>it would also help solve choke point fighting
(10:11:15)<Lohen>if fighters had special attacks that helped them with fighting in the open
(10:11:20)<Lohen>like a whirlwind that hit in all 4 sides
(10:11:26)<Lohen>they wouldn't have to be so afraid of being surrounded
(10:11:40)<Lohen>right now there is basically zero reason to ever fight outside a corridor
(10:11:45)<Lohen>it just isn't effecient
(10:12:00)<Lohen>Crawl struggles with this
(10:12:17)<Lohen>to this day I'm not sure they've come up with a solution to people fighting around corners and choke points constantly
(10:12:41)<Lohen>and if you're going for an arcadey feel, choke points and column humping are not very arcadey
(10:13:09)<Lohen>they are however, the optimal strategy
(10:13:20)<Lohen>(as of right now today)
(10:16:09)<tametick>that doesn't bother me too much
(10:16:23)<tametick>(corridor fighting being a good strategy that is)
(10:16:34)<Lohen>well right now it isn't just a good strategy, it is the only strategy
(10:16:48)<Lohen>there is no equivalantly effective option
(10:17:10)<Lohen>either you trade 1 hit for being hit by every enemy surrounding you, or you force a choke point
(10:17:33)<Lohen>if you ahd a whirlwind (even on a cooldown) at least you would have the option to trade hit for hit that 1 round
(10:18:21)<Lohen>I think it would also be really cool if Fighters could Charge the enemy, or if the Minotaur could :)
(10:18:29)<tametick>you can add it to the list of spells in the google doc
(10:18:52)<Lohen>say you can pick a target 3 spaces away, and you move to them and do an attack for 150% dmg in one round
(10:19:05)<Lohen>very active! very actiony!
(10:19:34)<Lohen>maybe not have the Minotaur do 150% dmg though since it always one shots you ;_;
(10:19:48)<Lohen>not that the boost matters @_@
(10:19:51)<Lohen>dead is dead
(10:23:30)<Lohen>Ok I added the 3 things to the cq 1.2 document
(10:26:59)<randomnine>hehe, i was thinking along the lines of fighter-specific melee skills as well
(10:27:17)<randomnine>variations like a hit that stuns, or an attack that does extra damage
(10:27:52)<Lohen>Charge, does normal dmg, and stuns!
(10:27:56)<randomnine>it wouldn't need much
(10:27:59)<Lohen>there are so many possibilities
(10:28:03)<Lohen>to make Fighters distinct
(10:28:10)<Lohen>and Rogues for that matter
(10:28:33)<Lohen>using your drop rate modified method you could control all of this
(10:28:38)<randomnine>there'll definitely have to be some class-specific stuff in the spell system
(10:28:56)<Lohen>like the 3x3 Fireball spell only drops for Wizards, period
(10:28:58)<randomnine>especially as we'll be adding more classes
(10:29:27)<Lohen>but part of me thinks maybe spell / ability gain should be tied into the level process, to give that system more meaning
(10:29:47)<randomnine>fireball damage is, at least
(10:29:57)<randomnine>i might change things so classes gain stat boosts/spells at certain levels
(10:30:00)<tametick>Lohen: that goes against the cq spirit 
(10:30:07)<randomnine>just to see if that works
(10:30:16)<tametick>finding the skills in the dungeon is what's unique about it
(10:30:30)<tametick>instead of gaining them as you level up
(10:30:49)<Lohen>eh you find skills in the dungeon in Desktop Dungeons long before your game was playable
(10:30:55)<randomnine>actually, in nethack, the only way to acquire spells is to find them
(10:31:05)<tametick>yeah fine :p
(10:31:12)<randomnine>hehe
(10:31:28)<tametick>DD was an inspiration but it's still the less common mechanic 
(10:31:38)<randomnine>cq's got a good system
(10:32:14)<randomnine>maybe having fighter-specific skills as spells you can find will be enough to make the spell system more involving for fighters
(10:32:21)<tametick>i just don't want it to become overburdened with needless complexity 
(10:32:29)<tametick>right now the game is fast and tight 
(10:32:50)<tametick>yeah. only need to bias the spell generator sufficiently for that 
(10:33:03)<tametick>and that goes for all characters 
(10:33:45)<tametick>also now with your change we can tie all kinds of stat to cooldown. but must be careful not to make spirit the lame stat, since it only influences cooldown and nothing else
(10:34:03)<tametick>so maybe still keep most spells/skill depending on spirit, or at least the most powerful ones
(10:38:59)<randomnine>oh yeah, definitely
(10:39:29)<randomnine>tbh the only class that benefits strongly from non spirit based skills atm is the fighter
(10:41:52)<tametick>well
(10:41:54)<tametick>i'm heading to bed
(10:42:01)<tametick>talk to you all tomorrow! 
(10:42:42)<Lohen>There is another problem that needs addressed
(10:42:54)<Lohen>Itemization is severely limited, you don't really get any control over your stat focus
(10:43:25)<Lohen>There needs to be more item variety so people can choose which items they want to use to focus their stats
(10:43:40)<Lohen>As a spell user you would obviously want to focus Spirit
(10:43:45)<Lohen>it wouldn't go out of fashion
(10:43:59)<Lohen>I see 2 possible paths here
(10:44:40)<Lohen>1, you go to a real class-less system, because you're already there as of how the game works right now. you have a starting kit (spell), but you don't really play differently since every class equips the same gear and casts the same spells eventually
(10:44:58)<Lohen>it is just like Crawl actually
(10:45:11)<Lohen>that game lets you pick a "class" which is really just a starting kit
(10:45:17)<Lohen>you develop independently of it
(10:45:28)<Lohen>and right now that is how this game is
(10:45:48)<Lohen>so leave the choices of your initial spell / gear loadout as the "class"
(10:46:01)<Lohen>OR, you could have real classes
(10:46:20)<Lohen>With class restricted equipment and spells
(10:46:28)<Lohen>I'm kind of in favor of the current approach
(10:46:58)<randomnine>a much broader item system is in the works
(10:46:59)<Lohen>It would be neat if you could start out as a Mage, find some cool Fighter style special attacks, and orient your stats towards them with gear if you found the right gear
(10:47:16)<Lohen>Is that more what you're aiming for?
(10:48:04)<randomnine>there's nothing wrong with that, but the mage's going to suffer for low attack/defence/vitality stats and not be using their high spirit stat efficiently
(10:48:21)<Lohen>well they could keep a few spells of course
(10:48:28)<Lohen>sort of a spellsword hybrid if they wanted to
(10:48:38)<randomnine>yeah, totally doable
(10:48:44)<randomnine>likewise a fighter could get spirit boosts
(10:48:50)<Lohen>part of Crawl is adapting based on what the RNG gives you
(10:49:05)<Lohen>right now there isn't a lot of RNG in your game, so you don't really have to adapt
(10:49:27)<randomnine>i'm thinking of something like, each kind of item can have boosts for one of two or three stats. so your inventory won't get filled up by random optional junk
(10:49:31)<jday>In borrowing from CQ's arcade roots, strong class differentiation is very important.
(10:49:51)<randomnine>but you'll still get to adapt to a weirder style if you want to customise
(10:50:01)<Lohen>Is there some kind of listing of what the core philosophies of this design are?
(10:50:07)<Lohen>Crawl has one as part of the game documentation
(10:50:40)<randomnine>crawl is open-source
(10:50:43)<randomnine>for cq, you just ask ido
(10:50:47)<Lohen>because jday the game does not have distinct classes as it stands right now, but that could be a strength in itself by letting the player play the class how they would like to
(10:51:07)<Lohen>and reducing the role of "class selection" to "starting kit selection" intentionally
(10:51:35)<Lohen>like a Cleric that always starts with Heal, but from there you can become whatever the gear you find allows you to become
(10:51:51)<randomnine>what i suspect will happen, long term, is:
(10:52:44)<randomnine>- your class determines your stats and starting gear, including probably one powerful and class-defining skill (like berserk, fireball, shadow walk, heal) which you're very unlikely to find in the wild
(10:53:28)<randomnine>- your class might give you a few stat boosts as you level up
(10:53:50)<jday>I have a Lohen-inspired idea for Berserk here -- make it attack cardinally adjacent enemies, and have it keep itself alive longer if you do so.
(10:54:00)<randomnine>- the spells you find will be biased towards the sorts of things your class might find useful
(10:54:50)<randomnine>- gear you find will have a range of stat boosts in each slot, and your character will automatically prefer stuff that boosts the class's core stats
(10:56:08)<jday>I wonder if we should make all boosts be % boosts to your core stat.
(10:56:21)<jday>So a thief equipped for speed will be faster than a wizard equipped for speed, for instance.
(10:57:12)<randomnine>soemthing like that might be worthwhile, yeah.
(10:57:44)<randomnine>though the thief will just have a higher base speed stat, so he'll always have *some* advantage
(10:57:54)<randomnine>*something
(10:58:16)<jday>Only a % gain or exponential gain (which comes out to the same thing, give or take) will actually preserve the advantage in a meaningful way.
(10:58:24)<jday>Plus or minus two doesn't matter much at nine.
(10:59:04)<randomnine>well, in the case of speed, it kinda does. but with spirit, yeah, not so much
(11:03:46)<jday>With the wizard, for instance, I don't want kiting to be the main tactic.  The thief should be fast since that's how he escapes -- the wizard should have more interesting ways to get ahead.
(11:04:15)<jday>(Enter Lohen, with ideas on how to achieve that.)
(11:05:33)<Lohen>[18:35] <@randomnine> - the spells you find will be biased towards the sorts of things your class might find useful
(11:05:47)<Lohen>I think that is not necessary if you are willing to embrace letting people play their class how they wish to
(11:05:56)<Lohen>and you mentioned no longer having level ups change your stats
(11:06:04)<Lohen>I like that in conjunction with having more variety of gear
(11:06:18)<Lohen>let starting stats act as a baseline, but then let gear determine how your final character behaves
(11:07:05)<Lohen>part of the skill of the game becomes recognizing which equipment and skill combinations will allow you to finish the game
(11:07:15)<Lohen>"when god gives you lemons, make lemonade"
(11:07:29)<Lohen>win with less than ideal equipment for what your starting class would desire
(11:14:50)<Lohen>jday the easy way to make Wizards less corridor friendly is to reward them for not fighting in corridors
(11:15:01)<Lohen>same as my idea for Fighter AoE attacks
(11:15:15)<Lohen>give the player a reason to leave the corridor, make the value of leaving equal to or greater than the value of staying
(11:15:36)<Lohen>as the game stands it only really rewards you for choke point fighting and kiting
(11:15:43)<Lohen>which would lend itself to a bow user ideally
(11:15:52)<Lohen>not a grand master of destructive magic
(11:16:04)<jday>We get that part -- what's your fix?
(11:17:15)<Lohen>create spells that work better outside of a corridor
(11:17:31)<Lohen>I mean give me a bit of time to come up with something different from Whirlwind :)
(11:19:15)<Lohen>they could have a necromantic spell that deals dmg in a 3x3 area centered on them (bigger than whirlwind, nsew only for that), and heals the Mage for a % of the dmg done per target
(11:19:22)<Lohen>or a shield spell
(11:19:37)<Lohen>so they don't have to be deathly afraid of melee range, and when the shield is destroyed it reactively deals AoE dmg
(11:19:49)<Lohen>I mean a real shield, like that absorbs X amount of damage
(11:20:02)<Lohen>and when it reaches capacity it released the stored damage
(11:20:06)<Lohen>or a time limit
(11:20:27)<jday>I still don't want the Wizard to be happy confronting enemies directly -- how do we encourage the wizard to make use of wide open spaces, while still not wanting to stand head-to-head with enemies?
(11:20:29)<Lohen>there are all kinds of spells that can be made that have short range and are very powerful
(11:20:49)<jday>(Because short range converges on melee really quickly.)
(11:21:13)<Lohen>well becaue of the restrictions on movement and attacks, nswe
(11:21:18)<Lohen>you are very limited
(11:21:41)<Lohen>you really don't have a lot of choices for a "mid range" fight, but I could see trying to make that niche for the wizard
(11:21:49)<Lohen>you could, for example, have an ideal range for spells
(11:21:55)<Lohen>targets 2 spaces from you take double damage
(11:22:03)<Lohen>that sort of things
(11:22:21)<Lohen>the thing is as soon as you leave a chokepoint, you have to account for the very likely scenario of being surrounded
(11:22:35)<Lohen>if you can't survive that, there is no point
(11:23:08)<Lohen>you could have a different kind of AoE
(11:23:15)<Lohen>that has long range, and deals damage in a + shape
(11:23:19)<jday>-- which clearly means that we need to find ways to avoid getting surrounded.
(11:23:20)<Lohen>like bomberman ;)
(11:23:43)<Lohen>Well there is a problem with that and only giving them 1 starting spell
(11:24:06)<jday>We can change that.  That's fine.
(11:25:03)<jday>(A Spell of Recharging -- it would have a very long cooldown, but it would recharge all other spells when you used it!  Just have to make sure they never find two of it.)
(11:29:02)<Lohen>If you gave them a 5x5 area random teleport spell, they would still need an offensive spell to go with it
(11:29:02)<jday>Ideal ranges could work well.
(11:29:16)<jday>I like the idea of a 5x5 teleport spell, random or otherwise.
(11:29:18)<Lohen>but put the 5x5 area teleport on a very short cooldown
(11:29:27)<Lohen>controlled + short cooldown = op
(11:29:38)<Lohen>but if the idea is to be in the medium range but stay out of reach
(11:29:57)<jday>controlled + short cooldown + no other balancing = op.
(11:30:04)<Lohen>a random blink that could attempt to place you 2 spaces away from enemies
(11:30:08)<Lohen>would be workable
(11:30:17)<Lohen>on a shortish cd
(11:30:25)<jday>True, as long as it doesn't place you next to enemies it could be ok.
(11:30:37)<jday>Especially if it didn't eat a turn when you used it.
(11:30:39)<Lohen>but you would want a short cd plinking spell to go with it
(11:30:43)<Lohen>in the starting kit
(11:30:55)<Lohen>alternatively, this is a combo you could find as you play
(11:31:02)<Lohen>and just start with the long range fireball you get now
(11:31:42)<jday>Ok, right.  A long range, slow cooldown spell like fireball, and a shorter range, weaker, faster charging spell to fill in the gaps.
(11:32:15)<jday>This is starting to sound like fun.
(11:32:25)<jday>Joist, any thoughts?  You've played Wizards extensively.
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/20 +++
(12:10:55)<Lohen>right jday, they can have their long CD long range, while Archers have short CD long range
(12:11:02)<Lohen>and then shorter cd closer range spells
(12:11:45)<jday>I particularly like the idea of the Wizard casting a few spells to set the mood for the combat and then diving in and making midrange mayhem.
(12:12:20)<Lohen>right, open with a long range AoE fireball
(12:12:23)<Lohen>then get in the mix
(12:13:04)<Lohen>I do think they should get a shield that absorbs damage outright
(12:13:14)<Lohen>optional use of course
(12:13:23)<Lohen>they could combine that with combat skills, etc...
(12:13:31)<jday>That's not enough.  It needs a more flavorful drawback.
(12:13:37)<Lohen>drawback?
(12:13:40)<jday>Because a magical shield is still just +def.
(12:13:44)<Lohen>no
(12:13:50)<Lohen>damage absorbtion, not +def stat
(12:13:55)<Lohen>also no spell should just adjust stats
(12:14:02)<Lohen>that is something that should be high priority
(12:14:23)<jday>I do agree with that latter point, but you're wrong unless you mean the shield would absorb 50% of all damage or something.
(12:14:25)<Lohen>(also finding spells on the floor is something Crawl does, while we're making a list of games that already do that)
(12:14:38)<Lohen>No I mean it would absorb X amount of damage completely
(12:14:40)<Lohen>then be gone
(12:15:04)<Lohen>bonus, if you get the shield destroyed, it damages anything adjacent to you, or just the monster that destroyed it
(12:15:28)<Lohen>it is like an artificial hp buffer, because you probably can't take many hits up close
(12:15:28)<jday>So it would boost your def temporarily and then disappear.  Not saying that's bad, just saying that's what it is.  Def is all or nothing in cq, so not getting hit = very high def.
(12:15:33)<Lohen>not your def
(12:15:42)<Lohen>it isn't a stat change
(12:15:51)<Lohen>it is just artificial HP on top your normal MaxHP
(12:15:58)<Lohen>your avoidance behaves like normal
(12:16:14)<Lohen>if you DO get hit, it deducts HP from your buffer (the spell's effect) first
(12:16:24)<jday>Right.  Interpreting it as an hp buffer is probably more productive.  It's still not terribly different from just having more hp and some healing.
(12:16:39)<Lohen>well it can be different if you have it react on destruction
(12:16:46)<Lohen>that gives you some impetus to use it to get close
(12:16:56)<Lohen>if you wanted to be a spellsword type hybrid
(12:17:01)<jday>(And you should recognize, when I argue that it's just the same as +def, that I am clearly not talking about stat changes.  Give people some credit.)
(12:17:18)<Lohen>well lets be specific with our use of terminology ;o
(12:17:42)<Lohen>in Diablo you get Mana Shield, but since this game doesn't have mana you would just get a fixed amount of buffer
(12:18:00)<Lohen>to make it more interesting than just a HP buffer, have it cause a reaction of some kind when you DO get hit
(12:18:15)<Lohen>like either damage when it is destroyed, or damage every time you get hit (small)
(12:18:27)<jday>It's more interesting, but it makes you more like a fighter, not less.
(12:18:29)<Lohen>the second idea there is probably better, would really lend itself to wading on it
(12:19:05)<Lohen>well the thing is, if you're not taking items with defensive stats, you're playing the riskiest class in the game by being in mid range with no defenses
(12:19:06)<jday>We need things that force you to position yourself tactically.
(12:19:49)<Lohen>especially if the Minotaur got the ability to charge you :3
(12:20:38)<jday>I could imagine an ability that gives you a one-turn guarantee -- i.e., between the first hit that landed and your next turn, you could not be killed.
(12:21:06)<Lohen>sure
(12:21:10)<Lohen>even that would be ok
(12:21:15)<Lohen>just some kind of insurance against being instagibbed
(12:21:39)<jday>(About the +def issue for a moment -- remember that we're defining the system.  Drawing attention to equivalences is all-important.)
(12:21:41)<Lohen>part of what makes roguelikes tactical is that even if you make 1 mistake, you SHOULD have an opportunity to react to that mistake
(12:21:53)<jday>I think that captures it pretty well, yeah.
(12:22:08)<jday>We should have more than one option available that does that -- I want to make the manashield family work, too.
(12:22:14)<Lohen>I mean you can make a REALLY bad mistake, but usually mistakes in roguelikes are a culmination
(12:22:23)<Lohen>you made a series of bad choices and you died
(12:22:50)<Lohen>even if it looks like "I got cornered by X" and died, what you did in previous levels, etc.. all factor in
(12:22:58)<jday>Simply having an HP counter doesn't cut it, but something that does absorb damage would work well if we could find the right way to do it.
(12:24:30)<Lohen>I do like the idea of a Mage that dances just outside the enemy's reach, pelting them with spells
(12:24:36)<Lohen>a finesse class
(12:24:42)<jday>It sounds like it would be fun.
(12:24:50)<Lohen>it just needs to not be unfairly squishy
(12:25:17)<Lohen>like, better defensive options than an Archer, because you don't have the consistant long range attacks an Archer gets
(12:25:38)<Lohen>worse defenses than a Fighter because you're not supposed to be taking a lot of melee hits
(12:25:57)<Lohen>sort of the same defenses a Rogue would have
(12:26:01)<Lohen>for ducking in and out of combat
(12:26:16)<Lohen>speaking of, Rogues should get a throwing knife :)
(12:26:29)<jday>Similar, yes.  So we need to find more abilities that complement that -- it's tricky.
(12:26:46)<jday>Hmm.  Thrown weapons, which end up where you threw them?  That could almost work.
(12:27:37)<Lohen>mid range attack, treat it like a spell
(12:27:43)<Lohen>medium cd
(12:28:26)<Lohen>the more I think about this the more I think there really should be specific slot types that change based on your class archtype, and enough variety in spells / abilities that you have room to customize the class differently each time you play it
(12:28:55)<Lohen>it would be more elegant than relying entirely on fixing the drop RNG
(12:29:02)<Lohen>give the classes a more distinct feel
(12:29:35)<jday>No cool down on a thrown weapon, if we have it -- you just have to pick it up again.
(12:29:49)<jday>Which would fit with the thief's style of play, I think.
(12:29:50)<Lohen>well jday I'm saying "Throw Knife" is the spell description, not an actual weapon
(12:29:59)<jday>And I'm saying exactly the same damn thing.
(12:30:05)<Lohen>don't worry about ammo / picking up knives
(12:30:09)<Lohen>that doens't fit the flow of this game
(12:30:17)<jday>But when you cast it, the spell would appear on that cell instead of being in your inventory.
(12:30:22)<Lohen>it is actually one of the most tedious and shitty parts of playing a ranged class in Crawl
(12:30:56)<jday>But think of why that is the case.
(12:30:57)<Lohen>I see what you mean and it amounts to the same thing I'm saying is shitty and would slow the game down
(12:31:26)<Lohen>because that is exactly what it does in Crawl
(12:31:51)<jday>I mean, if the purpose of the weapon is to open up a group of enemies by knocking one of them out (maybe with the backstab bonus but with no automatic discovery), it would be a good opening to an attack.
(12:32:03)<jday>And since you're walking there anyway, it doesn't penalize you with a gathering phase.
(12:32:11)<Lohen>well you could do that, or you could use it as a light kiting option
(12:32:13)<jday>In Crawl it's annoying because you have a whole stack to recover and manage.
(12:32:40)<Lohen>the idea behind a thrown knife ranged attack is more to give Rogues options outside of melee range, albeit not as good as an Archer or a Mage
(12:33:06)<jday>The idea appeals to me because it doesn't turn the thief into an archer/mage with a reliable ranged weapon; instead, it's something that complements the thief's playstyle.
(12:33:19)<jday>"Same thing, not as good" is not compelling.
(12:33:33)<Lohen>the context changes though in relation to your other abilities
(12:33:57)<Lohen>it would be like saying Fireball on an Archer sucks because their main attack has a shorter CD anyway
(12:34:08)<Lohen>the Fireball is out of context when compared to the abilities an Archer has
(12:34:20)<Lohen>It was not meant to compete with shooting a bow
(12:34:48)<jday>I'm trying to slice this a little thinner than that.
(12:35:23)<jday>I'm simply saying that if we give the thief the same thing but flavor it differently, we'll get the same play out of it.  The thief isn't really meant to be a kiting character so much as stealth-lite.
(12:35:41)<Lohen>Right
(12:35:57)<Lohen>I'm just presenting an example, I like to think of Rogues as having a lot of tools to handle a variety of situations
(12:37:51)<jday>So do you see how my interpretation of a rogue's throwing weapon could be less boring than Crawl's?  Maybe still not compelling enough for a game like this, but better than some?
(12:39:09)<Lohen>you know what could be cool, is if Rogues had a set of abilities that functioned differently based on if you're Stealthed or not
(12:39:23)<jday>I agree.  That could be very nice.
(12:39:55)<Lohen>so a typical fight would have you choose how you wanted to open it, you'd get 1 super powered attack
(12:40:18)<Lohen>then you'd have to manage the rest of the fight with the tools you did not powre up
(12:40:24)<Lohen>with the Stealth bonus
(12:45:34)<jday>I was wondering whether traps or timed effects might play well with the thief.
(12:45:50)<jday>Going back to the bomberman effect, for one example.
(12:48:04)<Lohen>sure
(12:48:18)<Lohen>maybe make it so you can only set a trap while hidden
(12:48:32)<Lohen>to prevent abuse / kiting
(12:49:03)<Lohen>There are so many things you can explore if you start making the classes more distinct than they currently function
(12:49:14)<Lohen>but there are advantages to every approach
(12:49:33)<Lohen>if you want to create a distinct class feel though, you can't use the Crawl approach as we are right now
(12:51:40)<Lohen>everything we just talked about for the Rogue would need to be hard coded into them and available every game
(12:51:46)<Lohen>maybe not all at level 1
(12:51:53)<Lohen>but guaranteed to be available at fixed points
(12:52:07)<Lohen>I like the idea of each level up being given a choice between 2 abilities
(12:52:16)<Lohen>and never getting to pick what you gave up
(12:52:22)<Lohen>not even later on
(12:52:40)<Lohen>that way every play through, even the same class will play very differently based on which choices you pick each level
(12:53:17)<Lohen>having only 2 choices expedites the process and keeps the action flowing
(12:54:00)<Lohen>an example of progression: slow down leveling to only happen 4 times
(12:54:25)<Lohen>every class starts with something distinct to them (a bow, a nuke, stealth, charge, heal, etc...)
(12:54:36)<Lohen>then at each of their 4 level ups they can pick 1 new skill to put in their spell bar
(12:55:11)<Lohen>that system would put a TON of control in what the Class "X" experience is 
(12:55:15)<Lohen>in your hands
(12:56:19)<Lohen>then each class would have 2^4 ways to be built
(12:56:32)<Lohen>16~
(12:56:50)<Lohen>if we were REALLY good, even a difference of 1 skill would be felt by the player
(12:56:59)<Lohen>so build 15 would not play exactly like build 16
(12:57:23)<Lohen>that is where a real test of design capability would come in :)
(12:58:08)<Lohen>a lot of games fail by making those decisions too obvious, always having some spell or another that is mandatory and having a few (or a lot) of garbage picks
(01:01:29)<Lohen>"[20:37] <Lohen> that system would put a TON of control in what the Class "X" experience is 
(01:01:49)<Lohen>I should clarify that, it gives a lot of control to the developer, but also to the player, with 16 different varieties of Class ???X??? to pick from
(01:02:26)<Lohen>it also offers impetus to try again, because you really want to see what your new ability choices are if you had survived ONE MORE LEVEL
(02:13:28)<Lohen>jday ?
(02:15:00)<jday>I'm not sold on it; I like the idea of giving them more than what they need and just letting them pare it down to something useful.
(06:53:53)<tametick>morning 
(06:54:29)<tametick>man you'd think cq is unplayable from all the bug reports i'm getting
(06:54:41)<tametick>but i guess that's due to the huge influx of player all at once
(06:54:45)<tametick>>40k in 1 day
(06:55:04)<tametick>42,060 atm
(06:55:16)<k00pa>is that real time ?
(06:55:25)<tametick>i don't think it's entirely real time
(06:55:35)<tametick>but it updates every time i log into kong
(06:55:38)<k00pa>is that ALL the games or only ones on the thing there what
(06:55:52)<tametick>it's for cq only
(06:56:08)<tametick>cq on kongregate only
(06:56:15)<k00pa>yeah
(06:56:18)<k00pa>on kongregate only
(06:56:19)<tametick>people who play on this page http://www.kongregate.com/games/idoyehi/cardinal-quest
(06:56:21)<k00pa>not on desura example
(06:56:21)<tametick>yes
(06:56:24)<jday>Wait, 40k bug reports -- ?
(06:56:24)<tametick>'no
(06:56:33)<k00pa>40k bug reports would be pretty awesome
(06:56:34)<tametick>jday: no maybe 7-8 bug reports 
(06:56:43)<jday>Phew.
(06:56:50)<k00pa>tametick: note that only like 5-10% people actually report the bugs
(06:56:55)<k00pa>expect if there is a automatic system
(06:56:56)<jday>I'm finally making real progress on my inventory rewrite, by the way.  It's been a good evening.
(06:57:16)<tametick>k00pa: kong makes it pretty easy. just click a feedback link
(06:57:31)<jday>Any interesting bugs, tametick?
(06:57:34)<tametick>awesome jday. that was what most of them complained about 
(06:57:58)<tametick>jday: one that we didn't know of before, was reported by 2-3 people about the camera not following the player
(06:58:11)<tametick>i entered that into the bug list linked in the topic
(06:58:19)<tametick>i can't imagine what would trigger that
(06:58:45)<tametick>but i suspect it has nothing to do with web version vs. desktop version
(06:59:14)<jday>Neither can I.  Even when you die, the camera never stops following the player.  There's no special case logic in there anywhere.
(07:00:02)<tametick>refreshing helps, so it's just on some particular coincidence that apparently happens  often enough for a couple of people out of 40k to encounter it and comment about it
(07:01:21)<tametick>but first time that it happens. also this is with the 1.1c release, so just before randomnine started making his changes (so the changes of the last few days aren't the reason, but might be a change just before 1.1c)
(07:01:31)<tametick>since we never heard about it before
(07:02:13)<k00pa>tametick: yeah then I would say 20%
(07:02:29)<k00pa>as most player most likely don't even understand the concept of a bug report
(07:03:07)<tametick>k00pa: well i call it bug report 
(07:03:11)<tametick>for them it's just a comment 
(07:07:03)<k00pa>ah
(07:07:14)<k00pa>then it could be better
(07:12:03)<tametick>but i agree that most people would still not say anything
(07:14:34)<k00pa>yeah
(11:41:21)<Lohen>heh
(11:41:27)<Lohen>when jday said he had work to do
(11:41:34)<Lohen>I didn???t realize he meant on this
(11:53:02)<konijn>back
(11:53:08)<konijn>web client had trouble last night for me
(11:59:43)<tametick>konijn: http://twitter.com/#!/tametick/status/126963812703281152
(12:09:35)<konijn>yep
(12:09:41)<konijn>makes sense
(12:12:04)<randomnine>wait, so when you get to the end asterion just legs it? man!
(12:14:13)<konijn>legs it ?
(12:14:49)<randomnine>the final boss hopped in a portal and left
(12:24:12)<konijn>ah
(12:24:19)<konijn>Cardinal Quest II ? :P
(12:32:49)<k00pa>booring, call it carnival quest!
(12:33:47)<Lohen>randomnine I don???t know if you saw my massive rant about decisions on level up, but it would add a TON of replay value to the game
(12:34:06)<randomnine>lohen: reading now
(12:34:32)<Lohen>it would take a lot of work to implement, of course, but I???d be more than happy to help
(12:35:41)<Lohen>If you had 6 classes with 16 ways to build each one, you could claim 96 different class variants
(12:36:37)<Lohen>A game where this was used is Breath of Death VII, if you???ve heard of that
(12:37:04)<Lohen>every level up you didnt??? get a flat stat boost, you got a choice of either stat boosts (gain Atk or gain Magic) or ways to upgrade / get new abilities
(12:37:50)<Lohen>like some levels would be defense stat up vs. offense stat up, and other levels would be ???upgrade your Wild Slash to do more damage to a single target, or upgrade it to attack 3 enemies for lower dmg???
(12:38:05)<Lohen>Not saying that needs to be emulated here
(12:38:11)<Lohen>not exactly like that
(12:38:24)<Lohen>but the decision-on-level-up makes the event a LOT more meaningful
(12:38:56)<Lohen>bonus, if the player can???t unmake that decision, it encourages a new playthrough to see what that path would have been like
(12:39:15)<Lohen>in huge long games that would be a pain in the ass, but with the current length of CQ it would fit really well
(12:39:47)<Lohen>you could even add achievements for completing the game with different variants on Kong
(12:40:05)<Lohen>like Thief Master - completed the game using every possible Thief skill
(12:40:29)<Lohen>it might only take 2 replays to do that, but no guarantee you???d win each attempt ;)
(12:43:15)<randomnine>hmm. we could have one or two decision points like that, but i think at every level would be excessive
(12:44:14)<randomnine>i can see it adding some interesting breadth to character classes though.
(12:44:45)<Lohen>well yeah, part of it would be restricting level ups to 4 times
(12:44:58)<Lohen>that way each of the 4 level ups would be very meaningful
(12:45:11)<Lohen>and it would work with your current 5 skill slots
(12:45:17)<Lohen>1 skill to begin the game, then 1 extra per level up
(12:45:40)<randomnine>-shrug- we could quite comfortably just give a skill on level 3 and level 7 if we wanted for a given class and that would feel fine
(12:45:53)<Lohen>well you were already talking about removing the stat boosts
(12:46:04)<Lohen>if you did that there would be no real point in the ???filler??? levels
(12:46:09)<randomnine>eh?
(12:46:19)<Lohen>maybe it was more jday talking about that
(12:46:25)<Lohen>he was saying ???just give a hp refill on level up???
(12:47:04)<Lohen>idk as it stats leveling up is hardly a cause for celebration, the biggest impact it makes for me is the hp restore
(12:47:14)<Lohen>as it is, stats
(12:47:20)<randomnine>there aren't any stats boosts
(12:47:30)<randomnine>i've mentioned *adding* stats boosts when you level up
(12:47:30)<Lohen>no?
(12:47:40)<Lohen>well then I???m all kinds of confused :)
(12:47:48)<Lohen>that is counterintuitive
(12:47:48)<randomnine>yeah, currently, the only boost when you gain a level is that you gain max HP equal to your vitality
(12:47:51)<Lohen>ooooh
(12:47:54)<randomnine>(raw vitality, without buffs)
(12:47:57)<Lohen>ok so you do gain something
(12:48:33)<Lohen>I???m going to do an example write up, I think this sounds cooler in my head than it does when I explain it without an example
(12:50:00)<randomnine>as far as totally redoing skills so you get them when you level, i think you're proposing too radical a change from something which is already implemented and tested, works fairly well and which a lot of players are already familiar with
(12:50:17)<Lohen>:)
(12:50:19)<randomnine>even if it's unarguably a better system it's unlikely to go in
(12:51:23)<randomnine>'course, it's not my position to say :)
(12:51:30)<Lohen>well that is why I offered to help :)
(12:51:51)<Lohen>I know a LITTLE about programming, I???m half way through my 2nd course at school
(01:02:37)<Lohen>part of why I volunteered to help is because I want to dive into some real code and learn more
(01:04:18)<randomnine>cool :)
(01:04:37)<Lohen>I just need to think of an amazing capstone choice for L5 now :P
(01:04:50)<randomnine>hehe
(01:04:54)<Lohen>The ones I have so far are very roguey
(01:07:21)<Lohen>you can look if you want, they???re at the bottom of the doc
(01:07:26)<Lohen>You can see them in real time maybe?
(01:10:46)<Lohen>well you can get the point right now even if I don???t have an amazing idea yet for the final abilities
(01:11:09)<tametick>If you polymorph the "head for the stairs!" monsters they give you EXP.
(01:11:16)<tametick>^ another bug from kong
(01:11:23)<Lohen>nice
(01:13:01)<Lohen>tametick I hope you are in favor of differentiating the classes more somehow before the next 3 are added, right now it feels like they???re all the same class, a Fighter that uses support spells to kill things too tough for straight melee
(01:13:11)<tametick>yep
(01:13:16)<tametick>we talked about this before
(01:13:35)<tametick>about biasing spells for classes, so each get different spells
(01:13:59)<tametick>did you guys play doomrl?
(01:14:01)<Lohen>yes
(01:14:07)<Lohen>very fun game
(01:14:21)<tametick>can also do bonuses like the perks in doomrl perhaps, these don't break the balance too much and are fun to get
(01:14:35)<Lohen>tametick that is sort of what I???m proposing
(01:14:43)<Lohen>meaningful choices on level ups
(01:14:56)<tametick>and each class can have a different choice of bonus (+5% speed, spells last longer, weapons do more damage, etc)
(01:15:00)<Lohen>right!
(01:15:07)<tametick>you can try to think of a set of possible perks
(01:15:21)<Lohen>I already have :)
(01:15:27)<Lohen>go read the bottom of the google doc
(01:15:36)<tametick>doomrl style, that aren't too strong. the main vessel for advancement should still be the stuff you find in the dungeon imo
(01:15:40)<Lohen>the example assumes a max level of 5
(01:15:59)<tametick>that way you don't have a couple of "optimal builds", you have to make due with what you find to an extent 
(01:16:30)<Lohen>Well ???optimal builds??? only exist when balance has not been properly implemented
(01:16:42)<tametick>hrm
(01:16:54)<Lohen>I didn???t think of a great level 5 choice yet, but you get the idea
(01:17:02)<tametick>i rather more like a list of skill than a 1 of 2 choice each levle myself
(01:17:16)<tametick>but can brainstorm both approaches 
(01:17:26)<Lohen>well, part of the choice of 2 model???s purpose is that if you pick one, the other is gone forever
(01:17:39)<Lohen>it is a really meaningful choice
(01:18:23)<tametick>what about making them more tree-like?
(01:18:25)<Lohen>Picking from a list like in DooM RL just means there is an optimal order to pick them in, you make the same choice every game
(01:18:51)<tametick>Lohen: there is actually, some skills are better in different situations 
(01:18:57)<tametick>and there are dependencies 
(01:18:59)<Lohen>well tametick I did the math and currently if you consider there are 2 choices x 4 levels that leaves 16 different character builds
(01:19:05)<tametick>but yeah i'm not marries to the concept 
(01:19:07)<Lohen>if you wanted more trees
(01:19:18)<Lohen>it would complicate things a lot and become much harder to balance
(01:19:34)<tametick>that's another plus for a list of perks (some can have more than 1 level invested in them)
(01:19:52)<tametick>also there could *some* overlap in skills
(01:20:03)<tametick>e.g. maybe a skill or 2 that both the rogue and figher can have
(01:20:11)<Lohen>yeah if we run out of ideas
(01:20:22)<Lohen>or to emphasize that there are distinct sets of skills
(01:20:45)<Lohen>Combat, Magical, Finesse
(01:20:56)<Lohen>but that would probably be largely invisible
(01:20:57)<tametick>well at any rate i suggest that you write your skill ideas as they are and not in paricular class number
(01:21:10)<tametick>most of the time you'd reach level 9 by the end of the game
(01:21:27)<Lohen>tametick part of the system would be capping the level to 5 in the type of system I wrote about
(01:21:45)<tametick>hrm
(01:21:50)<Lohen>it would get unwieldy if you had to make these choices 9 times
(01:21:54)<tametick>then you don't advance at the late game?
(01:22:01)<Lohen>no, just space out leveling more
(01:22:06)<tametick>right, that's why i prefer the doomrl style
(01:22:14)<tametick>that's another option
(01:22:19)<Lohen>instead of level up every level, every 1.5 or 2
(01:22:27)<tametick>yeah
(01:22:29)<tametick>perhaps 
(01:22:35)<tametick>it's an option 
(01:23:03)<Lohen>but yeah this system would require some changes to implement, and be a lot of work, but the gains would be massive replay value even within the same class, and empowering the players to feel like their decisions are important
(01:23:49)<Lohen>like I don???t know if you noticed, but I purposefully divided those skill choices into non-stealth and stealth
(01:23:55)<Lohen>option 2 is always related to your stealth mechanic
(01:24:00)<tametick>well it does feel more arcadey
(01:24:03)<Lohen>option 1 is more rogue-combaty
(01:24:08)<tametick>and is not as commonly used
(01:24:13)<tametick>yeah
(01:24:23)<tametick>can also just give you a skill every other level
(01:24:28)<tametick>rather than every level
(01:24:38)<tametick>2,4,6,8
(01:24:40)<Lohen>you can do that without changing up the current system much, it would just make the in between levels a drag
(01:24:46)<tametick>very rarely would someone get the 5th skill
(01:24:58)<Lohen>I learned this from WoW, I freakign hate level ups where I don???t get either a talent point or a new skill
(01:25:05)<tametick>well we can increment hp on the in between levels 
(01:25:06)<tametick>OR
(01:25:09)<tametick>what randomnine suggested 
(01:25:18)<tametick>every odd level choose a stat to increment 
(01:25:24)<tametick>every even level choose a skill
(01:25:28)<Lohen>that would work
(01:25:43)<Lohen>I like that
(01:25:48)<tametick>what do you think randomnine?
(01:25:48)<Lohen>it would be just like Breath of Death VII at that point
(01:25:48)<Lohen>XD
(01:25:57)<Lohen>you should play that to get a feel for the system I???m talking about implemented in a real game
(01:26:14)<Lohen>BoD VII is a real gem
(01:26:14)<tametick>never heard of it
(01:26:27)<Lohen>originally launced on XBox Live Arcade
(01:26:32)<tametick>sounds like a flash game
(01:26:47)<tametick>oh that
(01:26:50)<Lohen>saw MASSIVE sales (over $100k) in the first 3 days on Steam
(01:26:51)<tametick>from the cthulhu guys
(01:26:55)<Lohen>yes
(01:27:27)<tametick>can get both for 1.99 euros
(01:27:32)<tametick>i'm sold
(01:28:05)<tametick>the video on steam deosn't show any combat 
(01:28:23)<Lohen>heh
(01:28:24)<tametick>ah, is it jrpg style combat?
(01:28:27)<Lohen>I actually just gifted you it
(01:28:30)<Lohen>$3 us
(01:28:38)<Lohen>I believe in the game that much
(01:28:38)<tametick>thanks!
(01:28:52)<Lohen>It is jrpg style, but they fixed things annoying about jrpgs
(01:28:57)<Lohen>like you restore full HP after every battle
(01:29:03)<tametick>i'm surprised it is cheaper in europe
(01:29:05)<Lohen>and you can force random encounters
(01:29:06)<tametick>1.99 euro here
(01:29:13)<Lohen>isn???t the Euro worth more than the Dollar?
(01:29:17)<Lohen>or did that change?
(01:29:32)<tametick>yeah but not 50% more
(01:29:37)<Lohen>:)
(01:29:39)<tametick>maybe 30%
(01:29:49)<Lohen>I really need to beat those games
(01:29:53)<Lohen>I love them
(01:30:09)<tametick>i have to many games to play
(01:30:11)<Lohen>and when you level up the game gives you a choice as you mentioned, either new skills / buffing old skills, or stat A over stat B
(01:30:14)<Lohen>same here
(01:30:19)<tametick>is cthulhu also the same style rpg?
(01:30:28)<Lohen>I did not even start that one yet ;_;
(01:30:53)<Lohen>jday wanted me to try Brogue too
(01:31:06)<Lohen>I have 40 games from Good Old Games to beat
(01:31:11)<Lohen>probably 40 in STeam as well
(01:31:31)<Lohen>not enough hours in the day
(01:32:10)<tametick>yeah didn't get into brogue myself
(01:32:24)<tametick>i guess it needs a bit more time before it becomes intersting 
(01:32:36)<tametick>but i was told it really improved in the last release 
(01:32:37)<Lohen>maybe, I am on the 4th floor and I still just bump into things
(01:32:53)<tametick>i was surprised how much i enjoyed frozen depths 
(01:33:00)<Lohen>what is that?
(01:33:11)<tametick>took a little while to get into, but i had a long train ride with nothing else to do
(01:33:20)<tametick>http://koti.mbnet.fi/frozend/
(01:36:25)<k00pa>lol mbnet
(01:36:31)<k00pa>I had my first websites there
(01:37:32)<k00pa>tametick: what kind of roguelike is that?
(01:38:19)<tametick>k00pa: it's quite a nice one. only fighter type classes, go down the dungeon kill everything kind of deal
(01:38:24)<tametick>gotta keep warm
(01:38:32)<tametick>have a nice bunch of items and skills
(01:39:03)<tametick>anyone played this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_Labyrinth
(01:39:23)<Lohen>tametick I like the sound of this game
(01:39:27)<Lohen>Frozen Depths one
(01:39:36)<Lohen>seems like they cut a lot of the stuff that isn???t needed
(01:39:42)<tametick>yep
(01:40:02)<tametick>it take some getting used to, old school controls with a ton of keys
(01:41:45)<Lohen>Like many role-playing games, gold is present, though the only role it serves is to provide the player with a better funeral service upon death.
(01:41:49)<Lohen>hahaha that is awesome
(01:42:31)<tametick>i'm heading out with the dog
(01:42:34)<tametick>see you later
(01:46:58)<k00pa>hm hm
(01:47:05)<k00pa>I am planning my own roguelike
(01:47:19)<k00pa>and I am just thinking about making it much simpler
(01:47:28)<k00pa>(partly because I am lazy)
(01:47:32)<k00pa>like you won't choose class
(01:47:37)<k00pa>you automatically level the skills you use
(01:47:45)<k00pa>+ regular exp/level on top of that
(01:49:17)<Lohen>Crawl is like that, but you pick a starting kit
(01:49:21)<Lohen>the kit is not your ???class??? though
(01:49:30)<Lohen>you can gain skill in anything you choose to do
(01:49:43)<Lohen>race is actually a much larger decisions
(01:49:43)<Lohen>-s
(01:58:10)<k00pa>yaah
(02:09:28)<Lohen>wow
(02:09:29)<Lohen>http://www.i-mockery.com/shorts/shinobi-vs-spiderman/
(02:46:15)<randomnine>hehe
(02:46:32)<randomnine>just made it so that, when you go to cast a spell that targets monsters with the keyboard, the cursor starts on the nearest visible monster
(02:47:01)<randomnine>playing a wizard is now *so* much less fussy
(02:47:11)<wl>:)
(02:47:12)<wl>I like it
(02:48:06)<randomnine>i think i've fixed all the invisibility and floating hp bar bugs as well
(02:52:03)<Nukm>randomnine thats good to here, works well in other roguelikes and i am sure it will smooth ou the gameplay here aswell
(02:52:27)<randomnine>mm, especially when we add ranged weapons and such
(02:53:36)<Nukm>btw can you still target enemies that you cant see?
(02:53:42)<randomnine>nope
(02:53:47)<randomnine>that's all fixed now
(02:53:50)<Nukm>need to get the newest version ^^
(02:53:51)<Nukm>kk
(02:54:02)<randomnine>i'll upload a dev snapshot once i'm comfortable all this is working properly
(02:59:00)<tametick>randomnine: just so we know what to test, every major-ish feature/bug you do can you add it to the done list
(02:59:02)<tametick>?
(02:59:07)<tametick>in the google doc above
(02:59:09)<randomnine>naturally
(02:59:12)<tametick>thanks
(02:59:15)<randomnine>np
(02:59:50)<randomnine>just tracking down another bug - where you lose the buffs from your equipped items and they come up as '[null]' on the stats screen
(03:01:16)<randomnine>yeah, i think CqPlayer.respawn() wipes out all your equipment buffs.
(03:01:26)<randomnine>if you then unequip the items, you get negative buffs. :D
(03:07:04)<tametick>just got my android phone!
(03:07:27)<Nukm>this might be a stupid question, but how can i get an udpate version from bmt? bought the 1.0 version and "updated" when cq was free. but now i dont know how to get the latest one :(
(03:08:14)<tametick>Nukm:Sorry about this!
(03:08:16)<tametick>The BMT links are a bit messed up.
(03:08:22)<tametick>* http://d12dnsmfbcrswq.cloudfront.net/installers/CardinalQuest.exe
(03:08:24)<tametick>* http://d12dnsmfbcrswq.cloudfront.net/installers/CardinalQuest.dmg
(03:08:28)<tametick>these should keep up to date
(03:08:30)<Lohen>randomnine I cast a spell just now that killed a monster
(03:08:34)<Lohen>but I got hit too
(03:08:35)<Nukm>;) k ty
(03:08:58)<Lohen>in first level, first monster I attacked, he was next to me when I cast Fireball, it killed him, and I still took dmg
(03:09:13)<tametick>np Nukm 
(03:09:54)<Lohen>I see why
(03:10:01)<Lohen>when you cast Fireball, they get to move while the ball is in air
(03:10:11)<Lohen>and if they???re next to you, they would hit you instead of move
(03:10:23)<Lohen>or is this intentional?
(03:10:31)<Lohen>that spell effects need a 1/2 turn to resolve
(03:14:11)<joist>finally
(03:14:15)<randomnine>lohen: that should be fixed now
(03:14:21)<Lohen>also is it intentional that opening a door will allow a monster on the other side to immediately come out and attack you?
(03:14:27)<joist>quakenet locked me out for pretty much a day
(03:14:28)<Lohen>I just died opening a door ;_;
(03:14:41)<randomnine>yeah - that's allowed, if your speed is lower than theirs (and you're unlucky)
(03:14:50)<Lohen>seems a little cheap
(03:14:56)<randomnine>mm, it does
(03:15:03)<Lohen>like a real RL I wouldn???t really say anything
(03:15:18)<Lohen>exploration can be deadly!
(03:15:27)<Lohen>but the aim isn???t to be as punishing as a real RL 
(03:15:50)<Lohen>especially if you???ve put in a system where you???re supposed to explore or the game spawns monsters on top you
(03:16:28)<Lohen>death for opening doors just seems a little unfair
(03:16:37)<randomnine>mm
(03:19:39)<joist>Lohen: so don't open doors? games are about risk
(03:20:20)<Nukm>did the spells change between releases? haste/bless weapon seem to last longer, or is that just my imagination
(03:20:38)<randomnine>joist: that's pretty harsh :p
(03:20:51)<joist>it's pretty true
(03:20:54)<randomnine>games are about *controlling* risk, if there's nothing you can do about it, it's cheap
(03:20:59)<joist>don't attack enemies because they could hit you and hurt you
(03:21:26)<joist>Lohen: were you buffed and did you have full health?
(03:21:29)<Lohen>joist even most RL???s don???t punish you for opening doors, I think it usually counts as a 1/2 action or something
(03:21:50)<tametick>Nukm: might be
(03:22:04)<tametick>Nukm: i think we tweaked the values a bit in 1.1c
(03:22:09)<Lohen>and the point of this isn???t to be as challenging as a RL
(03:22:54)<Nukm>part of my feedback was that berserk is just like haste+bvless weapon and that it would make more sense to make them, differ a bit. making berserk short (but maybe extend the effect after each kill) and bless weapon/haste longer
(03:23:10)<Nukm>now i just tried 1.1c and they already feel longer
(03:23:12)<Nukm>;)
(03:23:18)<randomnine>berserk lasts half as long as bless weapon/haste
(03:23:19)<Lohen>Nukm :) I should write up my full Warrior revamp now that the Thief one is 4/5 done
(03:23:22)<randomnine>dunno how long that's been in
(03:23:53)<wl>Bless Weapon/Haste is still pretty useless, even with longer duration
(03:24:03)<Lohen>imagine how much cooler a Warrior would be that has a whirlwind attack that hits all sides, and a charge move that stuns an enemy and moves you forward 3 spaces in one turn, etc...
(03:24:12)<Lohen>real combat moves
(03:24:44)<Lohen>it would be more like Diablo and less like ???bump my head into dis guy???
(03:25:00)<Nukm>Lohen i dont like the whirlwind idea that much. each character is supposed to have weaknesses etc. the warrior has to be carefull where he fights and to not get surrounded. if you give him crowd control it also takes away a lot
(03:25:06)<wl>Combat is all about sticking objects into the other guy until he can't move anymore
(03:25:23)<Lohen>Nukm every character has to fight the same way
(03:25:28)<Lohen>find a corridor -> fight in it
(03:25:39)<wl>oO
(03:25:48)<wl>have you played wizard? :P
(03:25:50)<randomnine>now, that's not true. wizards can fight perfectly well by running like hell and flinging fireballs
(03:26:04)<Lohen>A Mage should be afraid of being surrounded more than a mighty warrior wearing ???Full plate and packing steel???
(03:26:10)<randomnine>and shadow walk works best in open spaces
(03:26:19)<wl>No, a Mage is never afraid
(03:26:21)<wl>He has teleport
(03:26:44)<Nukm>hmm well i guess it could differentiate the thief from the warrior
(03:26:47)<Lohen>You???re looking at this like an RL
(03:26:51)<Lohen>not an action arcade game
(03:26:54)<Nukm>if it was class specific
(03:27:03)<Nukm>^^
(03:27:09)<Lohen>action arcade games do not punish you for wanting to fight a group of monsters
(03:27:10)<wl>And you might be trying to make the game too complicated :P
(03:27:25)<Lohen>maybe if you???re meant to be a ranged fighter it will
(03:27:28)<wl>Well, you also can't expect that there is no challenge
(03:27:35)<Lohen>oh there can be plenty of challenge
(03:27:35)<wl>ANd you can just run whereever and just click the right button
(03:27:46)<Lohen>I didn???t say press Whirlwind -> everything dies
(03:28:01)<wl>Ofc not, you will survive!
(03:28:06)<Lohen>:)
(03:28:38)<Lohen>Anyways just let me finish making the idea coherent like I did with the Thief skill tree
(03:28:43)<Lohen>it will make a lot more sense
(03:28:56)<tametick>did you guys play 100 rogues?
(03:28:57)<wl>I haven't seen anything of that either :P
(03:29:11)<tametick>the knight had a skill a bit similar to what Lohen is suggesting 
(03:29:20)<Lohen>disclaimer: this is just brainstorming and might not really amount to anything in game
(03:29:23)<Lohen>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1X488gjE0c6BD8HTbZAwlmSZO3dIbVLlmdPdMX7n5VIY/edit?hl=en_US
(03:29:27)<Lohen>scroll to the bottom
(03:29:29)<wl>There are some valid ideas, but you always have to be careful not to make the game too complex, it works so well because it is not complex
(03:30:12)<tametick>^
(03:30:15)<Lohen>The Thief skill outline assumes simplicity in the form of no longer picking up spells off the ground, and only picking a new skill at the rate of 1.5-2 level ups in the current form
(03:30:16)<tametick>exactly wl 
(03:30:39)<tametick>Lohen: you are still picking up spell from the ground 
(03:30:55)<Lohen>it wouldn???t be necessary if you had the skills outlined in that
(03:31:01)<tametick>the new skill at level up are more like "+5% chance to stealth" etc
(03:31:05)<wl>But that would make pacifist runs way harder, I can now run around and get all spells without killing monsters :P
(03:31:11)<tametick>a la doomrl
(03:31:26)<tametick>they should be complimentary to the dungeon skills
(03:31:29)<tametick>not replace them
(03:31:35)<Lohen>maybe I should try to make my own game again to show you how good this would be :[
(03:31:40)<tametick>they are more like modifiers 
(03:31:41)<wl>Maybe ;)
(03:31:55)<randomnine>there we go, pushed a bunch of bugfixes
(03:31:57)<wl>And those can work Lohen, but not sure if it would work in cq
(03:31:59)<randomnine>lohen: it's the best way, honestly :D
(03:32:24)<Lohen>annoying though, having to reinvent the wheel
(03:33:13)<tametick>maybe at some point randomnine's text config files will be advanced enough to allow you to mod cq like that ;)
(03:33:45)<Lohen>the implementation I???m suggesting would seemlessly enter into your existing UI
(03:34:21)<Nukm>btw what do you guys think about healing? its such a deal breaker for the fighter and the theif in the first half of the game. once you get it you basically cannot die until much later in the game. and it also gets tiresome to wait out the cooldown (but you do what you have to do :D)
(03:34:25)<tametick>right, i am not objecting it on UI basis but on game play basis
(03:34:34)<Lohen>since (almost) every skill selection is an active skill, it would be just as action oriented as having 5 spells
(03:34:35)<Nukm>and it determines how many potions you have for the harder last levels
(03:34:40)<wl>Yes
(03:34:51)<tametick>Nukm: well now if you wait around a monster pops up near you
(03:34:51)<wl>maybe it should be a little less powerful
(03:34:57)<randomnine>nukm: i agree, heal is OP
(03:35:00)<wl>Only heal very few hp, but maybe a littler shorter cd?
(03:35:03)<randomnine>along with all the class specific skills
(03:35:17)<Nukm>oh didnt know that tametick, thats good
(03:35:27)<Nukm>i had an idea that would imho work well, but is not intuitive/simple enough i fear: each use lowers the maximum percentage of health you can heal up to. first use 10/10 hp, second use 8/10 hp, third use 6/10 hp, ... resetting with each levelup.
(03:35:28)<Lohen>monster that gives no xp
(03:35:33)<randomnine>imo Full Heal would be suited to being a priest-specific skill, not something you can find
(03:35:36)<tametick>randomnine: how about making heal heal you over a period? 
(03:35:38)<tametick>1hp per turn
(03:35:47)<Nukm>hmm
(03:35:58)<wl>Hmm, would be different, but not sure it would work that well
(03:36:07)<wl>But then agin, it would still promote potions
(03:36:09)<Lohen>ok fixed it
(03:36:12)<tametick>randomnine: i'm ok with that idea
(03:36:16)<randomnine>something like that might work. i think we just need to change the heal spell you can find to be a +x hp rather than a full heal
(03:36:22)<tametick>of only giving it to the cleric
(03:36:28)<Lohen>Assassination was the only passive, but it would work better as an active anyway
(03:36:31)<tametick>right
(03:37:01)<tametick>randomnine: i think all 3 are good ideas
(03:37:28)<randomnine>cool
(03:37:31)<tametick>only cleric heals (either full heal or at all, as you wish), heal x hp instead of full & not heal all at once
(03:37:48)<randomnine>i'm whittling down the bug list :) should be able to get on to new spells and items and class stuff soon
(03:37:56)<tametick>cool :)
(03:38:00)<randomnine>it's going to be interesting trying some of this stuff out
(03:38:12)<tametick>did i tell about the Japanese translation randomnine? 
(03:38:19)<randomnine>i saw that in the doc. cool stuff
(03:38:38)<tametick>yeah, seems pretty painless now that we have most text in text files
(03:39:02)<tametick>also, he said basic stuff like "new game", "credits", etc can stay english
(03:39:09)<tametick>and just the long texts translated 
(03:39:16)<randomnine>oh, that's cool
(03:40:06)<randomnine>well, most of the long text is there for translation now
(03:40:15)<randomnine>i think i'll move the names of items/spells out into a separate file for them
(03:40:48)<randomnine>at least 70% of the text in the game has to be in text files atm
(03:41:15)<Nukm>could do a german translation if you need someone for that
(03:41:50)<randomnine>there we go. http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-dev-20111020-1615.zip - current dev snapshot if anyone wants to go bug hunting :)
(03:42:11)<wl>Maybe this evening
(03:42:33)<tametick>yeah Nukm :)
(03:42:43)<tametick>add your email to the google doc in the topic 
(03:43:34)<wl>Wait... aren't you from Austria?
(03:43:42)<tametick>i live in austria
(03:43:45)<tametick>but am not austrian
(03:46:24)<Nukm>this might also have been rebalanced, but last time i finished the game with a fighter i just polymorphed all the minotaurs. worked in the first try on all of them without any special +spirit rquipment
(03:47:22)<randomnine>yup, polymorph always works on everything
(03:47:37)<randomnine>haha, i'm playing a wizard and the first spell i found was another fireball. bring it
(03:48:50)<Lohen>that doesn???t seem like a good thing
(03:49:24)<Nukm>yeah, polymorphing the boss monster with a non wizard class sounds lame, doesnt it?
(03:49:39)<Lohen>or having 2 fireballs so you can instagib anything from long range
(03:49:52)<Lohen>now, if you had 2 different spells ... :)
(03:50:12)<Lohen>2x of the same spell though is not as interesting as having 2 different attack spells
(03:51:04)<wl>text messages still get persistent when you go down a floor: http://wl.attrib.org/cq/2.png
(03:51:16)<wl>Never vanishes, the +3 speed will be on that spot (of the map) forever
(03:51:58)<tametick>well once we make the class spells only come once that particular problem won't happen anymore
(03:52:11)<randomnine>ooh, good call
(03:52:54)<randomnine>added to the list, and hell, i'll fix it now
(03:53:18)<randomnine>wl: was that a monster's text message or yours?
(03:53:24)<wl>mine
(03:53:28)<randomnine>k
(03:53:31)<wl>I did it on purpose to show for the screenshot
(03:53:36)<wl>It also happens with other messages
(03:53:43)<randomnine>including monsters'?
(03:53:43)<wl>As long as they are on the screen while going down
(03:53:46)<randomnine>ok
(03:53:53)<Nukm>erm tametick there is no list where i can add my mail in that doc, should i just put it next to the localization entry in the todo list?
(03:54:08)<wl>I know it also happens with the "go down the stairs" message from staying too long in one place
(03:54:26)<tametick>now there is :p
(03:54:53)<wl>I can also offer to proof read the translation and make fun of all mistakes in it
(03:56:25)<Nukm>hehe added my mail
(04:00:26)<Lohen>new plug post
(04:00:27)<Lohen>http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3444334
(04:00:30)<Lohen>I closed the old thread
(04:03:09)<tametick>:)
(04:05:50)<Lohen>would it be possible for me to see the source code of this at some point? I have no interest in cheating you somehow, I just want to learn and try implementing the system I???m talking about as a personal project to learn how to program better
(04:06:28)<Lohen>you can do whatever you want with it
(04:07:05)<Lohen>like make me sign a contract or whatever saying you own anything I do to your code
(04:10:40)<Lohen>I guess if you just gave me the Kong version code it is already free to play anyway, so it couldn???t hurt you no matter what?
(04:16:36)<randomnine>tametick: am i right in thinking jday's working on a UI overhaul? most of the known bugs left are UI related
(04:16:53)<wl>Pretty sure he is
(04:16:56)<tametick>randomnine: that is correct 
(04:16:59)<randomnine>cool
(04:17:12)<tametick>he is working on the buttons drag&drop stuff
(04:17:15)<Nukm>i have an empty spell slot with an active cooldown atm (dev snapshot) o0
(04:17:25)<tametick>so all the spells/inventory screen bugs are related to that 
(04:17:26)<randomnine>nukm: yeah, that's the sort of thing i'm wondering about :p
(04:18:02)<Nukm>need any info about it or working on that stuff atm anyway?
(04:18:04)<randomnine>i'll tidy up the ones about auto-selling and then make sure all the text ever is exported for translation
(04:18:17)<tametick>sounds good
(05:31:49)<konijn|work>is jday on ? and if not, do you know what his approach is ?
(05:31:59)<konijn|work>drag and drop on iPad/air does not really work
(05:32:06)<konijn|work>so I need something much much simpler
(05:32:13)<randomnine>really?
(05:32:26)<randomnine>actually there's a really simple alternative you could use
(05:32:51)<randomnine>when someone taps on something, automatically move it to the first free slot somewhere it'd go
(05:33:14)<randomnine>i'd have thought drag + drop would be ideal for ipad
(05:36:59)<konijn|work>yes
(05:37:02)<konijn|work>that is what I want
(05:37:05)<konijn|work>nah
(05:37:06)<konijn|work>well
(05:37:11)<konijn|work>ideal for iPad maybe
(05:37:16)<konijn|work>ideal for air not so much
(05:37:19)<konijn|work>it loses the thumb
(05:37:22)<konijn|work>or finger
(05:37:23)<konijn|work>whatever
(05:37:27)<konijn|work>and 
(05:37:36)<konijn|work>for deletion I want to user to tap the deletion icon
(05:37:42)<konijn|work>and then select the item he wants to delete
(05:37:55)<konijn|work>or she
(05:46:12)<jday>konijn: My approach -- and this isn't what I was doing at first, which accounts for part of the slowness -- is to do a complete rewrite, transfering functionality over as I go.  The new inventory is called a bag -- so yes, I'll be able to support the two-tap-drag.
(05:47:23)<konijn|work>awesome
(05:47:28)<konijn|work>and hey
(05:47:32)<konijn|work>dont worry about slowness
(05:47:44)<konijn|work>I am the last to complain :P
(05:58:29)<tametick>jday: i think i rewrite was necessary for the ui code 
(06:14:49)<tametick>"Okay, I've confirmed it. Once you die, your stats get force-reset. So if you had 2 att and +4 att sword, you are now just 2 att WITH the sword. And if you remove the sword your att is -2."
(06:15:06)<tametick>first comment in kong
(06:15:07)<randomnine>tametick: yeah, i fixed that this afternoon
(06:15:12)<tametick>oh cool
(06:15:17)<randomnine>fix is in the repo
(06:15:32)<wl>How did he confirm that bug?
(06:15:33)<tametick>once all that stuff is fixed let's do 1.1d
(06:15:48)<tametick>before adding all the deluxe features 
(06:15:54)<tametick>just to get 1 clean classic version
(06:16:00)<randomnine>mm, that'd be a good point to branch Classic
(06:21:56)<tametick>"I teleported onto a chest and it appeared in my inventory as a chest with name "null" lol"
(06:22:12)<randomnine>hahah
(06:22:19)<randomnine>awesome
(06:22:57)<tametick>also from kong
(06:23:11)<tametick>they are actually giving better feedback than most desktop players
(06:23:48)<wl>There are a lot more players and they have an easy way to give feedback
(06:24:05)<wl>Desktop players might have discovered it, but did not care enough to find out how to submit bugs
(06:24:14)<randomnine>aw man... started a wizard, and the spells on floor 1 were 'fireball' and 'heal'
(06:24:30)<randomnine>but i had to restart 'cause there was a stupid bug i'd just added
(06:24:46)<jday>Having two fireball is magnificent.  That is tragic.
(06:25:51)<randomnine>oh, never mind. first spell i find on *this* run is fireball
(06:35:57)<tametick>some balancing/build comments too: http://www.kongregate.com/games/idoyehi/cardinal-quest/comments
(06:38:02)<wl>Some want a tougher game :o
(06:38:31)<wl>Some guy talking about floor 3 being too hard, I guess he means Dominatrix, those are hard
(06:39:36)<tametick>yep that's not new
(06:39:43)<tametick>been that way since the very beginning 
(06:39:53)<tametick>some people expect nethack, some expect farmville 
(06:41:40)<wl>Btw: Since probably 50% of the comments are about the ui bugs, how long till the new one will be around?
(06:46:41)<jday>wl: Pretty quick.  I'm well again and I have all day.
(06:47:31)<jday>tametick: What do you think about the possibility of making all pluses and minuses relative to intrinsic stats, so +3 spirit will influence the wizard more and +3 speed will help the thief more?
(06:48:12)<wl>Oh didn't know you were sick
(06:48:18)<jday>The other thing we could do, along those lines, is tie spells not to generating classes (not necessarily, anyway) but to generating stats, and generate them proportional to the ranking of those intrinsics.
(06:48:27)<jday>wl: I was trying to get things done anyway, but I was pretty fogged up.
(06:48:59)<wl>I don't like having different boost for different characters
(06:49:16)<wl>3 spirit should be better for the wizard because of his playstyle, not because it gives him more
(06:49:59)<jday>The problem is that he doesn't have an inherent playstyle (except for the changes we make soon to spell distribution, of course) -- you equip him differently, he's different.
(06:51:12)<jday>He starts with 5 times as much spirit as the fighter -- but that's only 4 more, in terms of equipment.  Maybe that's enough to matter, but it seems like (again, without having changed spell drops) you could just equip a fighter like a wizard and have a tougher wizard.
(06:51:27)<tametick>jday: i don't understand what you mean
(06:51:46)<tametick>i like the tying the spells to stats, that makes them more important 
(06:52:10)<wl>And how is that not valid jday?
(06:52:24)<wl>If someone wants to play a fighter that focuses on casting, fine with me
(06:52:37)<tametick>i think so too
(06:52:42)<jday>tametick: We'd still present the stats as +3 or +5 or whatever.  But the actual effect they have would be proportional to your starting stats.  So +5 would always add +100% of your initial spirit.
(06:52:46)<wl>It will always be a bit worse than a wizard, but it should be able to do stuff
(06:52:47)<tametick>i don't think we should take classes too seriously 
(06:53:51)<tametick>i think i agree with wl on that one. we can differentiate classes in better ways imo. if you want to make a casting fighter you can, it just won't be as good as a casting wizard 
(06:55:05)<tametick>as randomnine said before that's the way it is in nethack (and also in crawl now that i think about it)
(06:57:38)<randomnine>i think there is a point where the way the current stats work becomes an issue
(06:57:54)<randomnine>when you have very low speed, -speed spells are brutal
(06:58:09)<wl>Yes
(06:58:14)<randomnine>i think it might be worth moving the baseline for speed up to 5 or so
(06:58:22)<wl>3 speed -3 speed from spider = instadeath atm
(06:58:24)<randomnine>and having monsters have a wider range of speed, so you can't just out-speed everything
(06:58:48)<wl>Sounds good
(06:59:45)<tametick>go for it
(07:00:06)<randomnine>ok, i'll try a quick rebalance soon and put a build out for testing
(07:02:14)<tametick>please op jday & i, wl. i wonder if we can get Q in here to auto op as needed
(07:02:36)<wl>Yes that is possible, you want q?
(07:02:48)<tametick>that would be handy 
(07:02:50)<tametick>thanks
(07:03:02)<wl>There is also an option that everyone can set topics
(07:03:14)<tametick>both are desirable 
(07:03:59)<randomnine>haha
(07:05:16)<jday>I thought Q had population standards?
(07:05:23)<wl>Anything else besides tametick authed and should get a chanlev?
(07:05:27)<wl>It's 4 users
(07:05:48)<wl>Q was the big bot 2 years ago for 50+ and L for small channels, now there is only q
(07:05:54)<tametick>i am not sure what you're asking me wl 
(07:05:57)<jday>randomnine: I'm already planning on changing -3 speed to -50% speed.  Seems better.
(07:06:08)<randomnine>jday: sounds good
(07:06:11)<jday>wl: And yet they never take down the old documentation.
(07:06:13)<wl>I was asking if anyone else here (besides you) has a q account
(07:06:22)<tametick>no clue
(07:06:32)<jday>randomnine: And it would stack if you had lots of spiders, but you'd never go below 1.
(07:06:34)<wl>Well, the persons that have one can step forward :P
(07:07:00)<jday>I have.  I'm not authed at present, is all.
(07:08:52)<wl>I can add you to the autoop list of q if you give me the account name
(07:08:55)<wl>(or auth)
(07:21:48)<jday>The account name -- are you ready to write this down? -- is jday.  I'm authed now so I presume it's no longer an issue.
(07:22:20)<wl>Can you spell that for me?
(07:25:25)<jday>Yeah, sure.  jay ey wye dee ay wye ee wye double-yoo wye ee.  I think that's right.
(07:42:43)<randomnine>changed the logic for how items are equipped/stored in inventory/sold on pickup
(07:43:56)<randomnine>that's pushed... equips the best item and keeps anything pareto optimal
(07:46:11)<tametick>you and your fancy words
(07:46:21)<tametick>you think you're better than us, don't you?
(08:00:54)<randomnine>hehe
(08:01:35)<randomnine>just means that if *one* stat on an item is the highest you've got available for that item slot, it'll keep it
(08:01:46)<randomnine>otherwise it'll discard it 'cause you've got something that's better in every respect
(08:02:29)<tametick>http://www.reddit.com/r/WebGames/comments/lj251/cardinal_quest_classic_previous_payed_version_of/
(08:02:35)<tametick>^ upvote plz
(08:09:19)<konijn|work>done
(08:09:57)<tametick>thanks 
(08:27:49)<jday>tametick: Make it very clear in your comment that everyone who has payed so far gets Deluxe.
(08:28:26)<tametick>done
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/21 +++
(11:32:07)<tametick>konijn: i am debugging an air app on android now and it's not nearly as time or resource consuming as you suggeted 
(11:32:34)<tametick>it take ~9mb and a couple of seconds to build and send to the phone 
(12:04:32)<konijn>wot ??
(12:04:41)<konijn>well you are the lucky one then
(12:04:54)<konijn>the ios build takes forever
(01:13:05)<tametick>there are 2 builds
(01:13:29)<tametick>i was just following the instruction in the text file generated in the FD build
(01:13:48)<tametick>in FD you can select "create  new as3 mobile air project" or something
(01:13:58)<tametick>and they explain everything inside the generated project
(01:14:10)<tametick>it's not working tho, getting just a blank screen on my phone
(01:14:24)<tametick>but at least it's moving the file there and executing it
(01:27:32)<tametick>what did you have to change?
(01:27:47)<tametick>did you also had the same problem, that it transferred to the phone but didn
(01:27:53)<tametick>'t function propertly?
(01:30:55)<konijn|work>ah
(01:30:56)<konijn|work>no
(01:31:09)<konijn|work>it did not transfer ( manual step ), but it always did work
(01:31:38)<tametick>oh
(01:32:14)<tametick>other than displaying a blank screen (which i think is just the result something small i overlooked) it is very slick
(01:32:29)<tametick>press f5 and a couple of seconds later a new version is running on the phone
(01:35:34)<konijn|work>that is awesome
(01:36:22)<konijn|work>I think you can set the load screen with the adt command
(01:36:46)<konijn|work>so I do see a black screen for between half a second and two second while the menu is loading
(01:36:55)<konijn|work>but that's easy to fix
(01:37:24)<konijn|work>maybe I should just get a tablet then
(01:38:55)<tametick>you mean android tablet?
(01:40:32)<konijn|work>yes
(01:40:46)<konijn|work>it's not that expensive
(01:41:01)<tametick>right
(01:41:10)<tametick>this zte blade cost me 115 euros
(01:41:19)<tametick>no contract or anything
(01:43:04)<tametick>also funny that the overhead is so much bigger for ios
(01:43:08)<tametick>in terms of size
(01:43:32)<konijn|work>how big is the build for android ?
(01:43:32)<tametick>it just installed a 8.5mb app called "air" and my app (which is only like 150kb)
(01:43:44)<tametick>and that's the debug
(01:43:53)<tametick>non-debug is like 4-5mb from what i've read
(01:44:03)<konijn|work>-rwx------+ 1 198919 Domain Users 13M Oct 21 09:20 ./bin/CQ.ipa
(01:44:05)<konijn|work>yeah..
(01:44:16)<tametick>13mb isn't bad
(01:44:19)<konijn|work>at least it is less than 20Mb
(01:44:25)<tametick>8mb is the normal cq.swf
(01:44:34)<tametick>so it makes sense, it's just 5mb overhead for you
(01:45:00)<konijn|work>earlier reports of size were because I did not clean the bin directory and so it kept packaging the old ipa in the new ipa
(01:45:18)<konijn|work>Before I realized that I had an ipa in an ipa in an ipa in an ipa
(01:45:24)<konijn|work>:P
(01:45:43)<konijn|work>only when I opened the ipa with 7zip did I realize what was going on
(01:45:55)<tametick>hehe
(01:46:00)<konijn|work>I still wonder why the fd build does not first clean the bin directory
(01:46:31)<tametick>oh right
(01:46:41)<tametick>i also had to manually delete some pngs the first time
(01:47:00)<tametick>but otherwise it was fine 
(01:47:18)<tametick>greetings jonathan3
(01:47:24)<jonathan3>hiya tametick 
(01:47:27)<konijn|work>how's the redit article going ?
(01:47:41)<tametick>didn't get much attention 
(01:47:44)<tametick>but that's ok
(01:48:08)<tametick>jonathan3: i was just telling konijn about my adventures trying to develop on the zte blade 
(01:48:18)<jonathan3>heh
(01:48:21)<tametick>the air for mobiles is really slick
(01:48:32)<tametick>i am having some issues but overall it's really good
(01:48:42)<jonathan3>good to hear! I wasn't sure whether it would work because of flash
(01:48:55)<tametick>you compile on windows and with a press of a button it runs on the phone a couple of seconds later
(01:49:03)<jonathan3>that's pretty awesome
(01:49:04)<tametick>nah it doesn't require flash
(01:49:11)<tametick>it compiles a native app
(01:49:24)<jonathan3>excellent
(01:50:08)<jonathan3>once I get the Android site up, I want to sell it, you hear? :)
(01:51:06)<tametick>hehe
(01:51:29)<tametick>god dammit downloading all those SDks is so slow
(01:51:40)<konijn|work>Fri Oct 21 09:29:35 EDT 2011 about to call adt password: Fri Oct 21 09:32:52 EDT 2011 displaying size -rwx------+ 1 198919 Domain Users 13M Oct 21 09:32 ./bin/CQ.ipa
(01:52:01)<konijn|work>so 3 minutes and a half this time
(01:52:11)<tametick>:o
(01:52:22)<tametick>closer to 3 seconds for me
(01:52:26)<konijn|work>yeah
(01:52:34)<konijn|work>http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/galaxy-tab/GT-P7310MAAXAR-buy
(01:52:40)<konijn|work>this is going to be my new baby
(01:52:41)<tametick>but i am sure something is up konijn
(01:52:50)<tametick>it can't be so much worse on ios
(01:53:44)<tametick>that's more than 3x the price of the phone jonathan3 bought for me :)
(01:54:37)<jonathan3>once I get this indiegogo project up and can raise enough funds, we'll be getting a couple of tablets over here
(01:54:49)<jonathan3>Chris is after a Sony Tablet and I'm after a Eee Transformer
(01:56:04)<tametick>cq's 1st graphics artist has the transformer 
(01:56:08)<tametick>he is really happy with it
(01:56:19)<tametick>it was also the first mobile to run cq :)\
(01:56:39)<jonathan3>There's a demo unit in HMV up the road from me, I keep going in there and playing with it
(01:57:01)<tametick>hehe
(01:57:22)<tametick>reminds me of going to the mall to play the PCs with the color monitors 
(01:57:39)<jonathan3>yep! only all the PCs have been replaced with tablets
(01:58:03)<jonathan3>the only computers I play with in the shops are in the Apple Store :D
(01:58:25)<tametick>i haven't been to an actual computer or game shop in years 
(01:58:34)<tametick>these days you can get everything online
(01:59:00)<jonathan3>I don't bother with game shops any more since digital downloads happened
(01:59:22)<konijn|work>well
(01:59:28)<konijn|work>if you read the faq of adt
(01:59:32)<konijn|work>its like the first question
(01:59:38)<konijn|work>why is it so slow!!!
(02:02:17)<tametick>pff reading faqs
(02:02:24)<tametick>next you suggest i read the manual 
(02:03:39)<jonathan3>real men infer the meaning of things from reading the code
(02:04:17)<tametick>surely you mean the binary file in a hex editor 
(02:05:37)<tametick>if it's good enough for an arm9 it's good enough for me
(02:05:54)<jonathan3>pfft, all you need the hex editor for is to translate it all to assembly
(02:05:55)<jonathan3>by hand
(02:07:15)<tametick>oh it seems it's actually an arm11
(02:07:31)<tametick>it has both an arm11 and an arm9!
(02:08:17)<jonathan3>oh, is it? hmm
(02:08:24)<tametick>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSM7000#MSM7227_and_MSM7230
(02:08:29)<tametick>it has 4 cores
(02:08:39)<jonathan3>oh yeah, a qualcomm processor
(02:08:59)<jonathan3>this phone continues to surprise me
(02:09:13)<tametick>also pretty decent looking gpu
(02:09:54)<tametick>it was funny opening it up and an sdcard dropped, not bigger than my fingernail 
(02:10:00)<tametick>and it hold 2gb :|
(02:10:49)<jonathan3>microSD cards
(02:11:04)<tametick>right
(02:11:18)<jonathan3>and before that kind of storage would take up a room
(02:12:01)<tametick>hrm, is it just the weekend effect or is cq written about somewhere big?
(02:12:12)<tametick>play count on kong is going up pretty rapidly 
(02:12:17)<tametick>over 100k already 
(02:12:31)<tametick>in like 2.5 days 
(02:12:37)<jonathan3>you can get 64GB microSDs although they ain't cheap
(02:12:39)<wl>It's the first week
(02:12:50)<tametick>and just in the past couple of hours it gained several 10s of ks
(02:13:07)<tametick>yeah i know wl but it accelerated quite a bit in the past hour or 2
(02:13:17)<wl>Yeah, that's probably weekend
(02:13:27)<wl>(of the first week)
(02:13:48)<wl>And don't you have access to referers?
(02:13:49)<tametick>i hope they keep it on the front page for a while longer
(02:13:58)<tametick>not on kong
(02:14:10)<tametick>maybe i should have integrated more analytics into the game
(02:14:20)<wl>Hmm, thought they provided that information since it's pretty valuable
(02:14:39)<jonathan3>the thing is with analytics, there's always something else you should have remembered to track
(02:14:43)<tametick>that would be a reason for them not to provide it 
(02:15:01)<tametick>they don't want to reduce my dependency of their services 
(02:17:12)<tametick>http://vomisalabs.blogspot.com/2011/10/retro-redux.html
(02:17:16)<tametick>oh i forgot about this
(02:17:19)<tametick>now i feel bad :(
(02:19:37)<jonathan3>god I've got a million and one things to do before I need to do the million and one things I need to do
(02:19:39)<jonathan3>I need a holiday
(02:24:49)<tametick>i can exploit you guys for retweets, right?
(02:24:51)<tametick>http://twitter.com/#!/tametick/status/127384867498500097
(02:24:59)<tametick>that's what this channel is about anyway :p
(02:25:21)<konijn|work>sure
(02:25:49)<jonathan3>btw what's happening with the deluxe edition? I've been meaning to ask
(02:26:06)<tametick>hopefully ready in a month or 2 
(02:26:37)<tametick>still need to hear from the humble indie bundle guys on when they want to put it up
(02:26:44)<tametick>was thinking to debut it there
(02:26:58)<Ganrao>oh wow, yeah if you put it in that you would get a lot of attention
(02:27:12)<tametick>they originally said mid november but now apparently they've pushed it back to a later bundle
(02:27:14)<jonathan3>see if you can put in a good word for me, I've been leaning on them for a while
(02:27:22)<tametick>sure :)
(02:27:29)<jonathan3>cheers :)
(02:27:34)<tametick>i have very little leverage over them tho jonathan3 
(02:27:41)<tametick>i pretty much do as i'm told 
(02:27:52)<jonathan3>no, I understand
(02:28:32)<jonathan3>it'd just help a bit, is all
(02:28:56)<tametick>for sure :)
(02:29:03)<tametick>i'll do what i can
(02:29:20)<jonathan3>thank you!
(02:29:32)<tametick>what were you think of more specifically? 
(02:29:42)<tametick>*thinking
(02:29:52)<jonathan3>they have said before they're interested in the packages I make
(02:30:03)<jonathan3>although I want to have them put up codes too
(02:30:13)<jonathan3>because I'm working on package repositories
(02:30:24)<tametick>i'll suggest that 
(02:30:43)<jonathan3>thanks :) also it won't be too hard to pull off CQ Deluxe
(02:31:02)<Ganrao>packages?
(02:31:17)<jonathan3>it'd just be a case of renaming the existing version up on the site to Deluxe and creating a new free version
(02:31:28)<jonathan3>Ganrao, yeah, I run Gameolith and make Linux packages
(02:31:35)<Ganrao>oh
(02:32:00)<Ganrao>oh hey, nice
(02:32:37)<jonathan3>I really need to automate it more, but I've got a crapton of things to do
(02:35:22)<konijn|work>is jonathan3 == jday ?
(02:35:44)<jonathan3>probably not
(02:36:00)<konijn|work>not sure huh
(02:36:04)<tametick>no
(02:36:15)<tametick>someone else
(02:36:41)<jonathan3>I'm never entirely sure, especially when good things are happening
(02:36:42)<jonathan3>:P
(02:42:09)<tametick>rebooting
(03:12:45)<konijn|work>so
(03:12:57)<konijn|work>smack with a clue by four if I am wrong
(03:13:20)<konijn|work>but in HxlTileMap we write to cachedTilemapBuffer and then to the screenbuffer
(03:13:40)<konijn|work>but we never actually check to see whether we could use the the tilemapbuffer instead of rewriting it ?
(03:14:09)<konijn|work>could a simple check to see 'hey did anything change lads ?' and then re-use tilemapbuffer be a great way to make the game faster ?
(03:14:26)<konijn|work>plus, we would actually make use of that large bitmap I guess then
(03:16:58)<tametick>that is correct 
(03:17:11)<tametick>but i am pretty sure randomnine was already working on that a couple of days ago
(03:17:16)<tametick>might want to check it out with him
(03:20:49)<randomnine>konijn|work: tiles only get rewritten to the buffer if they're marked dirty
(03:21:08)<randomnine>if nothing's changed, it'll iterate over the visible tiles and do nothing
(03:22:03)<randomnine>i'm not mental... that's the whole reason there's a buffer :p
(03:23:02)<randomnine>you could definitely get a further speedup by adding a 'dirty' flag for the tilemap as a whole
(03:23:22)<randomnine>but only when you're stationary
(03:23:51)<randomnine>i was concerned about worst case framerate tbh, which is always while you're moving, so i didn't go that far
(03:26:47)<tametick>randomnine: that's good performance wise
(03:27:06)<tametick>but remember that konijn is worrying about battery usage on mobile devices 
(03:27:13)<randomnine>yeah, didn't occur to me
(03:27:40)<randomnine>it's a good idea
(03:28:56)<randomnine>in fact, there's a better fix
(03:29:17)<randomnine>when a tile's marked dirty, add it to a dirty list (ideally an embedded linked list, not a List<>)
(03:30:14)<randomnine>then in HxlTilemap.render(), draw all tiles in the dirty list to the buffer
(03:30:30)<randomnine>rather than iterating over all 1024 to check flags
(05:58:37)<randomnine>thought of a good alternative to Heal
(05:59:18)<randomnine>Mend: instantly recovers all health lost over the last x turns
(06:00:09)<wl>You can also change it to a steal life force: deals x damage to enemy and heals life equal to damage done
(06:00:10)<randomnine>or, say, half of all health lost.
(06:00:16)<randomnine>ooh, that's another good one.
(06:22:28)<tametick>vampiric touch should be a separate spell imo
(06:23:00)<tametick>mend can be too. and the original heal can be "regenration" - gain 1hp per turn for x turns (might depend on char level like fireball)
(06:23:27)<tametick>go nuts with spells, that's the most fun part of the game and the easiest to make new graphics for
(06:23:58)<wl>Are there plans to introduce range to spells?
(06:25:01)<tametick>it's not something i care much for or against. if there is a good reason for a spell to have limited range it's not a deal breaker 
(07:02:01)<tametick>http://twitter.com/#!/tametick/status/127447024277794816
(07:32:37)<jday>wl: Some shorter range spells with shorter cooldowns could be nice.
(08:07:38)<jday>wl: One idea, from Lohen I think, that I liked was a spell that would blink you somewhere nearby, guaranteed not to blink you in melee range of any enemy -- and possibly not consuming a turn.
(08:08:27)<jday>And two 'utility' spells I thought of: A spell of recharging, which would have a very long charge time, and which would recharge all other equipped spells immediately.  (We could have special rules for two spells of recharging.)
(08:09:00)<jday>And a 'joker', which would recharge quickly but pick one of your other spells at random to cast.
(08:16:38)<jday>If we're creative, there are many cool things we can make up.  Since spells explain themselves, they're like cards in card games.  They don't have to be really simple.
(08:17:00)<jday>Also, I think I can support dual-wielding, so that might be a cool way to differentiate fighters.
(09:23:09)<tametick>add all that stuff to the list, jday!
(09:24:50)<tametick>also once we run out of bugs remind me to send you guys all the kong reports plus some other stuff
(09:24:59)<tametick>i think there are some minor stuff we overlooked 
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/22 +++
(12:10:12)<Lohen>heyo! didn???t realize my othernick was on here
(12:16:23)<Lohen>Also, I guess you???re aware now of the bug where if you die you lose your bonuses
(12:20:46)<Lohen>http://imgur.com/vUpWV
(12:20:48)<jday>Yeah; I'm ditching the current buff system in my inventory rewrite.
(12:20:59)<Lohen>gotta go
(12:21:21)<jday>That does look like it demands immediate attention, though.
(09:30:19)<jday>My new bag is working correctly; there's a bunch to do still before it's good for a push (I've got one bear of a merge ahead, not least of all)
(09:31:22)<jday>The basic notion now is that you add slots to the bag, and that slots can optionally have a dialog associated with them.
(09:31:41)<jday>You can also add items directly as intrinsics, for the benefit of monsters.
(09:33:08)<jday>Dual wielding is in and working (I get to merging I'll have to work randomnine's pareto optimal selection applying to multiple slots, which is still easy since each slot can still only have one type, and likewise for each item.)
(09:34:02)<wl>:o
(09:35:46)<jday>I had a wizard simultaneously wielding six claymores while I was testing that part.  That amused me rather.
(09:36:43)<jday>I will also be redoing buffs, which plays right into the changes to the bag -- buffs will always be recomputed directly from current effects and current items.  (I'm not sure effects are all that different, anymore, from intrinsic items.)
(09:37:26)<jday>And it looks like there's still room -- unless randomnine has patched it up since my last pull -- to fix up the AI to fight better epic battles against your mirrors and thralls, so that'll be a fun reward when this whole mess is over.
(09:40:08)<jday>And with that all dealt with, I guess we can look at a few final bugs and get 1.1d out the door and go wild on Plus.
(09:52:30)<jday>jonathan3: I missed your initial introduction here.
(09:53:06)<jonathan3>I run Gameolith http://www.gameolith.com
(09:53:14)<jonathan3>I do the Linux packages for Cardinal Quest
(09:53:21)<jonathan3>and sell the Linux version
(09:54:02)<jday>Ah!  I had imagined it was something like that, from what I did see.  A pleasure to meet you, then.
(09:54:51)<jonathan3>same :)
(09:55:12)<jday>It looks like everyone missed my monologue, then, except wl!
(09:56:13)<jday>I think the best part was "a wizard simultaneously wielding six claymores".  Yes, I'm pretty sure of it.
(09:56:39)<jonathan3>any random beheadings involved?
(09:57:20)<jday>You'd think there would have to be.
(09:57:51)<wl>Yes, they all ignored you on purpose! I am the only loyal one here!
(09:58:37)<tametick>morning
(09:59:43)<tametick>jday: before making radical gameplay changes let;s get 1.1d out ok?
(09:59:51)<tametick>so there is a stable Classic release 
(10:00:42)<tametick>you are now officially christened Release Master, your next task is to release 1.1d :p
(10:00:46)<jday>tametick: Absolutely.  The "epic battles" bit is just (a) fixing awareness up so it works on mobs other than the player and (b) adding the los check in for mobs other than the player, since there's no fov to protect them
(10:00:54)<tametick>cool
(10:01:26)<tametick>it's not just wanting to get bugs fixed btw, also to give people as much of a reason to upgrade to deluxe
(10:01:42)<jday>I'm pretty sure if you could keep an elemental charmed in a room it would wipe out every other monster on the level, with time, shooting through walls.
(10:01:51)<tametick>classic is already feature-complete enough to trap them in
(10:01:52)<jday>One big ceremonial sword?  Try six!
(10:02:38)<jonathan3>I know how to handle the deluxe upgrade
(10:03:07)<jonathan3>just rename the existing paid version to Deluxe, and add a new game which is the classic version
(10:04:20)<tametick>right
(10:04:20)<jday>Right!  I'm off to bed to dream of inventory cells.
(10:04:32)<tametick>you already have a demo link tho don't you?
(10:04:39)<tametick>can just make classic the new demo
(10:04:46)<tametick>good night jday 
(10:05:00)<tametick>don't let the ui bugs bite 
(10:05:25)<jonathan3>can do, though it won't upgrade existing users
(10:05:34)<tametick>oh
(10:05:43)<tametick>well you can do whatever you think is best
(10:06:01)<jonathan3>also, I think I've just pulled off the regional variations
(10:06:08)<tametick>\o/
(10:06:33)<jonathan3>so pounds and euros will go up soonish
(10:07:36)<tametick>changed the sys req
(10:07:47)<tametick>now that there are no major leaks anymore
(10:08:09)<jonathan3>good-o
(10:08:12)<tametick>it's actually pretty pessimistic requirements, i am sure it can work well on half as good a system
(10:08:21)<tametick>* Processor: 1ghz
(10:08:22)<tametick>* Memory: 512mb of RAM
(10:08:33)<jonathan3>yeah, it's just taking into account Flash's existence
(10:08:36)<tametick>but i don't have a machine slow enough to test
(10:08:46)<jonathan3>which on Linux, let's just say, is not great
(10:08:57)<tametick>right
(10:38:04)<randomnine>jday: good stuff... the only changes to automatically equipping for dual-wielding will be: try to put an item into either hand instead of just in the one slot; and only automatically discard weapons if you already have *two* that are better in every respect
(10:38:17)<randomnine>which could fill up an inventory pretty fast.
(10:38:35)<wl>Trying to put in either hand does not work, you have to try to put it in the worse hand
(10:38:59)<randomnine>heh. good point
(10:43:09)<randomnine>i guess we'll probably have one-handed and two-handed weapons, which complicates things further.
(10:43:48)<wl>Not really, if he is using a 2 handed right now, then never switch, only put in inventory
(10:44:00)<wl>If he is using dual wield, do not switch to a 2 hand, even if superiot
(10:48:09)<randomnine>still has to discard redundant items in the inventory
(10:48:42)<wl>Yeah
(10:48:53)<randomnine>you're going to have to actively sell stuff much more often
(10:51:58)<tametick>jday: how about making duel wield one of the fighters special perks you choose while leveling up?
(10:53:08)<tametick>i don't know what you guys ended up thinking of the idea. every odd level gained lets you choose a stat to increment by 1, every even lets you choose a doomrl-style skill like +x% stealth or dual wielding 
(10:53:14)<tametick>depending on stats and/or class 
(10:54:29)<tametick>if you don't like it don't be ashamed to say so. deluxe is much more your thing than mine
(10:54:46)<tametick>(you as in all of you not just jday)
(10:54:59)<randomnine>hmm... restricting dual wield so it's sometimes available and sometimes not could work, but it's mostly going to be messy
(10:55:09)<tametick>ok
(10:55:16)<tametick>i'm not married to the idea was just a thought 
(10:55:21)<randomnine>because we need to come up with something to balance buffs on one-handed weapons both with and without dual wielding
(10:55:28)<tametick>maybe the skill can decrease the penelty for the weak hand or something
(10:55:47)<randomnine>but yeah, having *everyone* dual wielding forever is a bit weird
(10:55:57)<randomnine>so something like that's probably necessary
(10:56:11)<tametick>in d&d i believe every character can dual wield but most of them get horrible penelities for it 
(10:56:38)<tametick>and if you got the dual wield perk you get far less severe penalties  
(10:56:55)<tametick>and if you have both ambidextrous and dual wield you get no penalty 
(10:57:03)<wl>Everone can and some classes just get the perks for free
(10:57:10)<tametick>not saying that how we should do it, only explaining how it is in d&d
(10:57:22)<wl>I think there was always a -2 attack penalty on the offhand, even with all perks
(10:57:32)<tametick>might be
(10:57:54)<wl>But better than the -6 and -4 on each hand respectively :P
(10:58:43)<wl>So my opinion about cq: Everyone should be able to dual wield, some classes should ofc be better at it
(10:58:58)<wl>Maybe the wizard will get lots of malus when doing it
(10:59:35)<randomnine>honestly - i think dual wielding is overcomplicated and will probably require overcomplicated solutions to balance
(10:59:49)<tametick>hrm
(10:59:52)<tametick>right
(11:00:07)<randomnine>at most, allow it for entire classes (like, thief) and balance their base stats accordingly
(11:00:44)<tametick>either that or allow it if you get the dual wield skill, which only some classes can get
(11:00:52)<tametick>and even then with penalties 
(11:01:17)<randomnine>mm, possibly. we'd have to offer something equally powerful as an alternative
(11:01:21)<tametick>if we make skills pretty sweet than investing a skill point in dual wielding is already a sacrafice  
(11:01:51)<tametick>there are many ways to balance 
(11:02:05)<tametick>it's ok if 1 class has better skill but worse stats for example 
(11:02:10)<tametick>or worse spells
(11:02:25)<randomnine>tbh it's ok if one class is just flat out better than another
(11:03:00)<tametick>i agree but would be nice if it's not a night and day difference 
(11:03:06)<randomnine>yeah.
(11:03:21)<tametick>if we go that route we can forgo difficulty levels 
(11:03:51)<tametick>cq would be the first rpg-ish game ever where the thief isn't the worse class 
(11:03:51)<randomnine>oh, i thought class selection *was* the difficulty level. :D
(11:04:26)<tametick>it kinda got to be that way but that's more the result of bad balancing than premeditated intention 
(11:04:31)<randomnine>hehe
(11:05:08)<tametick>btw changing the icon for cq really improved people clicking on it in kong
(11:05:16)<randomnine>good to know
(11:05:22)<tametick>compared to the other games in the list 
(11:05:29)<tametick>it's kinda hard to know for sure
(11:07:12)<randomnine>ok, i need to go hit things with hammers for the day
(11:07:51)<randomnine>back tomorrowww
(11:08:32)<tametick>gl hf
(11:43:52)<Lohen>the strangest bug
(11:44:01)<Lohen>I sat down at my computer after waking up
(11:44:07)<Lohen>noticed a link to this
(11:44:11)<Lohen>http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Zx1JDEnrVK8
(11:44:17)<Lohen>when I watched it, it worked fine
(11:44:29)<Lohen>when I fullscreened it, CQ???s dungeon theme started playing
(11:44:31)<Lohen>@_@
(11:44:36)<Lohen>CQ is not open on my computer right now
(11:44:44)<Lohen>oh wait yes it is
(11:44:45)<Lohen>in another tab
(11:44:55)<Lohen>but it doesn???t make any noise when I am on the right tab
(11:45:25)<Lohen>so I have it ???paused??? I guess with the character information screen open
(11:45:30)<Lohen>and it stops the music
(11:45:42)<Lohen>but when I fullscreen another tab in my Chrome browser it starts playing the music again
(01:26:13)<Lohen>Also: hilarious, Blizzard is also moving to a selection-on-level-up system
(01:26:35)<Lohen>old talent system is WoW is destroyed, now every 15 levels you select 1 out of 3 skills and lock out the other 2
(01:26:48)<Lohen>just like I was proposing, but fit to their level 90 cap
(01:27:00)<Lohen>so 6 choices, I was proposing 4
(01:27:18)<Lohen>considering how much shorter CQ is, I think that is acceptable ;)
(01:27:40)<Lohen>http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/203784/world-of-warcraft-class-talent-system
(01:51:21)<Lohen>tametick did you see what I was saying 1.5 hours ago?
(03:19:58)<tametick>Lohen: hi
(03:20:04)<tametick>just got back now
(03:20:43)<tametick>Lohen: i guess flash shares the focus event or something
(05:11:11)<jday>Lohen: Blizzard has also used selection-on-level-up extensively in past games.  It's a slightly overdone system.
(05:11:24)<jday>There's nothing unacceptable about it but that it's bland.
(07:41:16)<Lohen>jday: selection on level up is not the interesting thing abuot it, you always had talent picks on level up
(07:41:25)<Lohen>What is interesting is that you are forced to pick 1 and never look back
(07:41:32)<Lohen>you can???t also take the ones on the same tier
(07:41:34)<Lohen>later on
(07:41:36)<Lohen>unlike before
(07:47:56)<jday>That's exactly the role that different types of items can fill, if we make our items actually do interesting things.
(07:48:14)<jday>We could make it so wizards can wear two rings, fighters can wield two weapons, thieves can -- hell, I don't know, wear two hats or something.
(08:53:25)<jonathan3>maybe I could write a microtransactions API and then we could get into the shady business of hats
(09:07:17)<jday>We're definitely plotting our options for microtransactions on kong and ios.
(09:07:32)<jday>So if that gets traction, you might just want to get in on the action.
(09:07:34)<konijn_>yeah
(09:07:40)<konijn_>in app purchase etc.
(09:07:51)<konijn_>hats though, not sure :P
(09:08:12)<jonathan3>well I have nearly finished a store credit system
(09:09:09)<jonathan3>I'm halfway through the signup process for a mobile payments provider
(09:09:40)<jonathan3>so, there won't be a lot more to do to get microtransactions
(09:12:50)<konijn_>except for ios , you can only do in app purchase through apple store
(09:13:19)<konijn_>well, you can but you must also provide the same purchase possibilities on apple store, and the price of apple store must be equal or lower
(09:13:49)<konijn_>anyway, picking up the kids now
(10:51:44)<joist>I didn't find a single pair of shoes that runthrough >.>
(10:52:17)<jday>We probably want to generate by shuffling a deck.
(10:52:30)<jday>It's just a lot friendlier to casual players that way.
(10:52:46)<joist>yeah
(10:52:55)<joist>possibly a weighted one?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/23 +++
(03:24:44)<konijn__>wow
(03:24:53)<konijn__>soon we'll have more people than rgrd :P
(03:26:37)<jday>I've just plugged dragging back into my new inventory logic.  It actually mostly works still, so that's a relief.  Looks like this evening might be the one.
(03:27:50)<konijn__>nice
(03:36:32)<konijn__>looking forward to see that
(04:14:07)<jday>I'm also thinking that dual wielding for the fighter should go in 1.1d, not be pushed off to plus, since the fighter is chronically underpowered.
(04:51:04)<konijn__>yeah
(04:51:10)<konijn__>fighter is a wuss now
(04:51:21)<konijn__>unless we make it the hardest class per description
(04:51:50)<jday>We really shouldn't.  You have the fewest decisions you're allowed to make -- the hardest should be the class with the most decisions.
(04:52:02)<jday>> Optimal play should be fun play.
(04:53:01)<jday>And I just had a bug with the mouse not registering a mouse up and running around that way was a lot of fun.
(04:53:20)<jday>I think that a realtime mode, with the difficulty tuned way down, will be a lot of fun.
(04:54:30)<konijn__>could be
(05:07:19)<jday>haxe is almost really wonderful; it's lacking just a few things that would clinch it for me.
(05:07:37)<jday>The object literals are good, but I'd like to be able to specify types within them.
(05:14:29)<konijn__>I just wish NME had a bit more community support
(06:32:14)<jday>Dozens and dozens of lines achieving nothing more than a single assignment.  It's amazing, some of it.
(07:17:35)<tametick>morning
(07:21:05)<jday>Morning, tametick!
(07:21:20)<jday>I'm off for a quick walk.  It's nice and foggy.
(07:24:52)<tametick>gl hf
(07:26:27)<tametick>jday: as for fighter, we just just buff his stats a bit. would likely be easier than explaining duel wielding & balancing against it.
(07:26:35)<tametick>but it's your call
(07:44:25)<konijn__>greetings
(07:44:46)<konijn__>I'm doing an all nighter for work
(07:44:51)<konijn__>:P
(07:47:05)<tametick>:O
(07:53:19)<konijn__>upgrade of entire system
(07:53:23)<konijn__>once every 2 years or so
(07:53:26)<konijn__>nothing too bad
(07:53:37)<konijn__>except I get very grumpy around 6.30 AM
(07:53:52)<konijn__>I already warned my guys :P
(07:55:29)<jday>An all nighter for that kind of work?  I was hoping we'd both be at it together.
(07:59:25)<jday>At present, if my left wrist holds up, I'm set to get my version playable and largely identical with the original.
(07:59:32)<jday>So I'm quite excited about that.
(08:05:35)<konijn__>the bagged version right ?
(08:05:53)<jday>Right.
(08:06:19)<jday>Won't look much different except that we can more easily change what slots are available and, of course, the current bugs will all be gone.
(08:06:23)<jday>With luck there won't be any new ones.
(08:06:36)<jday>(Won't take much luck, either -- the code is much shorter.)
(08:07:53)<konijn__>great
(08:08:01)<konijn__>actually really great
(08:34:29)<konijn__>that is like one of the only things that is blocking a mobile version
(08:34:33)<konijn__>on iOS at least
(08:34:41)<konijn__>still havent tried dragging on galaxy tab
(10:14:39)<tametick>i was having trouble with air on my android phone konijn_
(10:14:44)<tametick>seems like the debugger doesn't work
(10:14:53)<tametick>if it works for you give me a shout 
(10:43:55)<tametick>konijn__: you sure the kong api stuff is working?
(10:55:23)<konijn__>hmmmm
(10:55:32)<konijn__>well I could not really test
(10:55:37)<konijn__>but it is so straight forward..
(11:04:32)<konijn__>if you are not getting stats
(11:04:39)<konijn__>then its not working
(11:04:40)<konijn__>are you getting stats ?
(11:04:51)<konijn__>the sum of the classes should be the total games playhed
(11:08:09)<tametick>nope
(11:08:16)<tametick>doesn't seem to be
(11:08:22)<tametick>where do you submit the stats too?
(11:08:34)<tametick>wasn't there supposed to be a url you submit it to or something?
(11:08:36)<tametick>some sort of id?
(11:08:52)<tametick>the game url is here: http://www.kongregate.com/games/idoyehi/cardinal-quest
(11:56:58)<konijn__>nah
(11:57:03)<konijn__>it works with the flash vars 
(11:57:09)<konijn__>which are generated by kong as it loads the page
(11:57:19)<konijn__>or generates the page really for the user
(11:59:44)<tametick>ok
(11:59:54)<tametick>btw we can see deluxe via kong using their kreds system
(12:03:45)<konijn__>interesting
(12:37:46)<tametick>*sell
(12:56:03)<jday>Ok.  I'm going to sleep.  The current status is good -- I still have to merge a bunch of special case cell logic (since it's basically all the same stuff repeatedly) and tie it into the bag correctly.
(12:56:20)<jday>But everything is now running through my version of stuff instead of being some weird hybrid.
(01:23:37)<konijn__>weight a minute
(01:23:44)<konijn__>you've been up through the night ?
(01:23:50)<konijn__>that's pretty crazy
(01:30:12)<jday>konijn: Yeah.  When I'm making good progress it seems like a waste to break it, especially if I'm not sure how the next day will be.
(01:30:36)<jday>And I feel the need to get this out pretty intensely -- not least because I'm sure we'd all like to start getting mobile revenue.
(01:31:09)<jday>Ok.  Actually off to sleep now.
(01:35:13)<tametick>good night!
(01:35:18)<tametick>sounds good jday 
(01:35:52)<joist>konijn__: you don't sometimes get sucked into something and stay up all night?
(01:55:53)<konijn__>joist
(01:55:56)<konijn__>rarely :P
(01:56:03)<konijn__>only go-lives like tonight really
(01:56:08)<konijn__>anyway
(01:56:12)<konijn__>its been a looong day
(01:56:15)<konijn__>to bed now
(01:56:18)<joist>lol
(05:56:28)<jday>Good morning.
(06:03:42)<jonathan3>Good evening.
(06:21:27)<tametick>o/
(06:50:00)<tametick>jday: just fwd'd you a crashing bug
(06:50:05)<tametick>but a very rare one i think
(06:52:34)<jday>Looks very likely that someone reintroduced the game-winning victory crash, since that's what used to cause this.
(07:00:50)<tametick>he is playing the version i gave him on oct 12th
(07:00:52)<tametick>11 days ago
(07:00:56)<tametick>a bit pre 1.1c
(07:02:18)<jday>Eleven days -- had we fixed the ending yet?
(07:05:32)<wl>To the logs!
(07:06:13)<wl>13.10.: end game bug was still in the pre-release
(07:07:26)<tametick>:)
(10:40:56)<tametick>once we have 1.1d out i think i should put the mac version on the mac app store 
(10:51:08)<jonathan3>games will start selling in pounds and euros tomorrow
(10:59:39)<tametick>awesome :)
(11:47:32)<jonathan3>oh, another minor change is that there's an account credit system
(11:47:50)<jonathan3>revenue from sales will start going into that
(11:48:04)<jonathan3>and I'll add withdrawal facilities soon
(11:48:12)<jonathan3>though I need to get past my company accounts first
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/24 +++
(12:34:25)<Lohen>status: Married
(12:34:28)<Lohen>:)
(12:34:34)<Lohen>and back to class etc...
(12:34:50)<jonathan3>level up!
(12:35:01)<Lohen>:D
(12:35:03)<jonathan3>congrats!
(12:35:07)<Lohen>thanks
(01:09:40)<Lohen>wow. Missile Command
(01:09:42)<Lohen>http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/narrative-mechanics
(01:09:52)<Lohen>everyone should see this
(02:00:03)<konijn_>hey hye
(02:00:13)<konijn_>I saw tameticks tweet about air/android
(02:01:02)<jonathan3>he'll probably be back in a bit
(02:03:13)<jonathan3>there he is
(02:03:28)<tametick>o/
(02:03:49)<konijn_>greetings
(02:03:58)<konijn_>what happened with your phone and air ?
(02:04:12)<konijn_>is it acknowledged by Adobe as a non-supported device
(02:04:17)<konijn_>or something else ?
(02:04:27)<tametick>no 
(02:04:42)<tametick>no acknowledgment or any official info 
(02:04:51)<konijn_>ouch
(02:04:56)<konijn_>crash logs ?
(02:05:01)<tametick>yep
(02:05:13)<konijn_>readable or utterly useless ?
(02:05:15)<tametick>also, when trying to install air from the market it says my device is not supported 
(02:05:22)<konijn_>oh
(02:05:23)<konijn_>well then
(02:05:36)<konijn_>that kind of makes sense then
(02:05:39)<tametick>basically they say a bunch of native methods are not implemented 
(02:06:32)<jonathan3>...wow, that's daft
(02:07:02)<jonathan3>I thought you had it all working and everything
(02:07:11)<tametick>i thought so too
(02:07:23)<tametick>it is running the app, just displaying a blank black screen
(02:07:36)<jonathan3>argh
(02:07:38)<tametick>i thought it was just some minor config issue or something
(02:08:04)<tametick>but apparently it crashes due to non-implemented native methods in air or something 
(02:08:20)<jonathan3>wonder what they are
(02:09:19)<tametick>a bunch of them
(02:09:49)<tametick>fuck, why did they decide to break chrome a couple of weeks back?
(02:10:04)<tametick>now it always ignores the first letter of search if it begins with a
(02:10:11)<tametick>'a'
(02:10:36)<tametick>jonathan3: http://forums.adobe.com/message/3987114#3987114
(02:10:58)<tametick>there are pastebins with the logs there that says what's missing
(02:10:58)<jonathan3>chrome craps a brick on this machine if I open more than 25 tabs
(02:11:21)<jonathan3>hmm
(02:13:21)<jonathan3>I woulder if it would be possible to substitute some of these functions
(02:17:06)<jonathan3>from a little bit of googling around, this actually seems like some sort of library error
(02:22:26)<jonathan3>tametick, from the sounds of it, AIR isn't installed properly. As you can't find AIR in the Market, try this fairly dodgy site http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=adobe%20air%203.0%20android%20apk&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fandroid-softwares.blogspot.com%2F2011%2F10%2Fadobe-air-300408-apk.html&ei=jG-lTvibFsLP4QTrkPzOBA&usg=AFQjCNH2r2BJ-eBvgifCLyiAmBv8GMFTLQ
(02:22:40)<tametick>jonathan3: i can find air in the market
(02:22:50)<tametick>it says it's not compatible with my device 
(02:22:58)<tametick>i installed it via the air sdk
(02:23:04)<jonathan3>that's fine, just download and install the APK manually
(02:24:06)<jonathan3>now, my phone battery is dying so I will be going offline soon
(02:24:29)<tametick>i already have it install jonathan3, via the air sdk on my computer
(02:24:44)<tametick>it can install it on the phone via usb debugging
(02:24:52)<tametick>but i will try yours too
(02:25:09)<jonathan3>kk
(02:26:17)<tametick>looks like some sort of recursive download link
(02:26:24)<tametick>it only points to the html page it is on :P
(02:29:24)<jonathan3>poo, it's a google redirect
(02:29:29)<jonathan3>accidentally pasted it in
(02:31:17)<jonathan3>http://android-softwares.blogspot.com/2011/10/adobe-air-300408-apk.html
(02:31:19)<jonathan3>maybe this will work better
(02:48:35)<tametick>it's turtles all the way down
(02:48:43)<tametick>nothing on that page except links to itself
(02:51:45)<jonathan3>ugh, I have to go
(02:51:50)<tametick>bye
(02:51:56)<jonathan3>I'll be back later
(02:52:01)<tametick>see ya
(02:52:01)<jonathan3>tell me if anything's broken
(04:14:01)<konijn_>and I'm back again
(04:14:05)<konijn_>like a long lost friend
(04:14:09)<konijn_>:P
(04:19:40)<randomnine>\o/
(06:09:20)<tametick>o/
(06:10:21)<tametick>jday: how's the battle on the gui front going?
(06:17:26)<randomnine>hey man - i have literally everything split out to text files except for the credits screen and the two help overlays (main screen, inventory) from in game, since they're baked into graphics. should i just send the translators those images and ask them to provide translations of the image text for the images to be redone?
(06:21:10)<tametick>no worries randomnine 
(06:21:23)<tametick>we're not going to do the translations before deluxe anyway
(06:27:52)<tametick>we'll have to redo these at some point for another reason too - it's a pain in the butt to modify right now
(06:28:02)<tametick>but it's not that urgent 
(06:28:51)<tametick>randomnine: if you can find out the solution to the very mysterious bug number 2 that would be great
(06:28:59)<tametick>as it makes the game unplayable
(06:29:15)<tametick>but happens really rarely. apparently only when the game runs in the browser 
(06:30:33)<tametick>but even if you can't reproduce it maybe you can search if anywhere in the code there is a way it can happen. basically we use a function from flixel called follow(...) on the player. maybe it isn't called in some situations or is unfollowed somewhere
(06:31:31)<tametick>or the follow function itself might be faulty. it's a pain in the butt to figure out since it's not easy to reproduce but maybe you can see if there is some logical error that you can detect there somewhere 
(07:01:34)<tametick>well there goes nothing: http://ideas.adobe.com/ct/ct_a_view_idea.bix?c=9D564F43-979A-4E35-AA21-85A61B6AB8DE&idea_id=AA30D3A0-01DA-482E-AFCB-D2F0C1DD9607
(07:11:00)<konijn_>upvoted
(07:22:57)<randomnine>tametick: hmm. okay. i'll have a poke
(07:23:07)<randomnine>is the kongregate build secured or encrypted in any way?
(07:39:35)<randomnine>how exactly do you make an equivalent build
(07:42:47)<tametick>randomnine: kong-haxe
(07:43:01)<randomnine>ok, thanks
(07:43:07)<tametick>there is such a directory, in it you can execute haxe build.xml
(07:43:22)<tametick>and it copies ../bin/cq.swf
(07:43:35)<randomnine>cool.
(07:43:52)<tametick>so you should have the base cq running in another FD instance 
(07:44:29)<tametick>also, should have standAlone = false in Configuration.hx
(07:44:59)<randomnine>ok
(08:26:13)<jday>tametick: (If you come back shortly) -- I've been taking care of laundry and such and I'm free now.  Things are going ok; I got a little hung up moving the use item logic off of the buttons.
(08:27:55)<tametick>jday: i have something to tell you that will blow your mind
(08:28:34)<konijn_>hmm
(08:28:52)<konijn_>his mind alone ?
(08:28:58)<tametick>mostly his
(08:29:12)<tametick>kong doesn't want an air app for their android app
(08:29:17)<tametick>they want a FLASH app
(08:29:29)<konijn_>wot ????????
(08:29:30)<tametick>so basically, make the game work at 320x480
(08:29:32)<tametick>done
(08:29:37)<konijn_>awsome!!!!
(08:30:00)<tametick>well if we want to sell it we probably still want a native looking app
(08:31:08)<konijn_>yeah
(08:31:14)<konijn_>but for your wallet this is great news
(08:33:45)<jday>Hooray!
(08:34:34)<jday>Doesn't change much of what needs doing, of course.
(08:47:28)<tametick>jday: well don't have to mess with air for android for one
(08:47:38)<tametick>believe me it's a pain
(08:47:49)<tametick>been messing around with it all the weekend
(08:47:56)<tametick>at the end decided on going nme
(08:48:08)<tametick>just managed to get an nme demo working on my zte blade a couple minutes ago
(08:53:34)<konijn_>great
(08:53:39)<konijn_>windows compile ?
(08:54:46)<tametick>compiled with windows and running on the actual phone 
(08:54:57)<tametick>it's compiling with g++ tho so it's pretty slow
(08:55:08)<tametick>but once it's done it transfers it to the phone in a couple of seconds 
(08:55:25)<tametick>so i think with incremental compilation it won't be too bad 
(08:55:39)<tametick>pretty much the same as a c++ project on the desktop
(09:40:30)<jday>Did you ever play Chip's Challenge, tametick?
(09:58:36)<tametick>no
(09:58:53)<tametick>i just got that block rogue game, gonna give it a twirl 
(10:46:42)<jonathan3>gameolith indiegogo campaign up http://igg.me/p/45927?a=276200&i=shlk
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/25 +++
(07:22:41)<tametick>"@tametick really enjoying playing a Thief in Cardinal Quest. Got to level 5 and into a brownish dungeon but I was double teamed by skeletons"
(07:22:46)<tametick>we got skeletons?
(07:23:03)<jday>I'm just pleased that he's enjoying a thief!
(07:23:11)<jday>I put a lot of thought into my contribution to that.
(07:23:38)<jday>Maybe he means elementals?  Or ape golems?
(07:23:57)<jday>(I probably will reflavor apes to golems, and as a joke leave one of them as an Ape Golem.  I kind of like the sound of that.)
(07:24:39)<tametick>hehe
(07:24:45)<tametick>a golem made of ape flesh?
(07:25:11)<tametick>just got an answer from popcap
(07:25:40)<jday>A good answer?
(07:26:50)<tametick>yep! he asked how much kong payed 
(07:27:34)<jday>You tipped your hand!  But it's only fair, and it's cool of him to be open about it.
(07:27:55)<jday>And since it was your plan, anyway -- !
(07:28:14)<tametick>http://i.imgur.com/cnJgR.png
(07:28:44)<tametick>might still get away with more than the $6k
(07:29:08)<tametick>it's true, they payed $12k for the flash version and $6k for android
(07:29:35)<jday>Clever, clever!
(07:29:45)<tametick>i can send him another message saying that for ios alone we can say $9k
(07:29:51)<tametick>what do you think?
(07:30:29)<jday>I don't mind having konijn net more than I do.  I can survive with what I'm making -- very easily, in fact -- and off my investment share.
(07:30:49)<tametick>i am pretty sure you would get more than him over all
(07:30:52)<jday>And given that iOS is a bigger platform and that we're only selling classic, it seems great.
(07:31:04)<tametick>because of the %5 overall share from the 8bitfunding
(07:36:13)<tametick>i suspect having kongregate and popcap distributing our free versions would mean more in the long run than $15k. but money off the bat is worth a lot more than maybe some money in the future
(07:37:09)<jday>I'm perfectly happy with money off the bat.  My wife any I live very cheap, we have savings, and we have her university stipend.
(07:37:17)<jday>I love that this is turning, however briefly, into a career.
(07:37:33)<tametick>hehe
(07:37:50)<tametick>maybe you'll be surprised how much it makes in the market :)
(07:37:51)<jday>I worked for a month before we moved to San Diego, and that will fund us for something like half a year.
(07:38:03)<tametick>while we have some competition on ios there is very little of it on android
(07:38:12)<tametick>heh
(07:38:19)<tametick>oh you live in san diego now?
(07:38:26)<tametick>smart move, winter-wise
(07:38:39)<jday>Although we blew a lot of it on a violin.  Yeah, she's a PhD student at UCSD.
(07:38:46)<tametick>cool
(07:38:51)<tametick>i try to live cheaply too
(07:38:56)<tametick>traveling expenses do me in 
(07:39:17)<tametick>because i try to go to a few game jams and meetup per year, and those are normally abroad 
(07:39:58)<tametick>but still i'm easily living on <$25k including all the traveling 
(07:40:52)<tametick>and a bunch of that was stuff like paying for music and graphics & buying a laptop for cq
(07:41:15)<tametick>which i'm glad i did because my old one shows signs of dying 
(07:41:42)<tametick>so i am on the netbook right now (it's a high end netbook as far as these things go, but still slower than my 2008 "real" laptop)
(07:42:32)<jday>I really need to get another gig for my netbook.  I meant to when I got it originally, but somehow forgot.
(07:42:35)<tametick>i would say the 8 bit funding money more or less went completely to cover development expenses beyond my own time
(07:42:48)<tametick>i'm on 2gb myself
(07:43:03)<tametick>would love to go 4 now that my main machine might not be here for much longer
(07:43:18)<tametick>it's pretty dirt cheap these days 
(07:43:27)<tametick>hopefully it supports it
(07:46:12)<jday>Mine doesn't.  Two will be my limit.
(07:48:03)<tametick>the only thing that really breaks it for me is running ubuntu in a VM for the linux builds
(07:48:08)<tametick>otherwise 2gb is enough
(07:49:13)<tametick>i got an email from someone local-ish about a board game he invented 
(07:49:19)<tametick>seems pretty interesting 
(07:49:45)<tametick>at any rate looks like something with potential but i'll have to dig in deeper to see if that's really the case
(06:54:15)<tametick>randomnine, jday: any rough plan of when we want 1.1d out?
(06:54:34)<tametick>would be cool to have it when classic is still getting plenty of plays on kongregate 
(06:57:30)<jday>I'm going for asap.
(06:57:42)<jday>Got one more chunk of refactoring done last night.
(06:57:52)<tametick>cool
(06:58:14)<jday>Today I'll be slicing the remaining inventory code in half (or less), and should finally be able to get to merging.
(06:58:26)<jday>Although I've been optimistic before and then noticed new rabbit holes.
(06:58:31)<tametick>hehe
(06:58:39)<tametick>but it's going forward 
(06:58:44)<tametick>that's the important thing
(10:09:11)<randomnine>tametick: realistically i think in a couple days would be appropriate. there are still quite a few minor bugs to squash
(10:10:27)<tametick>no worries 
(10:33:48)<jday>randomnine: Just bouncing this structure off you that's evolved naturally as I've chopped away at the ui.
(10:34:35)<jday>Starting from the bag, which every actor has, there are slots.  A slot is optionally associated with a cell, which is a HxlGroup that actually exists in the interface.
(10:35:15)<jday>An item goes in a slot.  If the slot has a cell, the item will then have a proxy created which represents it in the user interface (with the slightly larger icon demanded by the ui).
(10:35:51)<jday>So a proxy goes in a cell and an item goes in a slot; item <-> proxy as cell <-> slot; slots go in bags.
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/26 +++
(08:55:10)<randomnine>jday: sounds good
(08:55:53)<jday>A few other changes to mention before I go to bed -- you activate an item (or, of course, a spell), rather than having the host of use/useon methods in CqActor.
(08:56:29)<jday>And there's just been a huge amount of duplicated or nearly-duplicated code to pore over and trim.
(08:59:53)<randomnine>cool :)
(09:00:35)<randomnine>as part of the forthcoming merge - i changed all text strings in the game to go through Resources.getString() which lifts them from strings.txt
(09:00:40)<randomnine>to support translations
(09:01:38)<randomnine>that (naturally) led to a lot of minor changes everywhere, so i'm sure it'll come up.
(09:02:34)<jday>Undoubtedly.  My changes touch everything, yours touch everything -- it's not a very good merge tool, either, by default.  So it'll be a process in itself.
(09:02:42)<jday>But that's ok.
(09:02:51)<jday>For the moment, I need to get to bed.
(09:03:40)<randomnine>cool. g'night :D
(09:04:05)<randomnine>i'm gonna get breakfast and fix whatever jerk non-UI bugs there are left
(01:45:36)<randomnine>lol - the effect text was randomly losing queued text whenever there was more than one string queued and waiting for display
(01:45:55)<randomnine>(eg - you use Berserk while waiting for something else, you're damaging a monster)
(01:46:47)<randomnine>no wonder we were losing notifications like buffs running out, sleep running out, etc... if there are a couple things going on already, there's only a 50% chance the notification will ever show
(01:46:51)<randomnine>fixed now.
(01:47:31)<randomnine>think i'm mostly out of non-UI bugs
(08:52:23)<randomnine>balance changesssss
(09:02:32)<tam_>\o/
(09:02:43)<tam_>what's the gist of them?
(09:02:55)<tam_>should we get some more dudes in here for play testing?
(09:03:06)<randomnine>nothing major
(09:03:26)<tametick>easier? harder?
(09:03:26)<randomnine>character/monster speeds all (roughly) doubled
(09:03:35)<randomnine>potion durations and so on changed to compensate
(09:03:41)<tametick>ok
(09:03:43)<randomnine>Berserk now recharges off Attack instead of Spirit
(09:03:53)<randomnine>a few minor tweaks to Fighter's starting stats
(09:04:01)<tametick>wait, aren't we holding off all these changes till after 1.1d?
(09:04:02)<randomnine>and, more starting HP
(09:04:21)<jday>A few of them will help classic without being obvious.
(09:04:23)<tametick>if it's mostly balance tweaks that fine i guess
(09:04:27)<tametick>yeah 
(09:04:39)<tametick>deluxe is more about adding more shiny stuff
(09:04:42)<randomnine>yeah, that was my line of thinking. it's not obvious changes or new stuff
(09:06:49)<randomnine>oh, and when you get a new item/level up
(09:06:53)<randomnine>it now shows you the stats change
(10:00:06)<tametick>what do you guys feel about removing the wait key?
(10:00:19)<tametick>it will make battle a bit more tactical i think
(10:05:02)<Nukm>would feel like an artificial barrier, but yes, you would have to put a bit more thought in how you move
(10:05:29)<Nukm>i also spam wait when i want a cooldown to end
(10:18:35)<tametick>it would only feel artificial becuase you've played the game with wait
(10:18:40)<tametick>and other roguelikes
(10:18:48)<tametick>there is no intrinsic reason to have it
(10:19:41)<wl>The reason would be that humans generally can not only walk, but also stand still
(10:22:16)<tametick>humans generally don't berserk to gain +3 speed and chance to hit
(10:22:40)<wl>Some do
(10:22:42)<tametick>i don't really care much for realism in games like cq
(10:23:00)<wl>Well, I was jsut stating why people might expect a wait function
(10:23:20)<tametick>i think they are much more likely to expect it becuase it exists in other games
(10:23:32)<tametick>why don't they expect the character to need to go to the bathroom? 
(10:24:00)<wl>Like every good hero, he went behind a bush before entering the dungeon
(10:24:16)<tametick>what about leveling up suddenly after killing x monsters? not realistic at all 
(10:24:46)<tametick>suddenly all your wounds are mended and you can suffer more blows before dying 
(10:24:59)<tametick>and 1 monster before that there was no change 
(10:25:01)<wl>That's just the discretization of your continous efforts
(10:25:05)<wl>Hmm, the healing thing, hmm
(10:25:34)<tametick>teh game is not realistic, admit it. not having wait is a much smaller offense to common sense than many of the game's other mechanics 
(10:25:37)<wl>Yes
(10:25:44)<wl>The point was though: You can move
(10:25:51)<wl>SO why can't you stand?
(10:26:01)<tametick>because it makes the game less fun!
(10:26:08)<tametick>;)
(10:26:10)<wl>There is no way to go to the bathroom, because nothing like it is implemented
(10:26:33)<tametick>it doesn't matter. if it's the right decision people will get used to it
(10:26:36)<wl>But walking around is, standing still is in the same bag, so it is probably expected
(10:27:02)<wl>Yeah, I was just stating a reason
(10:27:03)<tametick>i still think it is expected a lot more due to experience with other games than due to extrapolating from reality 
(10:27:26)<wl>No idea, have to ask people that haven't played rl before
(10:30:26)<wl>Btw: Removing a common feature should only happen with good reason
(10:30:47)<tametick>i would argue the opposite 
(10:30:48)<wl>And I'm not sure I follow the more fun argument
(10:31:47)<tametick>removing a feature should be the default if you don't have a good reason to keep it. and more importantly you should only add a feature if you have a really good reason to do so but should remove one without hesitation 
(10:32:20)<wl>Yes on the adding part
(10:32:26)<tametick>the fun part being adding more tactical depth to your movement 
(10:32:38)<wl>Yeah, I'm not seeing that
(10:32:39)<tametick>you need to time your movement with the monsters', otherwise you get hit first
(10:32:50)<tametick>you can't just wait a turn to let them get near you
(10:32:56)<wl>Instead of waiting I have to walk away/in circles a lot to get to the same thing
(10:33:08)<tametick>nope, you are quite often not able to do that 
(10:33:09)<wl>Not seeing where the fun comes from
(10:33:23)<tametick>try it
(10:33:26)<wl>Maybe I just need to try it, but I'm still doubting it
(10:33:27)<tametick>play without waiting
(10:33:27)<jday>Without discrete timing I'm not sure it would be much of a limitation.
(10:34:01)<tametick>what do you mean jday? but there is discrete timing 
(10:34:34)<jday>I really mean timing where everything is a simple fraction (1, 1/2, 1/3) of you.
(10:34:52)<jday>Since we don't have that, there's always a number of steps you can take where they'll either lose or gain a step -- which is equivalent to waiting.
(10:34:52)<tametick>the vast majority of monsters are more or less your speed
(10:35:09)<wl>"more or less"
(10:35:18)<tametick>more or less == similar enough
(10:35:22)<jday>The tiny difference is what I meant by my imprecise "not discrete".
(10:35:27)<wl>And you can find a +1 speed item very quickly
(10:36:05)<jday>If there's a monster two steps to your right and you walk towards it, it hits you.  If you walk away, it follows.  Walk away again, it pauses.  Now you walk towards it and it closes the space for you.
(10:36:12)<jday>If you need extra steps, you can take them.
(10:36:19)<tametick>sometimes 
(10:36:23)<tametick>not always 
(10:36:49)<tametick>i think having more dense levels would help there too
(10:37:10)<tametick>either by making them smaller or by increasing the number of monsters in them
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/27 +++
(04:29:49)<jday>Can someone remind me what presently happens to the charge indicator on a spell when you start to drag it?  (Or does it disappear the moment the inventory screen comes up?)
(08:24:43)<randomnine>jday: haven't dragged spells in a while cause it consistently breaks XD
(08:25:07)<randomnine>okay... the *first* time you open the inventory screen, raising the help overlay, charge indicators disappear until your next move.
(08:25:27)<randomnine>on subsequent times, charge indicators remain on the spells.
(08:25:37)<randomnine>when you drag a spell out of a slot, the charge indicator *stays on that slot*
(08:26:16)<randomnine>drag the spell back to that slot and close the inventory and the charge indicator remains in the state it was previously, and the spell now displays halfway across the screen instead
(08:26:55)<randomnine>RESTART GAME
(08:27:16)<tametick>:O
(08:27:22)<randomnine>open inventory, clear overlay, close inventory, use spell, drag spell from spell slot to inventory
(08:27:28)<randomnine>charge indicator remains on spell slot
(08:27:32)<jday>randomine: Thank you!  In fact, I wonder whether those were a big part of what was causing the breaking.  They survived in their original form until just now in my rewrite.
(08:27:37)<randomnine>drag spell to *another* spell slot
(08:27:42)<jday>I'm sure that noticing that would have saved some trouble.
(08:27:47)<randomnine>charge indicator now shows on *both* spell slots, including the empty one
(08:28:23)<randomnine>basically, it's all massively fucked
(08:29:26)<jday>I love how many branches there are that work like this:  if (a) { f(); g(); } else { f(); g(); }
(08:29:48)<jday>I get through rewriting something to understand it more clearly and then facepalm.
(08:29:54)<randomnine>yeah, there's a lot of redundant code. i've seen a few bugs that are just down to calling a function twice
(08:30:29)<randomnine>haha
(08:30:39)<randomnine>okay, it gets better
(08:30:56)<tametick>hehe
(08:31:02)<randomnine>drag charging spell from first spell slot to *fifth* inventory slot
(08:31:07)<randomnine>drag it back to second spell slot
(08:31:10)<tametick>i'll bet that made sense in some weird way a few rewrites ago
(08:31:16)<randomnine>charge indicators now show on *fifth* spell slot and second
(08:32:01)<jday>tametick: Undoubtedly!  I'm sure someone made something much more rational by merging a couple of functions that were different, but then didn't tie up the loose ends.
(08:32:29)<randomnine>i now have a spell showing its charge indicator on four different spell slots simultaneously, and displaying halfway across the screen
(08:33:01)<tametick>most likely 
(08:35:05)<randomnine>hahah
(08:35:07)<randomnine>pick up second spell
(08:35:14)<randomnine>move first spell into second inventory slot and back to first spell slot
(08:35:20)<randomnine>both spells now display first spell's charge indicator
(08:35:32)<randomnine>casting either spell now casts first spell
(08:38:10)<randomnine>anyway, yeah, all kinds of crazy.
(08:39:29)<jday>It's very useful to know.  I get it into a state where the code seems to mean that it'll do something like that, and I do a double take.  "Did I screw up moving this code around?-- I could have sworn..."
(08:41:46)<tametick>your heroic efforts do not go unappreciated :)
(08:45:28)<jday>They could stand to be a little faster, though. :/
(09:22:47)<jday>There are lots of little things to rave about in haxe, though.  I've observed a few that I don't like -- and those are only because my expectations were lifted pretty high.
(09:23:32)<jday>I'm liking the way it handles properties, for instance.
(09:37:19)<tametick>yeah it's quite a nice language 
(09:37:30)<tametick>fixes a lot of the annoyances with as3 
(09:38:20)<tametick>the creator is also pretty approchable, if you message him there is a good chance you can change his mind about some stuff that's bothering you
(09:38:33)<tametick>or perhaps get an explanation of why he did it that way :)
(09:39:15)<tametick>ncannasse at motion-twin dot com
(09:44:50)<tametick>jday: btw there is also a pretty good #haxe channel on freenode
(10:52:09)<jday>At this point, spell has almost entirely merged with item in my code -- just different equip slots.  I'm tempted to take it the rest of the way.
(10:53:09)<jday>The only thing spells have that is special at the moment is their charge level; I already accounted for the case where we'll want targeted consumables.
(10:53:49)<jday>There are so many cool options for that for plus, it's just exciting.  Traps, bombs, poison darts, scrolls.
(11:01:46)<randomnine>:D
(11:21:21)<randomnine>just worked out a metric for how dangerous enemy types are in a spreadsheet
(11:21:32)<randomnine>minotaurs are about 6 times as deadly as everything else
(11:21:51)<wl>How do Dominatrix look?
(11:29:13)<randomnine>they're reasonably balanced. 'course, this doesn't take account of spells
(11:31:13)<randomnine>i'm weakening succubi and toughening kobolds a bit
(11:38:47)<wl>succubi were mostly fine, just the Dominatrix one seemed to hit pretty hard
(11:45:12)<randomnine>oh, right
(11:45:22)<randomnine>she was 50% faster than the rest so hit that much more often
(11:45:48)<randomnine>with my tweaks to speed that's only 25% faster now
(11:47:58)<randomnine>biggest change is just making it so minotaurs can't one-hit-kill from full health
(11:48:38)<randomnine>though i've got some other ideas on that front, so i might put their damage back up in a bit
(12:09:53)<randomnine>...i wonder. if you stockpike Coca-Leaf Cocktails, can you actually hit about a speed of 30 just by downing them all at once?
(12:13:46)<randomnine>...yup.
(12:14:02)<randomnine>and every speed buff increases the number of turns all the speed buffs last for
(12:15:57)<randomnine>oh, great. and now i've got a bug that means i can't pick up items
(12:16:16)<randomnine>jday: sooner you merge in your changes, the sooner we can wipe 80% of the bug list :D
(12:20:29)<randomnine>for some reason 'null' is getting into the inventory grid cells array
(12:20:53)<randomnine>i suspect when items are destroyed
(12:22:07)<randomnine>welp. that was a good run. ended by minotaurs being massive, massive jerks
(12:23:10)<randomnine>oh, i forgot to apply the minotaur balance changes. lol
(01:05:52)<tametick>randomnine: did you see to that null-ing upon death bug?
(01:06:01)<tametick>that removed your equipment bonuses?
(01:07:12)<tametick>also, konijn_: kong api is not working. must be something really minor
(01:07:22)<tametick>would be great if you could take a look before 1.1d
(01:38:03)<randomnine>tametick: yeah, fixed that last week
(01:38:14)<tametick>cool
(01:43:54)<tametick>from experience we'd need to monitor feedback after the release for a couple of days and possibly do some quick fixes
(01:44:09)<tametick>actually considering the amount of change you might as well label it 1.2
(01:44:34)<tametick>and there will likely be a 1.2b, there's always some trivial bug slipping by :)
(01:44:50)<tametick>especially in releases that change so much internal stuff
(01:45:23)<randomnine>well, once jday's stuff is in we can do a couple days QA/bughunting
(01:46:03)<tametick>i'm heading out now, be back in an hour or so
(03:59:20)<randomnine>made different classes have different stats preferences when auto-equipping items, let's see how this shakes out...
(04:07:26)<randomnine>hehe... wizards are biased now to far prefer +spirit boosts, and i put +1 spirit on the staff (removing 1 spirit from base stats to compensate)
(04:07:42)<randomnine>imagine my surprise when he equips the first weapon he finds...
(04:08:02)<randomnine>'course, it's a Magical Long Sword with +1 spirit, so naturally it just outclassed the staff entirely.
(04:11:08)<randomnine>first item set i want to add for Deluxe is a bunch of magical weapons with +spirit and +spelldamage buffs ^_^ should substitute nicely for Fireball damage going up with your level
(04:38:56)<tametick>back
(04:39:02)<tametick>took longer than an hour :p
(04:39:36)<tametick>randomnine: sounds cool :)
(04:40:15)<tametick>i am always up for solutions that use the base system instead of artificial ones like the fireball getting better as you level up
(04:40:41)<wl>Yeah, that one confused me in the beginning, I had no idea why the fireball dealt more and more damage
(04:41:41)<tametick>it was also a late change tacked on to make the wizard easier 
(07:34:41)<tametick>jday: are you here?
(07:34:55)<jday>tametick: I am.
(07:35:22)<jday>I think today's the day.
(07:36:02)<jday>Items and buttons are actually working again -- I had a stupid bug caused by autocomplete triggering before I had defined a variable (while moving code around).
(07:36:13)<jday>I was casting something as an ITEMBG.  :/
(07:48:45)<tametick>:O
(07:48:58)<tametick>do you rememeber when we talked about open sourcing cardinal quest?
(07:51:24)<tametick> i was thinking, basically the only reason holding us back is people uploading their versions to the app store/android market. becuase if someone wants to pirate it they don't need the source to do it, and i don't really care if somebody gets to play for free on their desktop or rooted phone by compiling since that's a really tiny minority of players
(07:52:16)<tametick>if we keep the copyright on all assets and gpl the code we're only losing a few people on rooted phones and desktop that compile the game itself
(07:52:36)<tametick>since we can still say you are not allowed to distribute the assets 
(07:52:53)<tametick>of course it's better to wait until we at least released the first mobile versions
(07:53:23)<tametick>so nobody beats us to the punch, but shortly thereafter i think we can gpl the code without much of a downside 
(07:54:42)<tametick>but making open source after that will likely net us some contributers 
(07:55:02)<tametick>what do you think?
(08:09:36)<jday>I think it would certainly make people happy, yes.  Sales and contributors and buzz.
(08:09:57)<jday>We do need to time it right, not just for the sake of the mobile releases but to get the rhythm right.
(08:13:30)<tametick>rhythm?
(08:14:17)<tametick>yeah i agree. also there's a lot of forward momentum at the moment with you guys, tutoring a bunch of new devs might be a drain on your resources 
(08:14:40)<tametick>better do it when the development rate subsides a bit
(08:14:46)<jday>Yeah.  Each time you get people interested again, they want to hear more -- and it's best to time the next thing you say with the moment when their interest would start declining.
(08:15:00)<tametick>right
(08:15:18)<jday>So the bugfix and balance tweaks get people interested again, the mobile releases sustain it, and then open sourcing classic rekindles it.
(08:15:32)<tametick>well
(08:15:41)<tametick>it would be one source base to open won't it?
(08:16:21)<jday>That's our call.  We don't have to release all the new stuff in plus right as we work on it, unless we want to.
(08:16:59)<tametick>right. but mobiles will happen after deluxe anyway, as we want to sell deluxe there too while distributing classic via kong and popcap
(08:18:00)<tametick>i think deluxe 1.0 doesn't need a ton more work that classic won't - the graphics are already there, just need to add some new stats/descriptions to items/monster/etc and it can be refined incrementally 
(08:18:12)<tametick>it doesn't need to be one big bang 
(08:18:35)<tametick>but whatever, we'll see how stuff's going
(08:26:02)<jonathan3>all I say is, use a proper FOSS licence
(08:26:20)<jonathan3>and stick it on github or bitbucket
(09:11:48)<konijn_>greetings
(09:11:50)<konijn_>back from away
(09:12:59)<konijn|sick>come on
(09:13:04)<konijn|sick>only 6 change sets ??
(09:41:57)<tametick>jonathan3: it's already on bitbucket 
(09:42:04)<tametick>just not a public repository 
(09:43:57)<jday>It'll be cool if we can, at some point, license CQ to be at least, say, Mint-compliant and make classic available for package managers.
(09:45:38)<tametick>what's mint-complaint? 
(09:45:50)<tametick>yeah i am sure we can do that
(09:46:25)<tametick>just need to make sure to save the old text config files and that the new changes don't break classic mode
(09:46:44)<jday>Mint generally allows anything that is free-as-in-beer, I think.
(09:55:50)<tametick>well doom shareware has free as in beer assets and is in a ton of distros 
(09:56:14)<tametick>i think only debian is really religious about only Free Software 
(09:56:51)<tametick>i am not in a very good mood atm about linux users in general tho 
(09:57:16)<tametick>my impression of them from cq is that they demands a lot more from you and give a lot less
(10:33:48)<konijn_>reading back logs
(10:34:08)<konijn_>not sure about open sourcing this thing yet, and I'm a big OSS fan
(10:34:17)<konijn_>even ID waited like 3 years
(10:52:01)<randomnine>i'm instinctively wary of open-sourcing something commercial. a lot of OSS is free and that feels to me like a bad association if you want people to give you money
(10:52:42)<Lohen>what is free-as-in-beer ?
(10:53:53)<Lohen>also I would really appreciate it if you did release the code or at least let me see it :O I want to learn how to make a game like this
(10:58:11)<randomnine>after most sales have gone through, then sure, it could be a good thing and revive some interest
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/28 +++
(12:30:39)<jday>Lohen: free-as-in-beer means free of charge, but you don't own rights to it.  Like free beer at a party.
(09:50:26)<tametick>morning 
(10:31:48)<randomnine>heya
(10:32:52)<tametick>anyone here on 64 bit linux?
(10:36:15)<randomnine>'fraid not
(10:36:18)<k00pa>I have one at home
(10:36:25)<randomnine>i do have a Speed stat of 70 though
(10:36:51)<randomnine>this may be considered an exploit
(10:37:28)<randomnine>dang. it wore off.
(10:40:32)<tametick>how did you get it?
(10:40:59)<randomnine>11 coca leaf cocktails at once
(10:41:13)<randomnine>and Berserk
(10:41:23)<randomnine>course, each successive speed boost means that all the speed boosts last for more turns
(10:42:09)<randomnine>so in short you can save up potions, turn into a blur and clear out about a third of the last level before anything hits back
(10:42:45)<tametick>:O
(10:43:05)<tametick>yeah but then you've used up all your potions on 1 level
(10:43:18)<randomnine>on killing minotaurs for free, yeah. :p
(10:43:58)<randomnine>i like it, it's funny
(10:44:01)<tametick>hrm. the problem is that there is only 1 timer per buff type?
(10:44:22)<randomnine>and as you say, there's a downside... and you can't clear the *whole* level, it just doesn't last long enough
(10:44:26)<tametick>iirc the current timer system (or at least the one i coded) should work that way 
(10:45:28)<randomnine>yeah, it works fine
(10:46:50)<tametick>oh, wait
(10:47:05)<tametick>did you mean it lasts longer becuase you are now getting more turns per tick?
(10:47:15)<tametick>(or rather, fewer ticks per turn)
(10:48:16)<tametick>in that case i think it's not too bad. first of all becuase of what you said and the 2nd is that it's a pretty advanced tactic that you won't come up with until having played quite a lot. you're basically getting better at the game
(10:49:08)<randomnine>yup
(10:49:13)<randomnine>hehe
(11:00:42)<randomnine>i think this is feeling reasonably balanced as Fighter now
(11:00:54)<randomnine>thief certainly is a bit deeper since it's not as easy to guess when monsters will miss a turn
(11:01:55)<randomnine>i've removed the difficulty spike on level 1, and made minotaurs more interesting by essentially reducing their damage and increasing their health - so fighting them is more strategic, and you need to use several skills/delaying tactics/potions to take them down
(11:02:44)<randomnine>let's try a wizard run through. \o/
(11:07:11)<tametick>sounds good randomnine 
(11:07:29)<randomnine>i'll check these changes in soon so you can see how it feels
(11:07:50)<randomnine>just want to make sure i haven't inadvertently created any ridiculous difficulty spikes for wizards/thieves since i've been focusing on fighter
(11:12:06)<tametick>yeah
(11:12:20)<tametick>we'll have plenty of play testing when you give the word
(11:12:29)<tametick>can easily summon a bunch of people
(11:12:33)<randomnine>ace
(11:12:42)<randomnine>need jday's changes in first though
(11:14:51)<randomnine>the spell system bugs out far too much, and not being able to pick spells kinda throws off the endgame balance
(11:15:05)<tametick>right
(11:15:17)<tametick>that should be pretty soon i think
(11:24:17)<randomnine>there is a workaround - never move spells from spell slots to inventory, only ever destroy them directly from spell slots
(11:25:26)<randomnine>but i wouldn't expect casual testers to keep in mind workarounds and so on
(11:26:58)<tametick>yeah
(11:27:13)<tametick>we probably also want to put his fix into scrutiny 
(11:27:21)<randomnine>oh, definitely
(11:41:14)<randomnine>#___# just got jumped by several spiders knocking me down to 0 speed
(11:41:34)<wl>I thought there was supposed to be a min speed you could not get below
(11:41:40)<randomnine>oh, it might be 1
(11:41:52)<randomnine>anyway, minimum hp hack to the rescue! you now literally cannot die if your health was above half last turn
(11:41:58)<randomnine>you just end up completely screwed instead
(11:42:04)<wl>Well, if it's still a problem, then the min speed should be a bit higher maybe
(11:42:08)<randomnine>far more fun
(11:42:45)<randomnine>tbh i *like* how spiders can screw you over like that
(11:42:52)<randomnine>it's an interesting panic situation
(11:43:01)<randomnine>but you need to be given at least one turn to respond
(11:43:12)<wl>It's less fun if it happens while opening a door
(11:44:01)<randomnine>even a potion of healing will keep you alive til the next turn, let alone other ways out like teleport etc
(11:44:16)<randomnine>well, there's another fix in there now for that - opening a door only takes half a turn
(11:44:32)<randomnine>so you're much less likely to get insta hit by stuff behind it
(12:11:49)<randomnine>thief feels quite a bit harder now
(12:28:29)<randomnine>i love how, if you charm a purple elemental and it casts magic mirror, the mirror stays charmed even after charm expires
(12:28:46)<randomnine>so then they'll fight
(12:31:10)<tametick>hehe
(12:31:33)<tametick>it's the point where the game is complex enough to have interesting emergent elements like that
(12:41:12)<konijn|gettingb>hmm
(12:41:30)<konijn|ittlesic>gah
(12:44:21)<randomnine>heya
(12:44:50)<konijn|ittlesic>greetings
(12:44:53)<konijn|ittlesic>how are things ?
(12:46:25)<randomnine>pretty good... been rebalancing just about everything, i think i'm reasonably happy with how it all works now
(12:47:07)<randomnine>new test build: http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-dev-20111028-1325.zip
(12:47:19)<randomnine>known bug: moving spells from the spell rack to the inventory can corrupt your inventory and spell rack.
(12:48:13)<randomnine>workaround: never move spells from the spell rack to the inventory. if you want to unequip a spell, you have to move it directly to the 'Destroy' box
(12:49:59)<randomnine>if anyone wants to give that a go and see what they think about the balance now and the difficulty on each class, that'd be really helpful
(12:51:59)<konijn|ittlesic>where is jday with his bag implementation
(12:52:04)<konijn|ittlesic>how far is that away ?
(12:52:10)<konijn|ittlesic>do you know ?
(12:52:23)<konijn|ittlesic>once he has that
(12:52:32)<konijn|ittlesic>I can fix inventory for mobile
(01:00:22)<tametick>it sounds like it's just around the corner yesterday
(01:00:27)<tametick>*sounded
(01:20:33)<konijn|ittlesic>great
(01:51:25)<mcfroogle>Hello
(01:53:06)<mcfroogle>How's development going?
(02:21:22)<jday>Pretty well, mcfroogle.
(02:21:58)<jday>konijn: Yeah, around the corner.  Went to bed early, woke up even earlier, so today's dev time has a very different shape than usual.
(02:22:11)<mcfroogle>what have you been working on?
(02:22:47)<jday>The inventory system, now called the bag system so it's easier to make the transition internally.
(02:23:06)<mcfroogle>whats new about it?
(02:23:24)<jday>The main goal is to have a consistent object model so we don't accidentally leave bits of items hanging around like the current version does -- fixing all the ui bugs.
(02:23:52)<jday>The second goal is to make it so we can actually change the ui, since the current version in place is utterly opaque.  konijn, for instance, needs to be able to tap two cells to switch their contents.
(02:24:59)<jday>The third goal, wherever I've seen easy ways to accomplish it, is to make room for new item types and inventory options -- we will be able to have different inventory arrangements for different player classes now.  Dual wielding fighters, two rings for wizards, only three spell slots for fighters, a bigger inventory for the thief, that kind of thing.
(02:25:52)<jday>And consumables now have all the same abilities as spells -- to demand targets and so forth -- so we can add bombs, throwing darts, traps, scrolls, wands.
(02:26:13)<jday>Little stuff.  :)
(02:28:56)<mcfroogle>awesome sounds good :-)
(02:29:10)<mcfroogle>any chance it will be ported to ios (ipodtouch) anytime?
(02:29:26)<jday>Absolutely.  The second goal I listed is all about that.
(02:29:52)<jday>It's just not convenient to have to drag those little items on a touch screen.
(02:30:13)<mcfroogle>yeah thought so, wasn't sure if it would be android only. glade it will be on ios, free perhapes? lol
(02:30:24)<mcfroogle>yeah fair enough realy
(02:31:07)<jday>My understanding is that there will be a free (classic) release for iOS.
(02:32:23)<mcfroogle>ahh fair enough, i'll get the paid one then, happy to pay twice for 2 platforms
(02:38:31)<tametick_>mcfroogle: it is in fact already working on konijn's ipad
(02:38:58)<mcfroogle>yeah heard about that but ipod touch?
(02:39:12)<tametick_>randomnine: i'm gonna reuse your config text file code for auro, hope you don't mind?
(02:39:55)<tametick>should work on that and iphone too once konijn is done with it
(02:41:06)<tametick>i'm being a bit wiser this time with the rendering code - tiles, actor, etc are not extending Sprite - they have  a draw(BitmapData)  function that draws on a sprite 
(02:41:35)<tametick>so there's a lot better separation between presentation and logic than in cq 
(02:41:55)<mcfroogle>yeah should make it smoother i would think
(02:43:26)<randomnine>tametick: sure, go for it
(02:44:01)<tametick>cheers
(02:44:13)<tametick>5 years from now it will become industry standard 
(02:44:31)<jday>What will become industry standard?
(02:44:40)<tametick>[16:19:37]	<tametick_>	randomnine: i'm gonna reuse your config text file code for auro, hope you don't mind?
(02:44:46)<tametick>^
(02:45:08)<jday>Ha!
(02:47:37)<randomnine>heh.
(02:50:08)<tametick>have you guys seen this wizardry? http://haxe.org/manual/using
(02:50:13)<tametick>it's blowing my mind
(02:50:33)<tametick>it's mapping those static functions to object that match the first parameter 
(02:50:50)<tametick>i guess it's a pretty simple idea but really useful 
(02:54:01)<tametick>wtf: http://twitter.com/#!/fabiotrilho/status/129917398609432576
(02:54:08)<tametick>"paysafecard"?
(02:54:24)<tametick>never even heard of it
(02:56:04)<randomnine>huh. interesting, though that strikes me as one of those language features that's as likely to cause trouble as it is to make things easier
(03:02:14)<tametick>mixins are apparently a pretty well respected language feature in the functional languages world
(03:04:09)<jday>It's not permanent, is the thing -- it only applies within the particular compilation unit, so you're not breaking the object for anything else.
(03:06:08)<jonathan3>tametick, paysafecard is basically a cash receipt you can spend online, you get them here at newsagents
(03:07:03)<jonathan3>was looking into them as a possible payment option on Gameolith but it didn't look too easy to get into
(03:10:09)<tametick>well
(03:10:14)<tametick>you know what they say
(03:10:31)<mcfroogle>don't know what it's like in other countries but people can by pre-funded debit cards that you can by from book stores and supermarkets
(03:10:37)<tametick>no task is too hard for the man who doesn't have to do it himself! and i don't have to support them myself
(03:11:15)<tametick>yeah it sounds like that's what it is mcfroogle 
(03:11:33)<tametick>you can buy cards like those for the app store here
(03:11:36)<tametick>in supermarkets 
(03:11:46)<mcfroogle>yeah we have them as well
(03:11:49)<tametick>like prepay 20 euro in itunes credits 
(03:12:01)<tametick>it's really good for kids 
(03:13:05)<mcfroogle>yeah, i still get them anyway, that way i know how much i'm going to spend on itunes
(03:14:23)<mcfroogle>don't end up getting carried away and spending ??50 or something silly like that
(03:24:23)<randomnine>anyone tried the new build out?
(03:38:27)<mcfroogle>i could give it a go if you wanted?
(03:38:50)<randomnine>awesome :) here it is
(03:38:58)<randomnine>http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-dev-20111028-1325.zip
(03:39:08)<randomnine>known bug: moving spells from the spell rack to the inventory can corrupt your inventory and spell rack.
(03:39:34)<randomnine>so if you want to unequip a spell, you have to move it directly to the 'Destroy' box.
(03:40:07)<randomnine>as for what's changed, there are a bunch of minor usability fixes, and a lot of stuff's been rebalanced. especially how Speed works
(03:40:30)<randomnine>also Fighter is the easiest class now.
(03:41:32)<mcfroogle>ok, i'll give it a go, hope you know you because of you i've not ordered my girlfriends anniversiry present yet, lol
(03:41:37)<mcfroogle>:-)
(03:41:37)<randomnine>i actually haven't finished it with Wizard or Thief so i don't know if it's a bit too tough with the speed changes
(03:41:40)<randomnine>haha
(03:41:47)<randomnine>okay, do that first! :D
(03:42:05)<mcfroogle>nah still got untill wednesday :-)
(03:42:21)<mcfroogle>how has soilder been made easier? strenth?
(03:42:34)<randomnine>well, Speed becoming less important helps the fighter a bit, since he's the slowest
(03:42:57)<jday>Get your girlfriend cardinal quest!
(03:42:59)<randomnine>he also has a bunch more HP
(03:43:34)<randomnine>and +1 defense on base stats
(03:43:45)<mcfroogle>lol could do :-) needs a little more though, would be annoyed if i spend just ??5 lol
(03:44:30)<randomnine>also, i smoothed out a couple of difficulty spikes in the enemies, which the fighter was more vulnerable to
(03:44:32)<mcfroogle>anything been changed to do with how music is played or anything because i'm playing with it off and multitasking
(03:44:37)<randomnine>nope
(03:44:40)<mcfroogle>ok
(03:45:07)<jday>randomnine: Not sure the fighter should have more defense; it sounds like it makes sense, but we're lying with the name.  It's really evasion.
(03:45:09)<mcfroogle>yeah read the changelog doc on google. main annoying one was instant kill after opening a door
(03:45:22)<randomnine>fixed that ^_^
(03:45:31)<mcfroogle>yeah read that
(03:45:41)<jday>randomnine: Did you make it so monsters don't act aware the first turn they notice you?  That would seem like the right fix to me.
(03:45:52)<randomnine>jday: opening a door takes half a turn now
(03:46:04)<jday>That works!
(03:46:05)<randomnine>and there's a slight pause so you can react easier
(03:46:10)<mcfroogle>oh yeah good idea
(03:46:58)<randomnine>and jday: the fighter's forced into melee fights too often, 'cause he's so slow and sucks at magic
(03:47:34)<randomnine>so just buffing his def and hp worked well to balance, and gives him a very different playstyle to eg. the thief who really is about never taking a hit
(03:47:51)<jday>I was thinking that we could have an item -- we could flavor it as a Big Shield maybe? -- that you put in your potion rack and if you die in a turn it blocks all the damage you would have taken and goes away.
(03:48:06)<jday>randomnine: Makes sense.
(03:48:22)<randomnine>jday: we could just give people extra lives, practically the same thing
(03:48:52)<jday>randomnine: Not even close to the same thing!  It wouldn't restore your health or remove any status effects; it just gives you another turn to decide to teleport or heal or something.
(03:49:03)<randomnine>oh, right
(03:49:40)<jday>It's an item I was considering giving to the spearkobold after a suggestion from tametick.
(03:49:41)<randomnine>well, people shouldn't really be told this... but if you have more than half health on a turn, you *cannot* be knocked below 1 hp before your next turn now
(03:49:56)<jday>That's a good change.
(03:50:00)<randomnine>which mitigates similar issues
(03:50:37)<randomnine>if you take an arbitrary amount of damage, you'll be knocked down to randomly somewhere between 1hp and 25% hp
(03:50:40)<jday>(I mean, we're proselytizing casual gamers to turn them into roguelikers -- we do have to be gentle about it.)
(03:50:44)<randomnine>at most
(03:51:27)<randomnine>yeah
(03:51:33)<randomnine>i really didn't like how brutal level 1 was
(03:51:55)<mcfroogle>anychance you'll remove the  thing where when yo walk into a wall you move to the closest door. is annoying :-s
(03:52:05)<randomnine>what would you prefer to happen?
(03:52:09)<jday>mcfroogle: Is it?  I find the game unplayable without it.
(03:52:38)<mcfroogle>oh well i'd prefure to just walk up myself, might just be me though
(03:52:43)<jday>People seem to be very split on it.  There are those who find it annoying and those who can't stand it without; one problem without it is that it loses the nice arcade feel.
(03:52:47)<mcfroogle>don't want other people to go witout it if they like it
(03:53:00)<mcfroogle>yeah thats true
(03:53:01)<jday>Are there particular situations where you'd like it not to do that, perhaps?
(03:53:11)<mcfroogle>just all the time :-s
(03:53:22)<mcfroogle>an option purhapes?
(03:54:04)<jday>Doesn't really feel like an option to me.  Options require a kind of mental investment we don't want people to have to make about such a thing.
(03:54:27)<mcfroogle>yeah fair enough really. i can live with it anyway and sure it'll grow on me
(03:54:38)<jday>Just try to talk me through what bothers you about it -- I mean, you can say you don't want it to trigger, so then is the problem that it happens too soon when you close in on the wall?
(03:54:39)<randomnine>tbh, it's usually a reasonable thing to do
(03:54:47)<mcfroogle>yeah
(03:55:14)<jday>It seems like if it took between another quarter and another half of a player's step time before it started wall sliding, that would give you more time to lift your finger.
(03:55:34)<mcfroogle>yeah thats true
(03:56:16)<randomnine>ooh. that sounds good.
(03:56:24)<randomnine>opening a door delays an additional 25%
(03:56:29)<randomnine>50% felt too long
(03:56:38)<jday>Me, I like saying, "I'm going right!" and holding right until I get where I'm going.  The geometry of the game means that it doesn't really matter how you go about getting there.
(03:56:50)<randomnine>i like the idea of adding a slight delay before sliding
(03:57:11)<randomnine>normal game movement is *slightly* too fast to control precisely imo
(03:57:40)<jday>Is that something you could add, randomnine?  It's a little odd because it's a delay before, rather than after, an action.  I'd love to do it but I'm afraid that will just make my upcoming merge worse.
(03:58:05)<randomnine>mm, it's a bit messy, but yeah, i'll add it
(03:58:17)<randomnine>you need to get that merge done asap :)
(03:58:59)<randomnine>i personally don't care if it's still buggy/incomplete fwiw, provided it's usable
(03:59:15)<jday>randomnine: I recommend offloading all the timer checks into a new method, which could take an argument for an additional initial delay.
(03:59:58)<randomnine>actually
(04:00:04)<randomnine>i'll add a short delay after you walk into a wall
(04:00:17)<randomnine>that works better, because if you *start* a movement by walking into a wall, we don't want a delay.
(04:00:36)<randomnine>and it'll work fine under the current system
(04:01:07)<tametick>jday: why potion and not skill bar?
(04:01:24)<randomnine>'cause it's a consumable, i'd imagine.
(04:01:33)<jday>tametick: No particular reason.  It could be a skill that would recharge, but randomnine got my reasoning right.
(04:02:15)<jday>As it stands now, we can give monsters potions and they'll use them.  (They'll use them immediately just like spells, but never mind that yet.)
(04:12:56)<mcfroogle>I'm liking the little 1+ defence messages when you pick up armor :-)
(04:13:08)<randomnine>:)
(04:14:16)<mcfroogle>have you changed how common items are?
(04:14:20)<randomnine>nope
(04:14:22)<randomnine>item distribution is the same
(04:14:31)<randomnine>only change to items is that staff has +1 spirit
(04:14:42)<randomnine>(wizard lost 1 spirit from base stats)
(04:15:02)<mcfroogle>oh fair enough, just by level 5 i would udually have a better sword than the long sword (2-4)
(04:15:37)<randomnine>mm, Axe is found on levels 4 and 5 (4-6 damage) and Battle Axe is found on 5 and 6 (5-12 damage, -2 speed)
(04:15:46)<randomnine>so you got unlucky there
(04:15:50)<mcfroogle>yeah lol
(04:15:57)<randomnine>imo there are a few big jumps in weapon damage
(04:16:07)<randomnine>would be nice to have a smoother progression but i'm not gonna touch that just yet
(04:16:09)<mcfroogle>yeah purhapse
(04:17:05)<randomnine>actually, maybe i'll buff the longsword. and i'm considering adding a high damage +spirit weapon around level 6-7 for mages/thieves, probably a short sword or long sword variant
(04:17:22)<mcfroogle>fair enough
(04:17:46)<randomnine>only new item i think classic really needs
(04:18:03)<randomnine>oh - Full Plate Mail went from +3 def to +4 def
(04:18:34)<mcfroogle>migh have got that but died lol
(04:18:51)<randomnine>that was partly just from fiddling with the class stat preferences
(04:19:20)<randomnine>speed is still a really useful stat, so the cloak of swiftness was just *better* than the full plate mail
(04:19:30)<randomnine>they're more even now
(04:20:08)<mcfroogle>yeah
(04:20:29)<randomnine>yeah, i'll fiddle with weapons in a bit, i think.
(04:21:14)<randomnine>means going back to Fighter runs though XD
(04:21:21)<mcfroogle>fair enough, oh was thinking the big jumps in weapon damage might disappear after ranged weapons are added
(04:22:50)<randomnine>huh... there seems to be some kind of bug when, after you die and respawn, an elemental's magical attack can instakill you.
(04:23:03)<randomnine>not good >_>
(04:23:28)<mcfroogle>you mean game over die?
(04:23:42)<randomnine>no, normal respawning when you lose your first life
(04:24:05)<jday>randomnine: If the fix involves much of a change to the spell activation code, you might hold off on it for the moment.
(04:24:12)<randomnine>it won't
(04:24:41)<randomnine>there we go, now all bandits have fireballs. test time!
(04:25:16)<randomnine>yep. lolwtf
(04:27:19)<jday>I gave all bandits magic mirror and high spirit when I was first testing monster spells.  That made for an interesting level.
(04:28:01)<jday>"You can defeat me, but can you defeat -- SEVEN OF ME?  Muahaha."
(04:28:05)<randomnine>hahah
(04:28:12)<randomnine>ohhhh
(04:28:20)<randomnine>you know the 'ghost' flag that's set if a spell kills you?
(04:28:38)<randomnine>it's not reset when you respawn. so if you're killed by a spell and respawn, the next spell to hit you instakills.
(04:28:45)<randomnine>oop >_>
(04:29:03)<jday>That counts as a really cool bug, though.
(04:30:43)<randomnine>easy fix, anyway
(04:31:28)<mcfroogle>yeah seems straight forward, just like return a value to 0 on death
(04:34:44)<jday>randomnine: I definitely want to do away with the current dodamage / dokill four-way silliness.  There are lots of things like that that are just designed to cause bugs.
(04:37:01)<randomnine>mm
(04:37:08)<randomnine>on the other hand, if they don't *have* bugs in, why bother?
(04:37:52)<randomnine>we'd be as likely to introduce new ones ^_^
(04:38:05)<mcfroogle>yeah good point
(04:38:14)<mcfroogle>could always sort it at a later date
(04:38:53)<randomnine>nah, odds are we won't need to touch that code ever again
(04:41:00)<tametick>jday: fair enough
(04:41:15)<tametick>yeah consumable vs. reusables is the defining aspect of the 2 bars
(04:57:39)<tametick>randomnine: what's the ETA on dwarf fortress style emergency? 
(04:57:57)<tametick>when will the hippos like the sewers?
(04:58:51)<tametick>i think the complexity you guys are adding definitely brings us closer to the goal of having more emergent elements 
(05:04:39)<jday>tametick: I'm pretty sure the hippos are going to go in the sewers, but I'm afraid they won't like them very much.  This ain't df.
(05:05:19)<randomnine>hehe
(05:06:02)<jday>randomnine: I'm more afraid of complicated interfaces than of shuffling code around, on the whole.  The risk of calling the wrong function because it seems to have the right name, or misinterpreting code because it's calling something unclearly named, is bigger in the long run.
(05:06:14)<jday>Admittedly it matters how long the long run is.
(05:07:20)<randomnine>that's fair, but adding content doesn't mean touching much code
(05:07:49)<randomnine>the inventory system definitely needed a rewrite, it was buggy and difficult to work with and we have a fair bit to do with it
(05:11:31)<randomnine>hmm. not sure if i like a delay on sliding. suspect it might be a compromise that doesn't make anybody happy
(05:12:54)<jday>Try an 1/8th?  Sometimes if you make it small enough that you'd never notice it, it still matters.
(05:13:00)<randomnine>or, if i turn it down 25%, it's fine
(05:13:02)<randomnine>haha, yeah
(05:13:41)<randomnine>it's actually delaying for 75% of a turn now... 100% felt too sluggish when trying to seriously use it, but 50% felt like too tight a time to react in
(05:13:51)<randomnine>i'll pack up a build so you guys can see
(05:15:48)<randomnine>the sweet spot's probably somewhere around 50-75%
(05:16:16)<randomnine>oh, i was mistaken btw, the door opening delay is 50% of a turn
(05:16:33)<randomnine>which is only 100ms
(05:16:49)<randomnine>http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-dev-20111028-1800.zip
(05:17:10)<tametick>any of you guys know anything about androuid?
(05:17:13)<randomnine>mcfroogle: new build for you, should stop most of the character accidentally sliding automatically around walls and corners
(05:17:13)<tametick>*android
(05:20:15)<jday>randomnine: 100ms is usually the threshhold for noticing a delay, I find.  50ms is almost always safe if you need to give a person a tiny bit more time.
(05:21:40)<randomnine>it's a bit more complex than that in this case, since we're adding delays after actions which take 200ms to execute
(05:22:06)<randomnine>so it's kinda the window between them realising the action's started, and the *next* action actually being initiated
(05:22:23)<randomnine>in the case of opening a door and walking through it was 200ms, i changed it to 300ms
(05:25:45)<jday>randomnine: Before a recent fix, the delay between opening a door and walking through was nil.  That played badly with the getting mobbed after opening doors phenomenon.
(05:26:06)<randomnine>oh, ouch. o_o
(05:26:10)<jday>Because then they had two turns to kill you.  Couple that with the turn getting taken before healing or whatever, and it came to three.
(05:27:21)<randomnine>hahah
(05:27:32)<randomnine>okay, opening doors is about 500 times less harsh now
(06:21:37)<mcfroogle>sorry for the delay was playing terraria. will try it out now :-)
(06:23:32)<mcfroogle>Wow, love the doors opening now, feels just right, and yeah the sliding against the walls is much better :-)
(06:23:36)<mcfroogle>good job
(07:28:00)<konijn|ittlesic>[12:57] <randomnine> oh, i was mistaken btw, the door opening delay is 50% of a turn
(07:28:08)<konijn|ittlesic>randomnine : where is that delay coded ?
(07:28:16)<konijn|ittlesic>is that realtime delay
(07:28:20)<konijn|ittlesic>or gamespeed delay ?
(07:28:33)<konijn|ittlesic>if realtime , I need to turn it off :P
(08:31:06)<randomnine>konijn: it's absolutely specific to keyboard-input sliding code
(08:31:21)<randomnine>oh wait
(08:31:21)<randomnine>uh
(08:31:24)<randomnine>the door opening delay
(08:31:32)<randomnine>that modifies resumeActingTime
(08:31:38)<randomnine>which mobile builds ignore anyway
(08:32:44)<randomnine>search for justOpenedDoor
(08:32:48)<randomnine>in GameState.hx
(08:33:19)<randomnine>resumeActingTime is set to Timer.stamp() + 1.5*player.moveSpeed next to where that flag's set
(09:43:06)<tametick>http://www.reddit.com/r/IndieGaming/comments/ls6v4/cardinal_quest/
(09:43:13)<tametick>^not posted by me :p
(09:43:56)<tametick>we're calling the next release 1.2 then, right?
(09:44:04)<tametick>due to the large difference 
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/29 +++
(07:34:31)<tametick>mownin
(07:36:46)<jday>I wonder -- when players are playing with the keyboard, are they holding the key down to move just one cell?
(07:37:24)<jday>When I'm wandering with no monsters in sight, I'll hold a key down.  When I care where I go, though, I tap quickly.
(07:40:41)<tametick>yeah
(07:40:51)<tametick>i think they just don't tap as quickly as you
(04:24:18)<konijn_>oh yeah
(04:24:21)<konijn_>almost not sick
(04:25:37)<tametick>\o/
(07:46:20)<konijn_>wow
(07:46:24)<konijn_>snow in NYC is bad
(08:49:22)<jday>One thing to muse about as we struggle variously with snow, disease, and turning drag and drop back on -- what do we want to do with level generation?
(08:49:40)<jday>It's perfectly serviceable, but it would be nice to make players feel like they're seeing something new.
(09:21:35)<jday>My general sense is that we should keep the current generator unchanged to generate the structure of the dungeon -- it's good for that -- but have alternate room and subtree generators that can make places that feel like caves and so forth.
(09:44:58)<randomnine>sounds good. i was wondering if it'd be worth having a few hand designed levels. but tbh the tileset/art's the limiting factor, not level generation so much
(09:46:48)<randomnine>differentiating tilesets further in terms of the decorations and so on might achieve more
(10:11:34)<jday>Not to mention mixing the tiles up a little from level to level -- they get a little samey in that respect.  But yeah; it's easy to do a pretty decent generator if you have an idea what you want to achieve.
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/30 +++
(06:46:13)<mcfroogle>Hello
(07:46:43)<tametick>back
(07:46:45)<tametick>hi
(07:47:38)<tametick>jday: how about adding in the 2 new color schemes from the new tilesheets i sent you guys a while back?
(07:47:42)<tametick>might help a little bit
(07:47:57)<tametick>it's a cheap solution but an easy one
+++ The date has changed: 2011/10/31 +++
(01:33:58)<konijn_>greetings
(07:34:41)<tametick>how
(07:34:46)<tametick>'s it going?
(07:36:05)<jday>Pretty well.  Wife's quite sick, I'm quite focused but frustrated for time lost not getting stuff done.  The usual, more or less.  "Right around the corner" is the worst place for something to be, because you can't give progressive status updates, and you feel like you're running in place.
(07:44:46)<tametick>i know what you mean
(07:45:07)<tametick>i've been doing pretty good with auro's map rendering 
(07:45:16)<tametick>think i most got it figured out toda
(07:45:18)<tametick>u
(07:45:19)<tametick>y
(07:45:30)<tametick>much simpler (and faster) than cq's
(07:45:55)<tametick>did i tell i'n using nme rather than air for it?
(07:46:30)<tametick>also, i'm you get it figured out soon enough jday :)
(07:46:33)<jday>You did.  I was going to ask just what differences that presented.
(07:46:47)<tametick>most significant one is that it works on my phone
(07:46:56)<tametick>air doesn't support arm6 phones
(07:47:02)<tametick>which most low ends devices are
(07:47:20)<tametick>also, smaller overhead, supposedly faster
(07:47:33)<jday>I've got to go pick my wife up at the student clinic.  Back in twenty.
(07:48:19)<tametick>good luck
(07:57:42)<jonathan3_>adobe is under the sadly mistaken impression that people outside the US can actually afford a ?500 phone
(07:59:37)<tametick>it's also nice to not have all my eggs in adobe's vile basket anymore
(07:59:47)<tametick>would make distributing on desktop linux also much easier 
(08:27:02)<konijn_>do you use a custom font for Auro ?
(08:27:28)<konijn_>becaues that was really what was breaking the nme compile of cardinal quest
(08:27:29)<tametick>not atm
(08:27:35)<konijn_>gah
(08:27:39)<konijn_>and not gah
(08:27:44)<tametick>reading the news ground it seems they've fixed that konijn_ 
(08:27:44)<konijn_>good for you, sucks for us :P
(08:27:48)<tametick>*newsgroup 
(08:27:49)<konijn_>yeah
(08:27:51)<konijn_>except
(08:27:58)<konijn_>that someone needs to compile the binaries
(08:27:59)<tametick>well i am sure i will use a custom font eventually 
(08:28:00)<konijn_>since WEEKS
(08:28:04)<tametick>oh
(08:28:11)<tametick>i used the freshest nme from svn anyway
(08:28:12)<konijn_>I tried and failed miserably
(08:28:22)<konijn_>well fonts dont work for the latest nme
(08:28:27)<konijn_>you need to work from svn
(08:28:38)<konijn_>and then you need the latest svn binaries 
(08:28:42)<tametick>i just said that's what i'm doing
(08:28:43)<konijn_>and nobody seems to have managed on Lion OSX
(08:28:51)<konijn_>ah
(08:28:52)<tametick>hrm
(08:28:54)<konijn_>wait ?
(08:28:58)<konijn_>you sure ?
(08:29:01)<konijn_>on win or mac ?
(08:29:04)<tametick>win
(08:29:12)<konijn_>yeah
(08:29:15)<konijn_>I want to run nme->ios
(08:29:20)<konijn_>so that doesnt work for me
(08:29:31)<konijn_>woe me ;)
(08:29:50)<tametick>i am sure they'll fix that soon enough
(08:29:55)<konijn_>I hope so
(08:29:58)<konijn_>that would be great
(08:30:09)<konijn_>I would love to compare NME speed vs. air speed
(08:36:25)<konijn_>also
(08:36:26)<konijn_>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo7nTxFxCaE&feature=player_embedded
(08:38:41)<tametick>:/
(08:38:43)<tametick>ug
(08:38:51)<tametick>"social gaming community"
(08:39:13)<jday>Social gaming is amazing in that it's the only mode of gaming that isn't social.
(08:39:37)<tametick>what's social about single player games?
(08:44:14)<jday>The experience surrounding them is social -- you actually end up talking about them with your friends, playing them together in person, watching someone else play (usually only if you're quite young).
(08:44:27)<konijn_>eh
(08:44:31)<jday>The social side of single player games has diminished in the age of internet, I'll grant.
(08:44:33)<konijn_>I had my moment with Mafia wars ;)
(08:44:47)<konijn_>Hated the game with a group of people that played it anyway :P
(08:45:39)<tametick>yeah i don't see how that's any different for social games. i'm sure my nieces and nephews talk to their friends about the games they play on facebook 
(08:45:56)<tametick>you could argue that they are not any more social than other single player games tho
(08:46:44)<jday>Maybe so.  It all seems quite isolating to me, and worse, it makes it feel like you're interacting so you never actually go out and seek more profound interaction.
(08:47:01)<jday>Every so often people meet people in social games who become actual friends -- the lowest bar it's possible to set for calling something social -- but not with greater frequency than people become friends at grocery stores.
(08:47:20)<jday>Social games are really timefiller games.  There's nothing wrong with that, per se, beyond the misnomer.
(08:47:39)<tametick>i don't like them myself 
(08:47:56)<tametick>i just don't see your particular point about them being less social than other games
(08:49:31)<tametick>i think what you are trying to say is not about social games per se but about casual games (which pretty much all social games are) 
(08:51:33)<jday>Probably.  I don't play other casual games, either, so it seems that I'm probably overlooking the broader category.
(08:52:08)<jday>When I was a kid, my brothers and I would play MULE on our C-64.  Two player, and when we figured out the keyboard controls, four player multiplayer at a single machine.  Now that's social.
(08:52:40)<jday>Especially when you have to talk to fill in the gaps in the narrative.
(08:52:51)<tametick>well that's another story altogether 
(08:53:05)<tametick>now we're talking about single player vs multiplayer
(08:53:14)<tametick>of course mp games are more social, with that i can agree
(08:53:25)<tametick>and same-computer mp is even more social still
(08:53:59)<tametick>but if you take a step back once more, to the other comparison of social or casual games vs. other single player games
(08:54:42)<tametick>i think the even deeper distinction is between games for which you feel you got something out of after playing vs. "empty" games that just make you feel like you've wasted time
(08:55:45)<konijn_>back
(08:55:45)<tametick>so you're point is IMO vs meaningful games vs. meaningless games, and only coincidentally if at all about either social games or casual games in particular 
(08:56:11)<konijn_>you know, for a moment chess players were very delighted to be able to play chess over the internet and have standings and stuff
(08:56:29)<jday>tametick: Quite right.  It comes down to meaning.
(08:56:32)<tametick>(e.g. Small World or Knytt Stories are fairly causal games but are very much meaningful too)
(08:57:02)<jday>Yeah, and I've actually talked with people about Knytt.
(08:57:13)<tametick>and the latest AAA FPS extravaganza is IMO not any more meaningful than peggle 
(08:58:43)<tametick>now, to come back to social games,
(08:59:10)<tametick>the kinds of games calling themselves social games are from what i've seen some of the least meaningful games out there
(09:00:22)<tametick>but that's due to the games that happen to be social games, and not about the what identifies them as social. the reason is imo that it has been marked (for good reasons) as a good way to make money and therefor attracts people and companies who only care about making money 
(09:00:37)<tametick>you can also see that with most mobile games btw
(09:01:00)<tametick>but i think neither social not mobile games have to be meaningless. 
(09:01:45)<tametick>*nor
(09:03:05)<tametick>"A casual game is a video game targeted at or used by a mass audience of casual gamers. Casual games can have any type of gameplay, and fit in any genre. They are typically distinguished by their simple rules and lack of commitment required in contrast to more complex hardcore games.[1] They require no long-term time commitment or special skills to play, and there are comparatively low...
(09:03:07)<tametick>...production and distribution costs for the producer."
(09:03:39)<tametick>i would say meaningful games like knytt stories tend to fulfill the last sentence but not the first  
(09:04:00)<tametick>so maybe they are not casual games after all
(09:04:23)<tametick>but simply "simple games"
(10:31:28)<Lohen>tametick have you or anyone else here ever considered using Unity to make a game?
(10:31:39)<tametick>Lohen: yes
(10:31:50)<Lohen>really
(10:31:53)<Lohen>Are you going to?
(10:31:56)<tametick>no
(10:32:07)<Lohen>Mind telling why not? A friend is pushing me to learn it
(10:32:09)<tametick>not in the coming couple of months tho
(10:32:47)<tametick>i already know flash/haxe and want to make 2d games, for which unity doesn't provide much advantages compared to it
(10:38:22)<Lohen>what is haxe?
(10:42:12)<tametick>haxe.org
(10:46:17)<Lohen>if I didn't have any training in haxe or flash then
(10:46:25)<Lohen>you would recommend Unity?
(10:46:40)<tametick>if you want to make 3d gmes
(10:46:42)<tametick>*game
(10:46:44)<tametick>s
(10:46:49)<Lohen>and if I didn't really?
(10:47:21)<tametick>then i would say it has little advantage over flash for 2d and some disadvantages 
(10:47:26)<Lohen>I want to make an Android game
(10:47:36)<tametick>you can do that with both
(10:47:45)<Lohen>with Flash or Unity?
(10:47:49)<tametick>and also with several other frameworks/libs/languages 
(10:48:00)<tametick>do you you not understand the meaning of "both"?
(10:48:50)<Lohen>yes, I do, and the question was with (Flash and/or Unity) 
(10:49:07)<Lohen>I guess I thought Android has Flash issues, that was all worked out?
(10:49:20)<tametick>it has air issues on lower end phones
(10:49:28)<tametick>which is why i'm using haxe with nme 
(10:49:36)<Lohen>oh
(10:49:39)<tametick>but cq uses air for the mobile edition 
(10:49:49)<tametick>and just won't be available for low end devices 
(10:50:00)<Lohen>the only other Air game I know of is League of Legends
(10:50:09)<Lohen>and everyone that knows what Air is seems to hate it terribly for that game
(10:51:13)<tametick>and all the rest don't know what air is and don't care that it uses it
(10:51:35)<Lohen>I was just curious why they didn't like it and why more things don't use it, if you like it
(10:51:38)<tametick>anyway i have nothing more to add to this discussion 
(10:51:54)<Lohen>Sorry?
(10:52:04)<tametick>it has some issues, none of them matter much
(10:52:15)<Lohen>Oh ok
(10:52:18)<tametick>i think you should just go make a game with whatever you can get your hand on
(10:52:36)<tametick>and stop wasting time with "research" 
(10:52:38)<Lohen>It is becoming a priority to do that
(10:52:58)<Lohen>The wife is not pleased with my idea to leave the military completely with no alternate form of income
(10:53:25)<tametick>you shouldn't make games in the hopes of making money from it 
(10:53:38)<tametick>as you will most likely not make any money 
(10:53:48)<Lohen>yeah I hear that a lot
(10:54:08)<Lohen>I'm not sure what else I can apply myself towards though in the USA with no degree yet
(10:54:26)<tametick>make games, by all means
(10:54:37)<tametick>just don't count on it as a source of income
(10:54:55)<tametick>there are plenty other jobs that are easier to get (e.g. web programming)
(10:56:07)<Lohen>I'm not qualified to do that, but I would not mind doing it
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/01 +++
(05:08:01)<jday>Up until three last night.  Sorted out most of my remaining bugs except the one that really matters.  Maybe it'll ring a bell; maybe enough is still unchanged that someone will know why this is.
(05:08:24)<tametick>shoot
(05:08:54)<jday>See, I'd like to be able to put the item's image in a cell and set its position to 0,0.  That works right for items in cells inside of the sliding inventory dialog.  But for items in cells in the potion and scroll belts, they end up in the upper left.
(05:09:32)<jday>But just the item, mind.  Other things I put in the cell end up in the right place -- the button image itself appears in the right place, and the activation happens in the right place.
(05:09:47)<tametick>hrm
(05:09:53)<tametick>maybe you are adding it to stage?
(05:09:55)<jday>And it's 
(05:10:26)<jday>-- you'd think so, but they're using the same type of cell, and exactly the same code path results in appending them to it now.
(05:10:37)<tametick>are the other stuff sprites and the item image a bitmap?
(05:10:50)<jday>That's plausible.  I'll look at that.
(05:12:08)<tametick>also groups (or something like that) use targetx,targety instead of x,y
(05:12:51)<jday>I've noticed the distinction between targetx and x, but as far as I noticed it just assigns x = targetx when it updates -- but that's plausible, too.
(05:13:25)<tametick>i was bitten by targetx vs x several times myself
(05:13:30)<tametick>they don't work the same 
(05:20:16)<jday>Silly, that, but true.  It calls SaveLastPosition first thing in an update, rather than last.  Because of that it has to have a separate targetX -- and moving X will not move its children.
(05:21:35)<jday>It does make it clear that the real mystery is why the cells in the sliding dialog end up in the right place.
(05:22:10)<tametick>maybe some hack to work around not knowing that little bit of crucial info
(05:22:16)<tametick>hidding somewhere
(05:22:25)<tametick>biding its time 
(08:54:58)<konijn_>web irc is crap
(08:55:08)<konijn_>It dies without telling me
(10:20:16)<jday>I had more luck with https than http when I was using it.
(10:38:30)<konijn_>huh
(10:38:32)<konijn_>I will try that
(10:38:33)<konijn_>tomorrow
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/02 +++
(04:20:48)<tametick_>salutations 
(04:21:23)<tametick_>popcap guy asked when we'll release the ios version (free & deluxe), i said it should be ready in about a month
(07:36:14)<konijn_>tametick
(07:36:16)<konijn_>greetings
(07:36:32)<konijn_>as for iOS , what would difference between free and delux ?
(07:36:48)<konijn_>also, we never discussed price :)
(07:36:52)<konijn_>I was thinking 2.99
(07:37:06)<konijn_>Also
(07:37:10)<wl>Isn't that quite high for ios?
(07:37:27)<konijn_>depends
(07:37:31)<konijn_>we dont do in game sales
(07:37:37)<konijn_>like legends of yore does
(07:37:46)<konijn_>or 100 rogues
(07:37:53)<konijn_>but 100 rogues might charge
(07:37:58)<konijn_>hmmm
(07:38:08)<konijn_>I think I paid for that
(07:38:13)<konijn_>1.99
(07:38:20)<konijn_>but they have in app purchase as well
(07:38:25)<wl>It's just that I always read that on ios the cheaper price point is way more important than on pc because of the many free/very cheap games
(07:38:36)<konijn_>yeah
(07:38:41)<konijn_>but its a roguelike
(07:38:50)<konijn_>I think the rules are mildly different for rpg/roguelike
(07:38:52)<wl>So it's niche anyway or what?
(07:39:38)<konijn_>I wonder
(07:39:50)<konijn_>but then you see how many people play on Kong
(07:40:00)<konijn_>and are clamoring for this on iOS
(07:40:00)<konijn_>at first I thought it was nice
(07:40:08)<wl>Because it's not really a roguelike, or at least not like most rl
(07:41:40)<konijn__>okay
(07:41:46)<konijn__>got kicked in under 5 mins :)
(07:41:51)<konijn__>so anyway
(07:41:55)<konijn__>we could introduce at 2.99
(07:42:03)<konijn__>and then later drop to 1.99 like 100 rogues
(07:42:16)<konijn__>or develop in app purchase from free to deluxre
(07:42:32)<konijn__>but then we really need to delineate clearly ( since I need to code it ) what is basic and what is deluxe
(07:42:35)<wl>That should be a given
(07:42:37)<konijn__>you know
(07:42:48)<konijn__>I would think that the bugfixes on inventory are in basic
(07:42:51)<wl>I think having an upgrade possibility right in the free version is the single best way to get sales
(07:43:03)<konijn__>it's pretty hard with air
(07:43:25)<konijn__>you have to write c code then that interacts with the objective c api's
(07:43:32)<konijn__>jday thinks he can do it
(07:43:51)<konijn__>lets have him sweat on inventory first :P
(07:44:37)<konijn__>I will be off in about 5 minutes
(07:44:40)<wl>Yeah, I'm waiting to be able to test the bugfixed version :D
(07:44:48)<konijn__>my VPN software no longer works, so I need a re-install
(07:44:55)<konijn__>once jday rewrites inventory
(07:44:55)<jday>The inventory stuff will wrap up soon.  I got sick with trying to fix this last bug the right way, so I'll resort to hacking around it, as I should have done days ago.
(07:45:01)<konijn__>I can fix iOS inventory
(07:45:10)<konijn__>dude yes!
(07:45:16)<konijn__>no spinning wheels :P
(07:46:26)<konijn__>hah
(07:46:29)<konijn__>that's funny
(09:32:56)<konijn_>damned
(09:33:04)<konijn_>the https version is not much more stable
(10:00:57)<konijn_>well
(10:01:00)<konijn_>bye !
(10:01:02)<konijn_>I am gone
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/03 +++
(09:55:26)<mcfroogle>how's everyone
(09:55:38)<tametick>elo
(09:57:48)<mcfroogle>how are you?
(09:57:56)<tametick>pretty food
(09:57:58)<tametick>*good
(09:58:06)<tametick>progressing slowly tho :|
(09:58:06)<mcfroogle>good good
(09:59:01)<mcfroogle>oh how comes? just distractions or hit a problem
(10:04:01)<tametick>nah
(10:04:15)<tametick>it's often that way at the beginning of a new project
(10:04:23)<tametick>need to think more than to code
(10:06:23)<wl>paper coding!
(10:12:08)<mcfroogle>so stuck for ideas?
(10:24:57)<tametick>nope
(11:07:41)<mcfroogle>whats wrong then?
(11:08:09)<tametick>nothing?
(11:08:14)<tametick>who said something is wrong?
(11:08:42)<tametick>it is the natural order of things for it to take a little while to get going
(11:09:13)<tametick>at the beginning you need to lay down the infrastructure that will accompany you for months or years into the future 
(11:09:19)<tametick>so you better think it through
(11:17:34)<mcfroogle>oh yeah, just you said it's progressing slow and i thought it was because something was wrong
(11:19:42)<mcfroogle>have you heard of the humble bundle?
(11:24:20)<tametick>sure
(11:24:36)<tametick>i'm heading to bed, talk to you guys tomorrow 
(11:25:33)<mcfroogle>ok, just thought i'de suggest putting CQ forward for it
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/04 +++
(06:51:46)<jday>Suddenly, reviewing all the changes I made to cq, I feel less crazy for taking so long on this inventory stuff.
(06:52:34)<jday>I've felt pretty crummy about it -- opportunity cost and all.  This should be in today, now.
(07:18:09)<tametick>cool :)
(07:18:14)<tametick>it was a long time coming jday 
(07:18:26)<tametick>it was technical debt incurred throughout many moons 
(07:19:14)<tametick>that means we can have 1.2, and the last version of classic out some time next week?
(07:41:17)<jday>I think that sounds very reasonable!
(07:43:37)<tametick>cool
(07:48:45)<konijn_>cool
(07:48:54)<konijn_>then I can finish up a first release of iOS I think
(07:49:06)<konijn_>test release that is
(07:49:22)<konijn_>I will update the ipa and you can find friends to play with it ;)
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/05 +++
(07:37:47)<jday>Well, the good news is I figured out what was causing the bug I finally resigned myself to hacking around.  The bad news is that I still had to.
(07:38:45)<jday>It's the same relative/absolute malarkey that forces the silly targetx/targety stuff.
(07:39:17)<jday>So the very first update causes a HxlGroup to update its members based on its motion from 0, 0 -- effectively, their positions at that point are treated as having been relative.
(07:45:43)<jday>From that update on, their positions are absolute.  For the consumables and abilities bars, that first update was getting called before the items were actually being put there.
(07:46:40)<jday>It's really a very flaky bunch of hacking around not understanding how easy relative position can be.
(07:50:56)<jday>... and that, in turn, was a problem because GameUI new was calling super.update instead of just update (although why it needs to call update at all I'm checking presently).
(08:03:16)<jday>So what's the history of the haxel stuff?  It's flixel ported to haxe -- is that right?
(09:07:47)<jday>-- and it looks like my revised workaround actually works.
(12:04:16)<konijn_>hmmm
(12:04:23)<konijn_>did not see the entire conversation
(12:04:49)<konijn_>but it would seem that you have position problems with spellbar and potionbar ?
(12:05:05)<konijn_>I had x/y clicking problems with those bars
(12:05:26)<konijn_>had to redetermine x/y for them when Configurion.mobile
(06:22:56)<mcfroogle>ermm whats the beat at the top talking about? the "use this for ios version"
(06:29:18)<jday>To get the memory footprint down, mcfroogle.
(06:29:25)<jday>konijn and tametick were not on at the same time.
(06:30:17)<mcfroogle>ahh fair enough, was getting excited lol
(06:32:22)<jday>Yes, get excited!  I hit one more stupid bug last night, but I was able to resolve it.  Drag and drop works again; I've introduced a stupid bug that keeps spells like magic mirror from working, and there are a few layout problems, but most of this is right now.
(06:32:35)<jday>Which means konijn really will be able to get the ios version pushed out soon.
(06:47:57)<mcfroogle>awesome :-) so will it be ipad only? or touch too?
(06:48:34)<jday>I'm counting on the Android release through Kongregate, so there will be that.
(06:50:29)<mcfroogle>aww i don't have an android phone, have sybian phone and an ipod touch 4g
(06:51:49)<jday>Is ipod touch 4g an ios device?
(06:58:25)<jday>Good.  The magic mirror bug was trivial.
(07:10:10)<mcfroogle>yeah it runs ios
(07:10:12)<mcfroogle>sorry for the delay
(07:10:56)<mcfroogle>same as iphone just 1/3 of the price and can't phone or text people
(10:57:31)<jday>Is there any simple way to have it turn all unresolved conflicts into comments?  That would be fantastic right about now.
(10:59:22)<tametick>no idea
(10:59:39)<tametick>are you using tortoisehg?
(10:59:48)<tametick>i find it's merge tool quite nice
(10:59:51)<tametick>*its
(11:03:49)<jday>Yeah, TortoiseHG -- so I'm using KDiff3 presently.  It's all a bit terrible when you want to merge but you've moved things.
(11:04:16)<jday>So the ideal, sane way to do it would be to have it spew out all the changes as comments, let me see what chokes when I try to build, and go from there.
(11:06:02)<jday>The more I think about it, the more I think what would be easiest would be to diff randomnine's last version against the version where we forked, and go from there, but -- well, it's nothing time and strong drink won't fix.
(11:11:45)<jday>I've turned the font size and the tab width down, and now that I can actually see whole lines I think I'm getting the hang of this.  I might just be done before I get too old.
(11:12:23)<jday>And it's kind of fun, really, now that I've got the tool working for me instead of against me.  I'm occupied later this evening for a bit, but I can easily see pulling an all-nighter over something like this.
(11:15:00)<mcfroogle>Hello again
(11:17:18)<jday>mcfroogle: Hey.  Things are going pretty well.  I've actually been proceeding on the merge.
(11:17:38)<jday>After my stupidly long fork, I get what's coming.
(11:18:46)<mcfroogle>hope it goes smoothly. whats added? happy to test a build if you throw it my way. can always email me if you want, too
(11:20:42)<jday>I did a rewrite of the inventory system, which is pretty messy since it touches everything else.
(11:21:20)<mcfroogle>ahh fair enough
(11:22:33)<mcfroogle>not sure if tametick is online but i mentioned before that he should put CQ up to be part of the HumbleBundle would get it told about, make money and make moeny for charity
(11:22:40)<mcfroogle>what do you think?
(11:59:49)<tametick>mcfroogle: it's not that easy to get on the HIB, every indie around wants to get on it
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/06 +++
(12:00:20)<mcfroogle>oh really? thoguht they were kinda desprate. fair enough
(12:01:01)<tametick>desprate?
(12:01:07)<tametick> they are making money hand over fist 
(12:01:21)<tametick>pretty much became the indie king maker
(12:03:58)<mcfroogle>oh fair enough, have you applied or anything?
(12:57:51)<mcfroogle>oh yeah i was thinking of possably doing a playthrough and putting it on youtube or possably making some sort of trailer any thoughts?
(12:59:26)<tametick>sounds good :)
(01:00:54)<mcfroogle>which would you prefure?
(01:48:45)<tametick>whatever you feel like would be appreciated 
(01:49:08)<mcfroogle>ok :-)
(02:07:01)<mcfroogle>any perticular information you want in the trailer? price? location ect?
(02:11:45)<tametick>if you link to cardinalquest.com that's enough
(02:12:39)<mcfroogle>ok
(07:19:27)<mcfroogle>Alright people
(08:24:49)<jday>I was waiting for you to say something more.
(08:49:39)<mcfroogle>waiting for me to say more? lol exspected people to say ok and stuff
(08:57:00)<mcfroogle>so hows development going?
(08:59:24)<jday>It's going pretty well.  I'm making lunch at the moment, though.  I've merged everything but the thorniest part.
(09:00:49)<mcfroogle>fair enough, leaving that merge for a while? or just not finished?
(09:02:45)<jday>Just not finished.  There's nothing for it but to power through.  It's a pretty clumsy process, though -- the tools are great for most problems, but they just fall flat on this.  I've moved a bunch of stuff around and they don't like that.
(09:07:41)<mcfroogle>Fair enough, good luck finishing that. what are your plans after that
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/07 +++
(03:21:19)<mcfroogle>Hello everyone, how's development.
(03:21:33)<mcfroogle>oh and tametick, listening to your interview :-)
(03:46:30)<randomnine>just been poking things slowly here while jday wraps up the inventory rewrite
(03:47:10)<mcfroogle>fair enough, sorry what part are you woking on again?
(03:47:32)<randomnine>bugfixing and CQ deluxe :)
(03:48:36)<mcfroogle>awesome :-) so whats going to be added for deluxe?
(03:49:37)<randomnine>a bunch new spells, a ton of new items, three new classes, probably some new level generation types
(03:49:54)<randomnine>a whole range of magic user type items as well, most likely
(03:50:36)<randomnine>and load/save, of course, though that might make it into classic
(03:51:03)<randomnine>more enemies
(03:52:14)<randomnine>and there's some more possible cool stuff like ranged weapons and shops
(03:54:16)<mcfroogle>awesome :-) sounds good. anyone been working on a score system and leader board?
(04:24:30)<randomnine>not yet
(04:27:40)<mcfroogle>fair enough. when do you think anouther test version will be ready. been a while scince i've done one
(04:38:15)<randomnine>after jday's merge is done i'd think
(04:42:22)<mcfroogle>fair enough can't wait. and can't wait for ios too :-)
(06:26:15)<jday>randomnine: 
(06:26:42)<jday>(sorry, headphones fell on enter) -- the merge is done, except debugging merge-related bugs!
(06:26:53)<tametick>jday, randomnine 
(06:27:09)<tametick>good to hear jday 
(06:27:30)<tametick>i just got the first level generator for auro done myself \o/
(06:27:43)<tametick>my reward is procrastinating on irc 
(06:28:25)<wl>yeah! Will there be a public test version today? :)
(06:28:34)<jday>That is cool.  I've been thinking how to do a good end boss -- since realistically, players are going to want one for Deluxe -- and I'm thinking a 2x2 minotaur in a large room with a number of 1-sized gaps.
(06:28:52)<tametick>groovy 
(06:29:04)<tametick>can use one of those icons in the air directory 
(06:29:15)<tametick>or perhap's ben's big sprites 
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/08 +++
(01:03:46)<mcfroogle>Hello everyone
(01:51:59)<mcfroogle>So what time is it in peoples places?
(02:05:08)<randomnine>jday: cool - push it, i might as well be bugfixing too :)
(02:05:40)<wl>release a public test version!
(10:32:21)<mcfroogle>Hello everyone, how's development?
(10:33:06)<jday>Going ok.  Just finished lunch, making some coffee, patching up a couple more trivial bugs and I'll be pushing today so randomnine can join me.
(10:34:25)<mcfroogle>going to start the merge then? :-) how do you go about it? do you meet up? or do it online?
(10:50:01)<jday>The merge is effectively done!  I'm just fixing things that I left broken either before or during the merge -- stuff that I had to say, "Ok, these are directly contradictory -- I'll fix it when I'm done."
(10:50:34)<jday>You both edit the same files, but you make different changes; if the changes are small, that's almost always ok.  When they're as big as mine were, you're going to step on each others' toes a bit.
(11:06:36)<mcfroogle>ahh fair enough :-)
(11:09:57)<jday>So I spent my weekend paying the piper, and it's starting to get exciting again.
(11:12:35)<mcfroogle>thats good :-) think you'll have a test feild for me soon? lol
(11:13:08)<jday>We will!
(11:15:20)<mcfroogle>good good :-) lol thanks
(11:15:33)<mcfroogle>sorry i ment to say *test build before
(11:15:57)<mcfroogle>was listening to complains about Mordern Warfare having a rubbish field of view
(11:19:14)<mcfroogle>Do you have steam?
(11:38:30)<mcfroogle>Do you have steam?
(11:39:16)<jday_>I don't.  I'm mostly Linux.
(11:40:32)<mcfroogle>fair enough :-)
(11:44:05)<mcfroogle>what sort of games do you play? mainly indie?
(11:46:22)<jday_>Indie and old.  I have a few roguelikes I play (Brogue is the main one), a few games I work on.  The last commercial game I played at great length was Master of Magic -- or maybe it was X-COM?  No one would accuse me of keeping up with the times.
(11:49:07)<mcfroogle>fair enough really. i mainly stick to indie games and old games too. thing is the ratio of money and playtime is better for indie than new games. would rather play ??5 for CQ and get 5 hours instead of paying ??40 for modern warfare and getting 20. doesn't work out
(11:50:43)<Lohen>well the idea of MW3 is you play online, no one gives a crap about offline in that
(11:51:08)<Lohen>and as long as you like killing / being killed by obnoxious 12 year olds the fun never stops!
(11:51:21)<jday_>mcfroogle: Thing is, I don't want brief excursions into games; I want games I can really sink my teeth into, and no commercial game offers that.  They're scripted and overdesigned and just -- I just can't care.
(11:51:39)<mcfroogle>yeah i know what you mean
(11:51:49)<Lohen>jday I would argue Binding of Isaac and Super Meat Boy meet your standard
(11:51:55)<Lohen>there is a fuckton of content in both of those games
(11:52:01)<mcfroogle>to be honest, they don't make them like they used to
(11:52:23)<Lohen>and meta content, like in Meat Boy you can push yourself to beat the par times instead of just winning, and you can collect widgets to unlock more characters
(11:52:50)<Lohen>BoI has over a hundred power ups that you'll only see a fraction of per play through
(11:52:59)<mcfroogle>yeah those to are good, thats what i mean i've had hours and hours from binding of issac and it's like ??5
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/09 +++
(12:03:01)<jday_>Yeah, those will both probably be good games to try, but lots of content isn't really what does it for me.  It's a certain je-ne-sais-quoi.
(12:03:24)<mcfroogle>yeah
(12:04:08)<mcfroogle>do you play minecraft?
(12:11:56)<Lohen>well jday you said you wanted something with meat to it :)
(12:12:13)<Lohen>I assumed you meant content, and motivation to explore said content
(12:14:26)<Lohen>sometimes in Meat Boy I get caught up in wanting to beat the par times
(12:14:39)<Lohen>I'll go over 20 levels at a time pushing myself to do it
(12:14:49)<Lohen>I guess they added a level editor at some point?
(12:14:53)<Lohen>and community upload system
(12:15:07)<mcfroogle>yeah, that concept is good, it's usually in racing games. where you can see you improved each time even by a few seconds
(12:15:21)<mcfroogle>and yeah an editor is always good
(12:17:43)<jday_>mcfroogle: Nope.  No minecraft.  That doesn't do it for me, either.  I want to be creative in spite of the system, not through it.
(12:17:58)<mcfroogle>fair enough
(12:18:34)<jday_>I mean, part of it is just not having as much time anymore.  But there's more to it than that.  I don't generally want to run through a set of predefined puzzles and experiences -- it just doesn't interest me.  I'd rather watch a film or read a book than do that.  It'll be denser and better.
(12:18:41)<Lohen>I'm with jday on that one
(12:18:54)<jday_>And if I'm going to build something, well, I'll just write it -- in code or as a story.
(12:19:11)<Lohen>also jday you might like Meatboy, often there are multiple ways to finish a level and it is up to you to figure out the best ones, that is what makes the time trials so engaging
(12:19:37)<Lohen>you see some level and barely beat it after lots of attempts, and then you see you were like a whole minute too slow to beat par
(12:19:48)<Lohen>and you wonder "how the heck do they expect me to get THAT time?"
(12:19:56)<Lohen>and they don't show you, you have to figure it out for yourself
(12:21:45)<mcfroogle>Think with minecraft is it's so open. most games have an obvious "box" around them but when playing mincraft it feels it doesn't
(12:24:42)<Lohen>Minecraft is less of a game and more of a "look what I can do with an engine that looks like it is from 1994"
(12:26:30)<mcfroogle>yeah possably although i don't think i've ever made a statue of anything. enjoy it without that part.
(12:28:25)<Lohen>meh. I'm too busy to enjoy a game with no objective
(12:28:34)<Lohen>I need goals, jday is much the same
(12:29:16)<Lohen>in fact I am of the belief that a game with no objective does not actually qualify as a game
(12:29:20)<Lohen>it is more of a simulation
(12:33:43)<mcfroogle>yeah, fair enough
(12:40:04)<randomnine>hey, making your own entertainment in a nicely reactive system can be a lot of fun
(12:40:22)<mcfroogle>yeah
(12:40:47)<randomnine>that said, minecraft never clicked for me either. because OH MY GOD hitting rocks until coal or iron ore comes out forever
(12:41:14)<randomnine>but i did spend a few hours mucking about on a 'minecraft classic' server or whatever it's called, the free version where you can just spawn/destroy blocks
(12:41:25)<mcfroogle>lol yeah can take a while, has been changed alot recently though, lots of updates and giant comunitty
(12:41:27)<randomnine>because it was the most gloriously insane game world i've ever seen
(12:41:58)<randomnine>and its popularity with trolls/kids meant it had a form of natural erosion, where any structure would disintegrate in strips and chunks overnight
(12:43:41)<mcfroogle>it depends though on the servers comunity i've been on servers where people have been banned instantly. also can get server mods that sell you whos destroyed which blocks
(12:45:06)<jday_>(Back from laundry.)  I need goals, but I don't want them given to me, either.  I play hard to get.
(12:46:08)<mcfroogle>yeah, thats what i enjoy about minecraft, sort of set myself the occational goal. anyway better get to sleep now, it's getting pretty late here
(07:46:56)<jday>"Why are the icons five pixels off center? -- oh, huh, because of this -5 here."
(08:35:00)<randomnine>hehe
(03:48:43)<tametick>jday_: how's the merge going?
(08:37:01)<mcfroogle>hello
(08:37:59)<mcfroogle>hows development going?
(08:41:44)<tametick>jday is about to push a major breakthrough mcfroogle 
(08:42:02)<mcfroogle>awesome thats good. :-) and lol can i have some?
(08:42:18)<mcfroogle>going to have a test build soon?
(08:43:20)<jday>There will be a few known issues left after I push, but it'll be good enough for randomnine to dive back into the action.
(08:43:55)<mcfroogle>fair enough :-) sounds good. what new features are going to be the first to go in?
(08:48:09)<jday>Giving different classes different item slots would be pretty low-hanging fruit, since that's all supported now.
(08:48:31)<jday>I've got some tactical changes I want to make -- make the game a little more puzzly just by changing monster AI.
(08:48:50)<mcfroogle>sounds good. :-)
(08:49:07)<mcfroogle>let me know if you need me to test anything. sadly only thing i'm good at
(08:49:33)<jday>This is why if you notice anything clever that monsters should be doing (like the door blocking stuff), it'll be useful if you point it out.
(08:50:27)<mcfroogle>yeah fair enough
(08:51:37)<jday>I'm also thinking that chests should be impassable for monsters.
(08:51:52)<mcfroogle>that sounds good actully
(08:52:10)<mcfroogle>maybe some monsters should be able to open doors? and just wander about?
(08:52:50)<mcfroogle>like the AI randomly picks a location on the map and starts the monster heading there. obviously if it sees you it attacks
(08:57:13)<jday>Having a better wander AI would be nice -- not hard at all -- but I wouldn't change the door rules.  That's the way the player cracks open more of the level and controls the ramp of difficulty.
(08:58:22)<mcfroogle>oh yeah, course didn't think of that. if the door is open other things can go through the door. how about a ghost of somesort?
(09:07:21)<jday>I think that doors could be a great puzzle element if we wanted to add that layer of interface complexity, but we really can't afford to.  Pressure plates, on the other hand, are a definite candidate for Plus.
(09:08:14)<mcfroogle>oh yeah that could be good. maybe just switches occationally to open a locked door. or purhaps a hidden area
(10:19:40)<mcfroogle>hello again
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/10 +++
(12:28:49)<mcfroogle>so which other games have you worked on before jday?
(12:51:34)<jday>mcfroogle: None commercially.  I do a bit on Brogue, and I have a few projects of my own -- quite a few, really.
(12:52:05)<jday>Web development for a job before and games for a hobby -- so it comes together pretty well.
(01:31:08)<mcfroogle>cool which are your own projects? and releases? or any betas ect?
(01:31:58)<mcfroogle>*any releases?
(02:09:48)<jday>mcfroogle: My only release was a 7drl called Rook.  I have a few videos up of projects that are in progress, though.  They're fairly old now.  I really need to get excited and release them.
(02:10:43)<jday>These are two of them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cYAIt_L__4 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8EJYI1lBGY
(02:13:09)<mcfroogle>Sorry for the delay. they look good
(02:15:04)<jday>The delay was mine!  I've been checking messages a little less often to stay in the flow better.  Different days call for different tactics.
(02:15:50)<mcfroogle>yeah fair enough really. don't let me distract you from progress
(02:38:15)<jday>mcfroogle: Don't worry!  I'm in a few other channels, and they can get pretty distracting if I let them.
(02:54:55)<mcfroogle_>fair enough.know what you mean
(08:17:04)<jday>randomnine: Did you remove the player's override for actInDirection or did that disappear in my merge somehow?
(09:35:52)<randomnine>i don't see a CqPlayer::actInDirection() in my code here
(09:37:42)<randomnine>ah yes, i removed it because the only thing it did was turn off glows on items you walked over
(09:38:05)<randomnine>when obviously that can no longer happen
(10:02:07)<jday>It also stored the old location of the player, used by the sliding.  Good to know what the glow turnoff was for -- it's funny how code can just sort of hide after being disabled.
(10:30:48)<randomnine>ah, whoops. sorry ^_^
(10:31:41)<jday>It was kind of nice to have an easy one to fix.  :)
(10:32:02)<jday>Ok, I'm two check marks on this piece of paper away from being comfortable pushing and going to sleep.
(10:32:09)<randomnine>\o/
(12:35:31)<jday>Well, that's pushed.  randomnine, unless you feel compelled to, don't fix a few of the obvious bugs -- just get to know the new system.
(12:35:59)<jday>I haven't removed everything redundant yet, either, since I'm still referring to some of it.  But the new things are basically all the Bag stuff.
(12:37:01)<jday>I was starting to move the charge arc for spells -- didn't finish, so those don't show right now.  Drag and drop isn't moving the item in the hierarchy right now, so the z-order looks messed up (easy fix).
(12:37:23)<jday>Unless I managed to fix it by accident, there's a crash on game over -- it's doing something stupid while cleaning up the bag.
(12:37:48)<Lohen>Anythinig you want me to test?
(12:38:40)<jday>Not until tomorrow, I should think.  It's very much an in-dev push.  More of a, "what if I get hit by a bus?" kind of thing than "this is done!  let's make money!" kind of thing.
(12:40:26)<jday>But it's really close, and with another push like this evening's we'll be set.  There's an inertia that sets in when you have to work around obnoxious bugs.  Spending six hours and making huge progress is a thrill.  Spending a few hours and just kind of grinding -- you lose steam.
(12:41:33)<jday>randomnine: Also, there are a few comments with the words "merge note" -- they're minor things, but non-breaking so I haven't put them where they go.
(12:47:39)<randomnine>cool ^_^
(12:50:58)<jday>This is the coolest single line:  bagDialog = new BagDialog(this, 5, 5, 13, ["shoes", "gloves", "armor", "jewelry", "weapon", "hat"]);
(12:51:32)<jday>And we'll be able to drop those into our definition of the classes and have no special logic at all.
(12:52:22)<randomnine>mm. nice
(01:08:16)<tametick>:)
(01:08:24)<tametick>this road leads to angband
(01:09:10)<randomnine>heh
(01:25:15)<tametick>http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/
(01:25:22)<tametick>this is a really good read
(05:10:29)<randomnine>jday: the game can crash whenever you pick up a weapon. CqPlayer::pickup() calls CqBag::grant() and then CqLevel.removeLootFromLevel() if grant() is successful
(05:11:02)<randomnine>the problem is, grant() can call destroy() on the object and return success when selling it for money, which nulls its _tilePos field
(05:11:15)<randomnine>and removeLootFromLevel needs that information
(05:31:56)<randomnine>fixed by changing grant() to return SUCCEEDED, SOLD or NO_SPACE, pickup() now responds appropriately and takes responsibility for destroying sold items as previously done in destroyAndGiveMoney()
(05:32:16)<randomnine>not entirely happy with that, but it's the least intrusive fix.
(07:18:07)<jday>randomnine: Shouldn't be hard to make it a little more elegant if we want to; thanks for catching it, though.  Merging the logic from CqInventoryItemManager was the very last thing I did last night.
(08:02:00)<jday>randomnine: Any other initial comments?
(10:15:46)<mcfroogle>Hello people, how's dev going?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/11 +++
(12:04:50)<randomnine>jday: haven't looked round much, but the old inventory bugs seem to be gone, which is nice ^_^
(12:05:41)<jday>randomnine: They were baked in deep, too.  I spent a long time just trying to refactor -- with a partial rewrite here and there -- and the depth to which they were integrated in astounded me.
(12:05:49)<randomnine>hehe
(12:06:23)<jday>I hope the new conceptual model is clearer, too.  It needs a bit of cleaning to be as clear as possible, but the item <-> proxy, slot <-> cell, item->slot, proxy->cell association seems easier to think about.
(12:06:35)<randomnine>mm.
(12:09:31)<randomnine>oh - for some reason the map screen is no longer transparent
(12:09:48)<randomnine>wondered if that was something that came up in merging
(12:10:05)<jday>Really?  I checked it in that way?  That was part of testing.
(12:10:57)<jday>Thanks for catching that.  There's always silly stuff after lots of late nights.
(12:12:43)<randomnine>i honestly only ran through the first level a couple times... but the only bugs i noticed were
(12:12:58)<randomnine>- crash when picking up and selling a weapon (which i've fixed)
(12:13:20)<randomnine>- opaque black area under playerinfo/map/inv/char column, in the bottom left corner for some reason
(12:13:25)<randomnine>- map is not transparent
(12:13:35)<randomnine>- items being dragged in inventory go behind boxes
(12:13:56)<randomnine>- spells dragged into spell rack never go *in front of* boxes, so get hidden (but are still selectable)
(12:14:07)<randomnine>and that charge arcs don't show
(12:14:20)<randomnine>everything else seemed good
(12:14:51)<randomnine>oh, and your merge killed the auto-targeting of the nearest enemy when you activate a spell that targets enemies
(12:15:29)<randomnine>i fixed that (moved the relevant logic to the new CqItem::tryToActivate function)
(12:15:54)<randomnine>anyway you might want to grab changes and rebuild resources before you continue
(12:16:21)<jday>Yeah; I'm actually planning on extending your auto-targeting to take tab to jump to the next enemy -- closest mob takes an argument for a mob that will be considered "too close".
(12:16:23)<randomnine>i imagine you've had enough of merging for a while :D
(12:16:41)<randomnine>heh, neat.
(12:17:56)<randomnine>maybe sort mobs by distance and pick the one after the one the cursor is over currently
(12:18:36)<randomnine>alternatively, since it's using integer manhattan distance
(12:19:19)<randomnine>dist = abs(mobx-playerx) + abs(moby-playery) + (mobx/32) + (moby/1024)
(12:19:19)<jday>It wouldn't be too hard just to spiral out from the player -- certainly has more attractive algorithmic complexity than the current approach -- but it's actually doing pretty much exactly that.
(12:19:58)<jday>The mobx/32 and moby/1024 -- just for tiebreakers?
(12:19:58)<randomnine>would guarantee each mob a unique distance, so does the same thing but avoids the sort and the second pass
(12:20:02)<randomnine>yeah
(12:20:52)<jday>Right now, it works like it did before -- scans through and finds the least -- but it skips each monster if (a) it's strictly closer than the one passed in or (b) it's exactly the same distance as the one passed in and the one passed in hasn't come up yet in the list.
(12:20:58)<jday>So the tiebreaker is just the order in the array.
(12:21:09)<randomnine>ah, cool
(12:21:31)<randomnine>of course, they've already got a stable order :D
(08:07:36)<jday>Charge arcs and some drag fixes pushed.
(08:08:27)<jday>There'll be some polish for off-by-one pixel stuff and so forth, but that's all pretty much right.  I also need to get buffs actually working, and we should rework the buff announcement text so all the messages come up at once.
(08:09:09)<jday>+3 speed  ... pause ...  -1 defense ... pause ... BOOTS OF GETTING HURT QUICKLY
(10:05:42)<jday>Coolest bug.  My new "next target" binding for tab is in getTargetAccordingToKeypress -- which is used by movement, too.
(10:06:00)<jday>So pressing tab outside of targeting mode warps you to the nearest enemy.
(10:17:44)<jday>Should make it so you can shoot open doors and chests, just because.
(06:58:51)<mcfroogle>hey how's development going?
(07:16:10)<jday>mcfroogle: Brilliantly!  We've really cracked some of the worst problems clear open.
(07:18:31)<jday>My current checklist is mostly tiny stuff: [ ] remove icons when items are in equipment boxes   [ ] reposition Destroy icon  [ ] add bg glow around boxes  [ ] turn on item info panel  [ ] get buffs hooked back up  [ ] break chests and doors with fireball
(07:19:18)<jday>[ ] finalize targeting (tab mode)  [ ] make chests block monsters  [ ] many-to-many awareness (so monsters notice your minions properly)
(07:19:57)<jday>And as far as I'm concerned when that checklist is all checked, and presuming we don't add any new bugs, I'm done.
(07:20:31)<mcfroogle>sounds good :-)
(07:20:40)<mcfroogle>any idea how long it will take?
(07:21:18)<jday>I always underestimate -- it's a disease of the profession -- but it looks like a day's work to me.  Presuming I can get a day's work in today, should be tomorrow.
(07:23:29)<jday>randomnine fixed a couple of bugs and otherwise agreed that my list is exhaustive, so that's when we're going to need play testing.
(07:24:45)<jday>Ha.  To deluxe, we should add an octopode race (after dcss) that can wear two pairs of gloves, wield two weapons, and wear two rings.
(07:26:35)<mcfroogle>lol that would be pretty good :-)
(07:27:00)<jday>No hat, no armor, and no boots, though!
(07:27:37)<mcfroogle>could be intresting :-)
(07:27:39)<jday>Which reminds me -- I've been thinking hard about distinguishing classes by the equipment they can use.  Up for grabs are number of spell slots, number of potion slots, and the equipment slots.
(07:28:05)<jday>So if we come up with a way to distinguish equipment items from each other more clearly along class lines, that could be a really solid way of making them play differently.
(07:28:43)<jday>e.g., if rings generally provided spirit or did other similarly magical things, and wizards could use two rings but no helmet.
(07:28:51)<mcfroogle>yeah. how about diffrent chest and spell spawn rates for diffrent classes?
(07:29:07)<jday>That's definitely on the table.
(07:33:38)<mcfroogle>thats good and other ideas? are you working from the ideas sheet on google docs?
(07:42:51)<mcfroogle>just swapping to my netbook
(07:43:04)<mcfroogle_>done
(09:58:35)<mcfroogle_>so are there any features on the suggestion list thing you like?
(10:56:04)<jday>mcfroogle: I'll take a scan over it when this round is done, see if there's any low-hanging fruit that should go in.
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/12 +++
(12:02:54)<mcfroogle_>sorry for the delay :-s the IRC normally makes a noise but didn't
(12:05:34)<mcfroogle_>sounds good though. let me know when you have a test build ready :-)
(02:51:15)<mcfroogle>hey, hows it going?
(06:27:02)<jday>mcfroogle: It's great.  I have one silly bug -- were you here when I described it? -- but pretty much everything is working as it should.
(06:28:07)<mcfroogle>i don't think i was here at the time. whats the bug?
(06:36:27)<jday>I added a binding to tab to switch targeting to the next most distant enemy.  But the same input system is used for movement, so if you press tab you warp to the next enemy.
(06:36:38)<jday>It's pretty hilariously silly.
(06:37:02)<mcfroogle>lol ahh that must be fuuny. dagourous yet funny lol
(06:38:12)<jday>The last couple days have been the coolest since the first week I worked on the game, when I went on a rampage against every bit of unpolished gameplay I could and made variety among the monsters.
(06:39:15)<mcfroogle>sounds awesome :-)
(06:39:52)<jday>The ranking is something like this for me: game design > systems programming > game programming > business programming > long, painful game debugging.  I'd been stuck on the worst scale of that for about three weeks.
(06:40:41)<mcfroogle>yeah
(06:43:05)<mcfroogle>so next theres going to test version then any small fixes, the normal release? what then? a break?
(06:47:10)<jday>Probably no break, really.  I'll split my time up better than I have been, but I think we're diving right into Plus/Deluxe.
(06:48:29)<jday>I'd love to be making some progress on my own games or writing, and I haven't really been doing that.  With cq unbroken the stress level plummets, and I can allow myself that luxury.
(07:03:41)<mcfroogle>thats good to know. don't push yourself too hard though. what are going to be the main features of deluxe? save/load?
(07:12:07)<mcfroogle>hi tametick
(07:13:56)<tametick>hihi
(07:14:55)<jday>Updating some of the awareness checks now so I can do tab/shift-tab exactly right, but we're on the home stretch.
(07:15:29)<jday>This same stuff will also fix the ability that monsters have to shoot at unseen targets.
(07:16:10)<mcfroogle>thats good should make it all run better
(07:16:20)<mcfroogle>play better i mean
(07:18:29)<jday>Definitely.  I've pondered doing targeting hotkeys for enemies -- press 12345 to pick a spell and a number shows up on each monster.  Two keystrokes and you're done.  Given tametick's original vision, though, I'd rather find ways to make the mouse version play better.
(07:19:31)<mcfroogle>thats sounds great. and yeah worth looking at mouse options 2 becasue it will be ket for touch screen optimisation
(07:19:37)<tametick>can do both ;)
(07:20:09)<mcfroogle>yeah :-) i know, should be good
(07:20:24)<mcfroogle>any thing your going to mouse controls?
(07:22:16)<jday>I do think that a "close enough" targeting principle should be at work, but I'm not sure exactly what yet -- but clicking close to an enemy should fire at it.
(07:22:55)<tametick>yeah
(07:23:02)<jday>At its most extreme, it would target the closest enemy, no matter how far, and you'd click closer to yourself than to any enemy to cancel.
(07:23:26)<tametick>can make the targeting area bigger, and if 2 or more overlap choose the one whose center you are closer to\
(07:23:55)<tametick>or that
(07:25:08)<jday>Similar to inventory.  The previous scheme of overlapping respected the width of the item you were dropping, but not the width of the cell.
(07:26:19)<jday>Making the bounding box bigger -- so it stretches to the right edge -- of all of the spell buttons will help, too, but I'm not sure if it's enough.  Playing with hotkeys to pick a spell + easy mouse targeting isn't too bad.
(07:26:42)<mcfroogle>How about when you cast a spell a glowing circle appears around your player and you drag it over the enemy that way when using touch controls you know for sure where it's going to cast
(07:27:00)<tametick>no your idea is better
(07:27:59)<tametick>(your == jday's)
(07:30:04)<mcfroogle>yeah fair enough, just a suggestion :-)
(07:47:17)<mcfroogle>anything other intresting ideas for anything?
(10:02:02)<mcfroogle>so what time is it where you are?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/13 +++
(12:17:44)<jday>mcfroogle: 16:00 here now.
(12:28:54)<mcfroogle>wow quite a diffrence then. is now 00.07
(01:48:25)<mcfroogle_>so hows dev going?
(01:41:39)<mcfroogle>Hey how's development going?
(01:41:46)<mcfroogle>or having a bit of a break?
(05:13:06)<mcfroogle>hey tametick hows things going?
(05:59:18)<mcfroogle>so hows dev going jday?
(06:00:27)<jday>mcfroogle: Glancing over my checklist presently.  Looks like the only things I really have to do is a rewrite to how we're tracking buffs -- the old system didn't stack them appropriately most of the time.
(06:01:01)<jday>I'd like to do some of the AI stuff, having monsters have awareness scores for other monsters, but at the moment I'm not sure if I'm going to care enough about that today.
(06:01:09)<mcfroogle>fair enough, think it'll take long?
(06:04:15)<jday>Not at all.  You're eight hours later than I am -- I suppose I'll try to get a test build out that you can try while the hour is reasonable.
(06:07:01)<mcfroogle>yeah ok. don't worry to much about time though, i've not got uni tomorrow, just looking for a job :-s
(06:47:21)<tametick>mcfroogle: pretty good all around
(06:47:49)<mcfroogle>good good what are the plans for the furture?
(06:48:01)<tametick>for me?
(06:48:08)<tametick>or for cardinal quest?
(06:48:45)<jday>I think he means for civilization, tametick.  He's trying to trick us into giving away our time-travel secrets.
(06:49:10)<tametick>:O
(06:49:14)<tametick>you can prove nothing!
(06:50:19)<mcfroogle>lol :-)
(06:50:38)<mcfroogle>kinda both really. CQ, and both of your personal projects
(06:50:42)<tametick>i'm not that involved with cardinal quest anymore mcfroogle, it's now mostly jday & randomnine 
(06:51:05)<tametick>as for me, i started working on a new game a couple of weeks ago. it's still quite early
(06:51:18)<tametick>but i am hoping it would not take as long as cq to complete 
(06:52:21)<mcfroogle>thats good. if you ever need feel free to email me a test vertion and i'll give it a go for you
(06:52:40)<tametick>sure :)
(06:55:36)<mcfroogle>ok :-)
(06:56:15)<mcfroogle>how about you jday?
(07:01:06)<jday>Well, we've got a pretty big plate bunch of changes already queued up for cq.  I'm not sure how far I'll go before I get tired of it if I don't intersperse it with something else, so I've already gone back and started poking at Freehold again.
(07:02:00)<jday>This whole experience has convinced me that writing a Flash game of my own would probably be a good idea -- don't know which idea to throw into that furnace, but it should probably happen.
(07:02:45)<mcfroogle>i heard that flash is discontinuing flash for mobile platforms :-s
(07:04:08)<jday>Well, I'd be using Haxe.  If I want to target mobile platforms (and maybe I do), I guess I could do something with Lua, with which I'm quite familiar.
(07:04:42)<mcfroogle>yeah fair enough. shouldn't be too much of a problem for developers hopefully
(07:31:09)<tametick>jday: i am using haxe with nme for auro
(07:31:15)<tametick>works fine on my android phone
(07:31:28)<tametick>it's the same as targeting flash
(10:54:42)<mcfroogle>so hows it going?
(11:21:32)<mcfroogle>So hows it going?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/14 +++
(08:50:50)<jday>mcfroogle: I opened another line of code changes when my connection failed yesterday.  Getting buffs worked out.
(08:51:15)<mcfroogle>fair enough :-) tell me when you're done and i'll give it a go
(08:51:23)<mcfroogle>did you want my email?
(08:52:08)<jday>That'll work.  The alternative would be to upload it to a free download site like tametick used to do -- yeah, I think I prefer the email option.
(08:56:21)<mcfroogle>yeah ok email is: mcfroogle@hotmail.com
(08:56:59)<mcfroogle>i can feedback that way if your offline too. fell free to send me things to test without notice
(08:59:38)<mcfroogle>oh and can't compile things on my computer. on windows so requires lots of installation of junk.
(09:19:15)<mcfroogle>I'm going to have a shower. i'll talk again later
(09:26:24)<wl>So there is a "public" test version now?
(10:00:53)<mcfroogle>hey i'm back now. and i don't know about that. you'll have to speek to jday himself
(10:01:57)<mcfroogle>have you tested any of the previous dev versions?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/15 +++
(02:38:18)<jday>wl: I've got a short list of 126 errors, most of which are trivial, and the moment they're all thwacked away like a game of whack-a-mole, it's as good as up.
(12:50:24)<tametick>randomnine: when you get here can you try replacing all the cutscene fonts from the main text font to the dungeon font used for the menu?
(12:50:33)<tametick>i think it's big enough to be legible with it
(12:55:13)<randomnine>what do you mean?
(12:55:28)<randomnine>oh, okay, change the cutscenes to use the dungeon font
(12:55:30)<randomnine>will do
(12:55:57)<tametick>thanks
(12:55:59)<tametick>well
(12:56:08)<tametick>see if it doesn't make them unreadable first :p
(12:56:13)<tametick>might need to change the size too
(12:56:29)<randomnine>just triaging atm, got around a dozen bugs to plough through :D
(12:56:32)<tametick>i think dungeon is much smaller than the other font at the same size
(12:56:38)<randomnine>ok, good to know
(12:56:44)<tametick>cool
(12:56:46)<tametick>thanks
(12:58:28)<randomnine>np
(12:59:05)<tametick>is jday finished with his ui fix?
(01:01:39)<randomnine>yeah
(01:01:57)<randomnine>still a lot of fallout to deal with, but only a few critical issues
(01:02:02)<tametick>so are we ready for 1.2?
(01:02:06)<tametick>oh ok
(01:02:14)<randomnine>atm it crashes when you quit a game
(01:02:21)<randomnine>and weapon/item buffs aren't applied
(01:02:22)<tametick>hrm
(01:02:28)<tametick>yeah that's pretty critical 
(01:02:38)<randomnine>then there's another 10 or so bugs we need to resolve first unless we plan on doing a 1.2.1 later
(01:02:56)<tametick>i am pretty sure there will be a 1.2.1 anyway 
(01:03:04)<tametick>but should resolve all the bugs we know of first
(01:03:13)<tametick>players will find new bugs regardless
(01:03:14)<randomnine>stuff like the stat buffs being displayed wrongly/inconsistently and item descriptions not showing in the inventory
(01:03:31)<tametick>doesn't sound like very tough bugs to fix
(01:03:44)<randomnine>yeah, just quite a few little things. shouldn't take long
(01:03:49)<tametick>i would suggest fixing anything that doesn't require huge sweeping rewrites of a ton of code
(01:03:53)<randomnine>haha
(01:04:11)<randomnine>yeah, that won't be necessary
(01:07:34)<tametick>cool
(06:28:00)<randomnine>it hurts me slightly that GameUI.setActive() sets the UI inactive.
(06:48:16)<randomnine>there we go! about half of the bugs fixed, including most of the more serious ones
(06:48:25)<randomnine>jday: item buffs are applied now, so that's sorted
(06:48:48)<randomnine>Tab still lets you mystically attack stuff though
(06:52:12)<randomnine>jday: two questions about changes that could be by design... firstly, using a potion now takes a turn. intentional?
(06:52:34)<randomnine>secondly, "Fear" now lasts indefinitely and is broken when you hit the enemy. also intentional?
(06:59:06)<randomnine>another day of fixing stuff and we should have a decent test version for 1.2 ^_^
(07:41:48)<tametick>\o/
(09:06:25)<randomnine>jday: another major bug in there, if you have 5 spells equipped then they can get overwritten when you pick up a new spell instead of it going into your inventory
(09:42:22)<mcfroogle>hey hows things going?
(11:16:05)<jday>Now that I'm back on the internet, I can report in!  Hoorah.
(11:16:21)<mcfroogle_>fair enough :-) glade your back
(11:16:51)<jday>I'm slogging through the consequences of "one last small change, I swear!" -- redoing buffs and timed effects so they all flow through one central point.  It'll give us much more control over effect interactions than we have now.
(11:17:21)<jday>Also the ability to put other effects on items -- like, I'm not sure what it would mean to make a ring of invisibility, but we'll totally be able to do that.
(11:21:25)<tametick>btw did you guys remove all startup items at some point?
(11:21:37)<jday>(I do think that more magical magical items will make the game more fun -- a thing of regeneration, a thing of invisibility, a thing of vampirism.)
(11:21:50)<tametick>i think i'm a couple days out of date but i started with pretty much nothing i think
(11:21:57)<tametick>or at least it didn't show on the inv screen
(11:21:58)<jday>tametick: Nope.  A few classes even get extra items -- is it bugged in the checked in version?
(11:22:04)<jday>Hmm.
(11:22:12)<tametick>i''l update
(11:23:35)<tametick>yep seems to be working now
(11:38:17)<mcfroogle_>sorry for the delay. there was a fire alarm so had to go out side (i live in student halls)
(11:38:30)<mcfroogle_>but yeah do you need me to test CQ?
(11:48:17)<jday>mcfroogle: Definitely!  I got slowed down by being stuck on the phone with my isp during my best working hours yesterday.  I wouldn't object to having tametick give you the version he's looking at -- but there are a few known flaws that are getting fixed right now, so it's maybe not ideal.
(11:49:42)<mcfroogle_>proberly best if i wait then. could you email me it when it's finished and i'll give you feedback sometime tomorrow?
(11:51:38)<jday>I'm quite eager to, mcfroogle.  I have your address at the ready for it.  One of the worst things about working on some of my own personal projects is that I was not following the "release early, release often" mantra -- usually a mistake.
(11:51:47)<jday>It's so much fun to talk to people about what you've made.
(11:52:42)<mcfroogle_>i'm glade you like it. feel free to send any of your other works :-)
(11:54:34)<mcfroogle_>same goes to you tametick :-)
(11:55:18)<tametick>cheers :)
(11:55:33)<tametick>yeah i should have probably been releasing cq more often pre 1,0 too
(11:55:56)<tametick>i think so far it averages a release once every month or 2
(11:56:38)<tametick>but i think that with jday massive rewrite there are no places in the code the really require starting from scratch 
(11:56:48)<tametick>so hopefully future release could be made more often
(11:56:56)<mcfroogle_>yeah i think when things get started it's easier for slower updates
(11:57:47)<mcfroogle_>and yeah it seems you've made things much easier for yourselves which is good
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/16 +++
(12:10:40)<mcfroogle_>I'm going to bed now. got to be up early ish tomorrow. fell free to email me stuff over the night. good night
(12:16:36)<jday>Yeah, tametick has it right -- I think this is the last thing that really had me worried for the future of the source.
(09:16:00)<randomnine>jday: i pushed a patch that applies + displays item buffs because testing later levels is impossible otherwise
(09:16:17)<randomnine>rev 1460, if you're doing your own version then just roll that back when you merge
(04:22:00)<mcfroogle>hi
(04:24:08)<mcfroogle>hows development going?
(04:25:44)<randomnine>killing bugs :) should have a version ready for testing soon
(04:26:19)<mcfroogle>ok :-)
(04:43:57)<tametick>awesome :)
(05:34:47)<mcfroogle>so how's your currect project going tametick?
(06:00:11)<tametick>haven't done much todayu
(06:00:19)<tametick>a bit sick and demotivated at the moment
(06:13:23)<mcfroogle>oh how comes? whats wrong?
(06:20:25)<jday>mcfroogle: I can't speak for Ido, but I know it takes a huge amount of skill just to stay motivated day in and day out when you don't have an office to meet people in person -- I mean, it's hard enough with one.
(06:20:57)<jday>Your attention wanders, you wonder if what you're doing will really work out, you're terrified of going down dead-ends and having to throw away code because unlike in an office setting, no one can see how fast you're typing.
(06:20:57)<mcfroogle>yeah thats fair enough really. didn't think much about that
(06:21:39)<jday>And when you throw a bit of illness on top of that, you force yourself to sit in front of your ide for a few hours and then trudge off in disgust.
(06:22:03)<jday>That's why constant releases (more often than I've been doing) are so helpful, and all the feedback we get -- it makes up for the fact that in physical space, we're sitting here alone.
(06:22:26)<tametick>yeah pretty much
(06:22:38)<tametick>not having coworkers is a big part of it 
(06:23:26)<tametick>it's part of the reason why i'm doing a project where i'm only responsible for the coding 
(06:23:39)<tametick>i'm happy to let someone else do the planning/design/business stuff for a change 
(06:23:55)<tametick>not to mention not to have to worry about getting graphics & music 
(06:25:07)<tametick>i am still slowly brewing the idea for my next game after that, it is turning more and more into primarily a multiplayer game and also closer and closer to chess (and further from traditional roguelikes)
(06:26:36)<tametick>i find online cooperations or even just communities do help out at least somewhat with the professional loneliness btw
(06:26:48)<tametick>the hardest parts of cq were the ones where i was working on it alone 
(06:31:32)<mcfroogle>yeah is understandable really. hopefully i help a bit (even just a little) by giving feedback
(06:32:12)<tametick>getting player feedback is generally well appreciated :)
(06:36:06)<mcfroogle>good :-)
(07:37:37)<jday>Bam!  Another ten errors gone.
(07:47:01)<mcfroogle>nice :-)
(08:19:16)<jday>mcfroogle: Unrelated to cq, but a recent test on Freehold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkSQpDQgDXk
(08:20:36)<mcfroogle>nice, looking good :-) real potential
(09:00:37)<jday>mcfroogle: The transparent out-of-fov thing doesn't look too weird or too much like a shortcut?
(09:02:25)<mcfroogle>i don't know. hard to tell. maybe if it was totally black but you also have the problem that that could make it look boring.maybe a layer of fog over the transparency
(09:03:16)<mcfroogle>or maybe once discover it stays there just very dark, but i don't know if thats what your going for?
(09:05:31)<jday>Compare it to this, for one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8EJYI1lBGY&feature=related
(09:08:00)<mcfroogle>think i prefure that one. what do you think? what made you change it?
(09:08:59)<jday>Out-of-sight needs to be distinct from dark; there's no way to make that distinction clear -- some colors will look stupid, other colors will look too much like black.
(09:09:39)<jday>I mean, I can change the reflection effect for the sky to make it into a more suitable background, but for gameplay reasons it helps to have a distinct image there.
(09:10:39)<mcfroogle>oh yeah good point. proberly best to keep it transparent then.
(09:11:43)<jday>There are certainly options -- like misting out the visuals of the sky below, as per your suggestion -- that I'll have to try.  I also think I want to try partial transparency instead of burn-out along the edges.
(09:14:04)<tametick>it seems confusing to me
(09:14:12)<tametick>but it might just be something you get used to
(09:15:03)<mcfroogle>transparency sounds like a good option
(09:15:32)<mcfroogle>or maybe quite a strong feathering effect
(09:17:22)<jday>tametick: Yeah, it's really hard to see it if you're not the one moving it around, so I know a demo will help.  It's made much worse by my total lack of control over the capture rate -- I'll pan the camera to look at something, sit there for a second, and then move along, and in the video it just keeps rolling right on past.
(09:18:02)<mcfroogle>yeah can't be helpful what recording software was that?
(09:19:51)<jday>xvidcap
(09:21:24)<mcfroogle>fair enough. not many of the free ones are good sadly. thing most people use Fraps
(09:30:56)<jday>I run that game on Linux, and I doubt this netbook will be beefy enough for it.
(09:32:54)<mcfroogle>oh yeah fair enough. i use a netbook quite a bit too.
(10:44:10)<mcfroogle>oh yeah you posted on twitter about if games are ok on mobile devices in only landscape. did you come to a conclution about that?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/17 +++
(12:20:37)<tametick>mcfroogle: yes
(12:20:47)<tametick>that it;s not a problem
(12:20:56)<tametick>and now i'll head to bed
(12:21:01)<mcfroogle>ok, good night
(03:32:05)<mcfroogle>Hey
(08:33:14)<randomnine>OK, it's finally getting there
(08:33:39)<mcfroogle>thats good
(08:33:53)<mcfroogle>whats going on?
(08:33:59)<randomnine>got about a dozen known issues but nothing game breaking at this point
(08:34:20)<randomnine>uploading a first beta of 1.2 now :)
(08:35:24)<randomnine>major changes from 1.1c:
(08:36:01)<randomnine>- character stats, mob stats, items rebalanced. speed values are generally higher and speed buffs are less dominating
(08:36:29)<randomnine>- new high-level magical weapon item
(08:36:37)<wl>Uhh, just when I have no time to test, well, hopefully I'll have time later today
(08:37:07)<randomnine>- inventory system is much more stable
(08:37:37)<randomnine>- when casting spells against enemies from the keyboard, Tab cycles through available targets
(08:38:34)<randomnine>- different classes now make different automatic item choices that support their dominant play styles, but all alternative good items are kept in inventory
(08:39:16)<randomnine>- using a potion now takes a turn, which is probably not something that'll stay in. but hey!
(08:39:34)<randomnine>http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-dev-20111117-2000.zip
(08:47:15)<mcfroogle>I'll give it a try in a sec :-) just came off the phone to the estate agent
(08:51:58)<randomnine>cool :)
(08:56:28)<mcfroogle>Little "problem" i always forget wether items or spells are 1-5 and used to hover over them to remember but it no longer says the keyboard shortcut
(08:59:38)<mcfroogle>guessing it may have been removed for when it's ported to a keyboardless playfor?
(08:59:43)<mcfroogle>*platform
(09:06:34)<randomnine>ah, no, that's a bug
(09:11:59)<jday>randomnine: Where have your recent changes been concentrated?  I've been working pretty heavily in CqActor and CqItem -- reworking how buffs work, and I'm very happy with what's shaped up.
(09:12:49)<jday>It's basically a much more declarative approach -- there's a new ActorStats class that has all the base stats and also booleans for every status effect we actually use.  Every actor has a baseStats and a stats (players also have prefs).
(09:13:54)<jday>stats gets recomputed from baseStats and from the buffs on items, which are also ActorStats.  So we can easily add a ring of invisibility (which is a poor example because you'd never break out of being invisible and it would be sickeningly overpowered with no other rule changes, but it's the best example so far.)
(09:16:37)<mcfroogle>is there a new type of wall block? looks like theres one with a crack down it
(09:19:18)<jday>I think that's been there, but --
(09:19:49)<randomnine>jday: just grab the latest from the repository, i tend to push every couple hours
(09:21:22)<randomnine>most of the stuff i've been fixing has been around the inventory code
(09:21:34)<jday>randomnine: That's my tendency when I'm not doing big stupid stuff that stays unbuildable for a long time.  I never commit when it doesn't build.
(09:21:45)<jday>Ok, great.  Odds are very good that it will remain a simple merge.
(09:21:50)<randomnine>i also added stuff for factoring in buffs
(09:22:19)<randomnine>CqBag has an equippedBuff() function
(09:23:11)<jday>Excellent!  That lines up perfectly, actually.
(09:23:24)<randomnine>lovely.
(09:24:34)<randomnine>actually, there're a few things i was meaning to ask you.
(09:24:49)<randomnine>firstly: potions now take a turn to use. was that intentional?
(09:25:21)<mcfroogle>Just saying i think it's good
(09:25:28)<randomnine>secondly: Fear now appears to last indefinitely, or at least until you hit them. intentional?
(09:25:31)<mcfroogle>i would actully take time to drink
(09:25:53)<jday>Potions started taking time to drink before my bag changes -- at least, when I checked, they did.
(09:26:15)<jday>So I should have asked the same question.  I was all for having them take no time, since then a potion of healing is slightly better than a healing spell, etc.
(09:26:38)<randomnine>mm.
(09:26:43)<mcfroogle>oh yeah didn't think of that
(09:27:27)<jday>I actually thought it was kind of cool when spells took an extra turn to activate, but certainly too cruel.
(09:28:27)<randomnine>haha
(09:28:46)<randomnine>oh, there's a simple fix for Heal in Classic
(09:28:58)<randomnine>we could have it apply a small -speed buff or similar
(09:29:07)<randomnine>that'd make it much better
(09:30:39)<mcfroogle>that would discurage people a bit from using it in battle
(09:32:04)<jday>I like the idea of a -defense.  You're healthy but vulnerable.
(09:32:33)<mcfroogle>how long would that last?
(09:33:21)<jday>Six turns, maybe?
(09:33:24)<jday>Then again, you can just back-and-forth dance enemies if you're faster than them.  Hmm.
(09:33:54)<mcfroogle>ok.
(09:34:18)<mcfroogle>oh randomine any idea why theres a gray square above the players icon?
(09:36:31)<mcfroogle>it vanished when i changed floor
(09:36:39)<mcfroogle>was on floor 4
(09:37:42)<jday>randomnine: One of my favorite consequences of these changes is that we no longer have to add the life buff every time we check hp -- that was madness.
(09:41:46)<mcfroogle>i don't know if it's new but i like how the level i'm playing has floors that arn't just square they have lumps missing which is nice
(09:42:55)<jday>We'll try to take more advantage of that kind of thing, mcfroogle.
(09:43:29)<mcfroogle>yeah :-) should be good. was that actully new? or was i just lucky to find a few floors like that
(09:44:54)<mcfroogle>also what new items are there? the "superb" items?
(09:47:20)<mcfroogle>anouther thing. no more descriptions about the effects of potions. i always forget what they raise and decrease. new players won't know either
(09:47:51)<mcfroogle>oh my bad you can tell from the inv
(09:52:09)<mcfroogle>floor 7 and still not found heal :-s
(09:52:13)<mcfroogle>floor 7 and still not found heal :-s
(09:56:19)<mcfroogle>those purple ghasts just used mirror about 5 times had loads of them
(10:12:56)<mcfroogle>Bug: after using a sleep on a wearwolf he takes a move when you do then falls asleep
(10:18:57)<mcfroogle>compleated yay. no heal either
(10:20:58)<jday>Definitely the most satisfying win to get.
(10:22:38)<mcfroogle>yeah
(10:23:26)<mcfroogle>didn't use many potions either. alternated between sleep and that one that makes them fight for you (forgotten it's name
(10:25:37)<jday>Oh, yeah.  The game is definitely easier than it needs to be -- even without pushing the 20 minute victory time or risking making it unfair, we could tune it to be harder.  But there's only so much abuse a casual player will take before going back to zen gardening.
(10:27:41)<mcfroogle>yeah exsactly. it's a very hard balance to deal
(10:28:23)<mcfroogle>unless if after the charecter selection screen theres a dificulty one so hard core games can push themselves
(10:48:10)<mcfroogle>just got error when using polymorph on a Kobald trickster should i copy and paste error?
(10:54:02)<jday>Yes, please!
(10:55:36)<mcfroogle>i'll do a screen shot
(10:59:12)<mcfroogle>here you go:
(10:59:13)<mcfroogle>http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/277/cqerror.png
(11:01:36)<mcfroogle>resized error box so all visable http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9242/cqerror2.png
(11:02:18)<mcfroogle>oh, strange clicking continue made it carry on working
(11:02:58)<mcfroogle>the error happens again each time i try to reselct my targer
(11:04:48)<mcfroogle>after deselecting the spell (by clicking on a non castable spot) i now can't cast the spell again
(11:17:24)<mcfroogle>this is a screenshot displaying the strange grey square in the top left of the screen
(11:17:25)<mcfroogle>http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5285/cqerror3.png
(11:29:36)<tametick>also buttom left
(11:29:51)<tametick>btw alt+print screen takes a shot of only the 1 window
(11:31:48)<mcfroogle>yeah i know but before i was trying to capture both the error and the screen and 3rd picture i forgot lol
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/18 +++
(12:30:03)<jday>mcfroogle: Good set of games there.
(12:30:31)<mcfroogle>lol thanks. i mainly play indie games really
(12:32:58)<mcfroogle>most of those title are from humble indie bundle
(12:35:21)<mcfroogle>lol your proberly wondering about the folder called crimescene photos lol
(12:35:39)<mcfroogle>i'm studying forensic science
(12:45:47)<jday>mcfroogle: I notice only what I feel invited to notice, honestly.  I'll look at obvious links to games, but I'm not going to scan folder names.  But that's cool -- how far are you in your studies?
(12:46:23)<mcfroogle>first half of my second year
(12:47:30)<jday>On a scale of 1 to 10, where 2 is CSI and 4 is Bones, where would you say you are so far?
(12:48:22)<mcfroogle>well CSI is appuling when it comes to reality so that would be about -5 and bones is ok so yeah about a 4 and i'm proberly about a 7
(12:49:44)<mcfroogle>i would think anyway lol
(12:50:03)<jday>I meant my scale as I put it -- Bones is ok, but it's still kind of annoying.  CSI is appalling, but I can imagine worse, so it's a 2.  It's a pretty steep scale.
(12:50:30)<mcfroogle>ahh fair enough :-) inthat case about a 5 or a 6
(12:54:23)<jday>I dearly want to make a show that's as bad about everything as CSI is about science.  "What are we waiting for?"  "I'm starting the car.  The fuel lines are up and running.  The spark plugs are engaging.  Oh no!  The fuel light is on!"  [scary music plays]  "Oh, thank God.  It was a false alarm."
(12:55:01)<mcfroogle>Lol would be awesome. what would it be called lol
(01:31:44)<mcfroogle>i'm going to bed in a minue past 01.00
(01:32:15)<mcfroogle>won't be on this weekend i'm affraid fell free to email though if you need anything. cya :-)
(04:22:05)<mcfroogle>hey
(04:22:13)<tametick>sup
(04:22:29)<mcfroogle>not much, how are you?
(04:23:08)<tametick>pretty good. finally wrote up the game idea i had in my head for weeks & play tested it in board game form yesterday :)
(04:23:41)<tametick>still work in progress, but it's coming along really well i think: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FuQd3s6xSHBl9R87TPGC_rPQ0uuhld3fFy2Za3spJ0Q/edit
(04:23:43)<mcfroogle>nice, whats the idea? and how did the test go?
(04:24:09)<tametick>the test revealed that the units were totally unbalanced, but i think i fixed most of that now
(04:24:14)<tametick>but it was fun
(04:24:29)<tametick>slower paced than i expected, the match lasted about 40 minutes
(04:26:09)<tametick>felt a lot like chess only that none of the usual pattern recognition works :) it's quite interesting how some seemingly minor changes (e.g. terrain type) can totally change the game
(04:30:19)<mcfroogle>yeah. and all looks great :-) good idea
(04:30:58)<tametick>thanks :)
(04:31:44)<mcfroogle>got to go soon i'm afraid going home from my uni accomodation. won't be back until tuesday night
(04:32:45)<tametick>have a nice weekend
(04:36:27)<mcfroogle>thank you :-) you to
(04:36:45)<mcfroogle>bye :-)
(11:54:13)<jday>randomnine: You around?  Are you going to be working on cq the next five hours or so?  Once I'm back from some errands, I'm planning on starting my merge.  It'll be easy this time, I think, since I haven't moved blocks of code around like I did last time.
(11:54:31)<randomnine>over the next five hours i will primarily be sleeping
(11:54:48)<jday>Perfect.  I had the sense that my evening was your night, but I wasn't sure.
(11:55:02)<randomnine>it's 11:30pm here :D
(11:55:19)<randomnine>let me push a fix for that polymorph crash bug
(11:55:40)<jday>I'm mostly happy with my changes -- I'm not totally convinced about some of the details, but the architecture seems better and will make a lot of new effects easier.
(11:55:57)<jday>Have a good night's sleep; I'm out for a bit.
(11:56:30)<randomnine>- done
(11:56:57)<randomnine>cool. hope the merge goes well
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/19 +++
(01:57:23)<mcfroogle>hi didn't think i'd really be able to go on this weekend but should be able to in the night (my nights)
(02:14:16)<jday>mcfroogle: Just about to start another merge, and then there's some cleanup and finishing work, and then we're probably at another testing point.
(02:15:10)<mcfroogle>ok. i proberly won't be on itc much but you can email the build and i'll have a playthrough when i can :-)
(02:15:21)<mcfroogle>whats going to be new? or is it mainly background changes?
(02:16:29)<jday>Mostly background stuff at the moment, yeah, but I can throw in a bit of new content just for kicks.
(02:17:27)<mcfroogle>might as well leave it how it is, might make bugs.
(02:25:43)<jday>Naw.  New features aren't the usual source of bugs.  Big changes like this one cause some, but mostly they just accumulate as code is neglected and not tended to.
(02:26:41)<mcfroogle>fair enough. any ideas what to add?
(02:29:51)<jday>I'll probably make it possible for items to grant abilities -- a ring of invisibility would be really easy, for instance, except for a couple of design chalelnges that it presents.
(02:31:48)<mcfroogle>yeah fair enough
(02:32:24)<mcfroogle>how about something that increases the field of view? some sort of amulet or something
(02:37:33)<jday>I'd like that, although right now that's just an interface limitation; we can't show you more than we can fit on the screen.  Any idea how to fix that?
(02:38:01)<jday>I guess I could do something like clairvoyance from Brogue, that lets you see through doors.  I'd also like to try adding Regeneration.
(02:38:30)<mcfroogle>some sort of pan function purhaps?
(02:38:49)<mcfroogle>could be implimented to touchscreen with 2-finger movements
(02:49:51)<mcfroogle>might be intrested in this: http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/18/google-swiffy-extension-exports-flash-to-html5-actionscript-fan/
(05:49:35)<jday>Merge was easy.  Almost all the trouble had to do with our both changing lines pertaining to the life buff.  We also both fixed the target-while-moving bug; I prefer your fix, randomnine.
(08:49:25)<randomnine>cool
(08:51:39)<jday>I haven't pushed yet.  I left a couple of things unwired.  Looks like I have free time to work through it this afternoon, though.
(09:06:23)<randomnine>kk :D
(11:48:28)<mcfroogle>hey hows everything going?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/20 +++
(12:13:18)<jday>mcfroogle: A successful merge yesterday, followed by some wrap up work today.
(12:13:36)<mcfroogle>nice :-) add anything?
(12:57:15)<mcfroogle>oh yeah hows your game going tametick?
(01:09:35)<tametick>pretty good, play tested a more advanced version today at the local hacker space 
(01:19:01)<mcfroogle>thats good. how did it play?
(01:34:09)<mcfroogle>brb just restarting my PC for studpid itunes
(02:11:49)<mcfroogle>i'm back. sorry it took so long. computer would load up untill i unplugged my ipod. very unusual
(07:25:34)<mcfroogle>hey, how is everything?
(07:38:03)<mcfroogle>hey how's things jday?
(07:41:55)<jday>Eh, things are pretty good today.  Had a fire yesterday -- it was small and I put it out in time, but that can be fairly upsetting.
(07:42:49)<mcfroogle>oh, yeah must be upsetting. how did it start?
(07:44:36)<jday>A couple of tea candles in a cast iron teapot warmer with a mug of apple cider on it.  It was all quite quick and I'm not sure of the exact sequence of events, but when my wife found it flames were shooting out the side of the base and up about a foot.
(07:45:09)<jday>Literally, though, two puny tea candles.
(07:45:46)<jday>If it had been turned a different way, it would have lit either my wife's books or her computer.  Got a nice explosion tossing water on it.
(07:47:12)<mcfroogle>oh. glade your both ok
(08:02:05)<jday>Yeah.  Lots of scrubbing today -- waxy, apple-scented soot all of the place.
(08:08:24)<mcfroogle>oh yeah :-s must have take a while. hope everything is ok now
(09:23:48)<mcfroogle>hey again
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/21 +++
(07:46:36)<jday>cq is very easy when everyone accidentally has a damage multiplier of 0.
(08:31:18)<jday>Something is still up with damage multipliers, and effects aren't all working yet, but this is much cleaner code.  I'm happy with having done it -- although it'd be nice if life intervened less often with my pacing.
(08:58:27)<tametick>morning jday 
(08:58:36)<tametick>any word from randomnine in recent times?
(11:19:14)<randomnine>ello
(11:36:53)<tametick>sup randomnine 
(11:37:08)<tametick>how's it going?
(11:37:49)<randomnine>s'alright :D
(11:38:15)<randomnine>working through bugs again today
(11:38:45)<tametick>cool, cool
(11:38:53)<tametick>when are you guys planning on doing 1.2?
(11:38:59)<tametick>teh last of the classic releases?
(11:39:16)<randomnine>well
(11:40:24)<randomnine>when jday's done with these big changes
(11:40:28)<randomnine>it'll be about two days
(11:41:05)<tametick>are the big changes still related to the inventory screen/drag & drop?
(11:41:10)<tametick>or other big changes?
(11:41:16)<randomnine>or honestly i could just fix up the current version without the stuff he's doing now and call that 1.2
(11:41:28)<tametick>what would that miss?
(11:42:05)<randomnine>honestly i don't think it'd be noticeable in classic, i think the buff/effect stuff he's rewriting now is mostly future proofing
(11:42:14)<tametick>ok sounds good
(11:42:33)<tametick>keep in mind that there are very likley a bunch of new bugs that are still unknown 
(11:42:38)<tametick>and will be found by players
(11:42:58)<tametick>which is fine, but it means there will likely be at least a 1.2.1 
(11:43:39)<tametick>so just so you know you might need to do back porting of changes between jday's branch and the 1.2 branch for stuff like that
(11:43:54)<randomnine>yeah, that's fine
(11:43:58)<tametick>cool
(11:44:06)<tametick>ok that sounds great 
(11:44:26)<tametick>so more or less 2 days for 1.2 without the current buff system changes?
(11:45:02)<randomnine>and a day or two for thorough QA
(11:45:49)<randomnine>it can be ready middle of this week
(11:46:05)<tametick>sounds good :)
(05:52:42)<jday>Yeah, randomnine, this is fine with me.  My one worry is that there were a couple of fixes I made in the middle of these bigger changes -- there's a problem in trunk when you click on inventory icons when the inventory isn't showing.  It's easy to fix, though.
(05:53:30)<jday>There's also a brief moment where inventory icons appear in the upper left corner before going where they belong.  There are a few easy fixes for that, including just making proxies invisible to start with and setting them visible when assigning them to a slot.
(05:54:02)<randomnine>hmm.
(05:54:28)<randomnine>when do you think you'll next be able to check in? and how thoroughly tested are the changes you've been making?
(05:55:17)<jday>Well, merging is easy, so you can keep working on stuff you're doing; my next check-in should be soon, since the game was playable again last night.
(05:55:37)<randomnine>cool
(05:55:47)<jday>I need to finish making buff deltas show up the way I want them too -- that is, all at once.  It's pretty unclear right now.
(05:55:55)<randomnine>sounds good
(05:56:02)<randomnine>btw. quick thoughts on the following quick potion revamp?
(05:56:09)<randomnine>red = heal
(05:56:20)<randomnine>purple = recharges spells (all or most of the way)
(05:56:49)<randomnine>blue = +defense (potion icon has a shield decoration)
(05:57:09)<randomnine>green = +attack and +damage (combination of two old effects that fulfil the same role)
(05:57:15)<randomnine>and yellow remains +speed?
(05:57:26)<randomnine>with a few icon tweaks to clarify what's what
(05:57:52)<jday>I love it.
(05:57:57)<randomnine>i'm making potions last longer and be a bit rarer
(05:57:59)<randomnine>oh, also
(05:58:02)<randomnine>i'm trying out a change to Heal atm
(05:58:08)<randomnine>where it recharges as you gain XP.
(05:58:34)<randomnine>keep it equipped and it gives you two free heals a level at the cost of a spell slot
(05:58:52)<randomnine>rather than infinite heals forever
(06:00:28)<jday>Interesting mechanic!  Almost makes me wish that's how all spells charged.
(06:00:47)<wl>Errr, at least for the wizard, this should not be the case
(06:01:16)<wl>Being forced to go into melee because the spells aren't charged does not sound nice
(06:01:34)<randomnine>the charge-over-time works well for most stuff
(06:02:07)<randomnine>thief/wizard would be a lot less interesting if their abilities charged from xp
(06:02:19)<randomnine>but Heal, we have to do something radical like this to stop it breaking the game
(06:02:25)<randomnine>just not sure if it's too far
(06:02:40)<wl>Yeah, it has to be changed
(06:02:42)<randomnine>anyways, i'll do the potion fix and go from there.
(06:02:47)<randomnine>and post a build this evening
(06:02:51)<wl>I'm also still all for the approach of making healing different for each class
(06:02:56)<randomnine>yeah?
(06:02:59)<randomnine>how would that work?
(06:03:08)<wl>There were several ideas back then
(06:03:13)<wl>But I just like the general notion
(06:03:25)<wl>How exactly it would work for each class is up for debate
(06:03:49)<wl>But having a central mechanic like hp working different for each class sounds desirable to me
(06:04:13)<randomnine>huh.
(06:07:27)<jday>In some ways, binding it to xp does the trick -- doing whatever your class is supposed to do will let you kill your enemies and gain levels.
(06:24:02)<randomnine>right. this should be interesting.
(06:24:42)<randomnine>potions are all at least 3 times as good as they were and less than half as common
(06:24:55)<randomnine>except for health potions, which are just the same and still about as common
(06:25:23)<jday>I'd be all for making them about as common as they were and making the game really demand that you use them -- but that's for gametesters to comment on, so I'll be happy to wait for them.
(06:26:03)<randomnine>honestly i think they were just far too weak originally
(06:26:39)<randomnine>they need to be precious
(06:27:02)<tametick>i agree with jday 
(06:27:10)<tametick>common, powerful, but needed
(06:27:22)<tametick>we could get away with making the game much more difficult that way
(06:27:41)<randomnine>i disagree - i've observed that people start off playing the game without using potions
(06:28:03)<randomnine>and will only use potions when they get the hang of the systems and where the rough spots are
(06:28:30)<randomnine>because of this, if you make potions stronger and much more important, you don't really make the game harder - but you *do* make the learning curve a lot steeper
(06:28:51)<tametick>yeah i know they don't use them
(06:28:53)<tametick>but they should!
(06:28:57)<randomnine>hehe
(06:29:07)<tametick>well we can try your solution 
(06:29:12)<tametick>and see what people are saying
(06:29:27)<tametick>but i think we should eventually have some tutorial texts 
(06:29:31)<tametick>as part of the 1st level
(06:29:31)<randomnine>it's just a thought experiment at the moment
(06:29:35)<tametick>right
(06:29:41)<randomnine>to both make potions more awesome and clearer as to what they do
(06:29:49)<randomnine>atm they all look kinda the same and don't have very strong effects
(06:30:15)<randomnine>i dunno how it'll feel to play. we'll find out shortly though
(06:31:23)<tametick>sounds good
(06:58:53)<mcfroogle>Hey, how is everyone
(07:29:57)<randomnine>heya
(07:30:25)<tametick>hi
(07:32:28)<mcfroogle>hows things going? hows the game going? and the one for dinofarm
(07:32:51)<tametick>working on auro now, chugging along steadily :)
(07:33:12)<tametick>did some more play testing of my strategy game, and a friend of mine coded a version of it in js
(07:33:25)<tametick>but it's pretty much impossible to play without reading the design doc
(07:33:39)<tametick>it's mostly for us to play against each other 
(07:34:18)<mcfroogle>yeah heard about auro :-) what stage is it at? made any changes to your strategy game?
(07:34:47)<tametick>auro is only a couple weeks old, so not very far along
(07:35:03)<tametick>i made some changes, but i think it settled down now 
(07:35:38)<tametick>didn't change that much yesterday, just some balancing and trying to explain the rules more succinctly and clearly 
(07:36:58)<mcfroogle>fair enough. i in a game for a tutorial can be made that can show what to do better than words could
(08:12:22)<mcfroogle>wow  not sure what happened there missed words out, lol
(08:21:01)<mcfroogle>so tametick what are your plans for your game? online or local multiplayer
(08:21:39)<tametick>online
(08:23:24)<mcfroogle>thats good. was thinking it could work (not sure how well) if each player took a turn and then continues with what they're doing a purhaps come back an hour later a take there next move after the other player has
(08:24:04)<jday>The turns are really short, since you only move one piece.
(08:24:13)<randomnine>http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-dev-20111121-2000.zip
(08:24:21)<randomnine>test build for today!
(08:24:48)<mcfroogle>oh yeah course. and cool :-) whats changed?
(08:24:52)<randomnine>IN THIS DRAMATIC AND EXCITING BUILD:
(08:25:18)<randomnine>- The "Heal" spell now recharges as you gain XP. You will need to have it in a spell slot while you gain half a level before you can use it to heal.
(08:25:50)<randomnine>- Potions have changed dramatically. Apart from health potions, all of them are more powerful and less common.
(08:26:04)<randomnine>- There's now a Mana Potion which recharges all your spells when you use it.
(08:26:11)<mcfroogle>sounds intresting :-)
(08:26:19)<randomnine>(two of the other potions have been combined, so there're still only 5)
(08:26:40)<randomnine>I've also tweaked item/potion spawning and monster spawning a touch. low-level monsters will occasionally appear on higher levels now
(08:26:51)<randomnine>and, AI movement is slightly less predictable
(08:27:02)<randomnine>also a half-dozen bug fixes but hey :D
(08:28:18)<mcfroogle>awesome :-)
(08:28:39)<mcfroogle>i'll give it a go in a sec
(08:28:41)<randomnine>mostly curious about these issues: does the way "Heal" works now make sense? and, do potions feel valuable and worth using now?
(08:29:13)<randomnine>and, is it clearer what the different potions are from looking at them/tooltips? (changed the graphics a bit... it's not going to help much, but maybe it's enough)
(08:29:22)<mcfroogle>yeah i had that trouble before. completed it using about 4 potions in total
(08:30:04)<randomnine>i just played a game through and ended up using almost every potion i had during the last few levels
(08:30:26)<randomnine>though that did include getting my speed stat up to over 60 >_>
(08:30:53)<mcfroogle>lol matrix style
(08:30:57)<mcfroogle>bullet time
(08:31:02)<randomnine>i had Haste and two copies of Berserk... mana potions mean you can cast all three repeatedly
(08:31:17)<mcfroogle>oh yeah
(08:31:25)<tametick>sounds good randomnine!
(08:31:27)<randomnine>it's a bit like being able to drink 9 coca-leaf cocktails in a row before these changes
(08:31:34)<randomnine>hehe
(08:40:09)<jday>Are potions still set to take a turn?
(08:45:42)<randomnine>yup.
(08:46:10)<randomnine>it makes more sense that way anyway
(08:46:19)<randomnine>and potions are more powerful than spells now, so there's no balance issue
(09:26:10)<mcfroogle>what do i need to type into a IRC client to view this? been ages scince i've used one
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/22 +++
(12:14:38)<jday>We can potentially have weapons and armor that keep you from ever being invisible -- and we definitely need more cool status effects.
(05:37:15)<mcfroogle>hey, hows development going
(05:41:35)<randomnine>heyo
(05:41:46)<randomnine>working on a few polish items
(05:41:51)<randomnine>also just playing the game a lot
(05:42:34)<randomnine>haven't had any feedback from yesterday's build yet so i just need to run through a few times and try different stuff :D
(05:43:41)<mcfroogle>oh yeah sorry i wasn't too helpful can you send me the link again. on my PC now instead of my netbook so much easier to play. was 2watching a dvd yesterday too which didn't help
(05:43:51)<randomnine>sure!
(05:44:35)<randomnine>http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-dev-20111121-2000.zip
(05:47:12)<jday>randomnine: Yesterday's changes merged into mine with no trouble, which really surprised me!  I got effects and such working again -- I burned some time trying to think of a clean and convenient way to handle effects on equipped items, which was foolish.
(05:47:19)<mcfroogle>hard to dignose when lots of CPU is being used on a dvd. when i pressed an arrow key. sometimes it would me 3 times
(05:48:56)<jday>Still have a couple of things to do, and for now I've changed the effects and buffs into a single string that gets split on spaces and interpreted by a couple of classes that need it -- that'll be easy to improve, with some array notation or something, when we need to.  My thinking (though) is that we don't want to have to limit ourselves to however many buffs as we start expanding items.
(05:49:16)<jday>At the moment, I'm making it show all buffs from a particular spell or item all at once.
(05:49:26)<jday>(Well, that's not quite true -- at the moment I'm getting ready to make breakfast.)
(05:50:49)<randomnine>sounds good :D
(05:50:54)<randomnine>buffs and effects weren't limited before?
(05:55:26)<mcfroogle>funny how i've just had dinner and your having breakfast
(05:59:04)<mcfroogle>just a little thing would it be possable if when picking up items it says the name and then the stats that it brings?
(05:59:21)<randomnine>np
(05:59:30)<randomnine>yeah, it should give the name first
(05:59:45)<mcfroogle>yeah
(06:12:13)<mcfroogle>I used free on one of those blue creatues (forgotten there name) and it could still move?
(06:12:52)<mcfroogle>a Domanatrix
(06:15:10)<randomnine>freeze reduces speed... maybe not by enough
(06:15:20)<randomnine>problem being that the spiders use it too
(06:16:01)<mcfroogle>oh just the descriptions says "Freezes a monster in place for a short duration."
(06:21:45)<randomnine>good call, i'll fix that
(06:22:05)<mcfroogle>no worries. when you walk into a vanished enemy does it attack?
(06:23:03)<jday>mcfroogle: Attacking an invisible monster never hurts it -- whether it's you or something else being hit.
(06:24:15)<mcfroogle>ok, thanks in that case if it works best ways i won't suggest changing it. i was thinking that if you can predict where the enemy is going you desere to damage it. but in that case it's fair because it goes both ways
(06:30:05)<randomnine>any thoughts on the potions yet?
(06:30:52)<mcfroogle>i like that they are rarer and seems to be a good balance i belive.
(06:31:14)<mcfroogle>i like the heal recharge too. i was a little worried about it at first but seems ok
(06:35:08)<mcfroogle>maybe it could be reduced a little
(06:35:22)<randomnine>so you can use it a bit more often?
(06:36:33)<mcfroogle>yeah i think you said before it's when you've got xp for half a level. how about a 3rd?
(06:37:14)<randomnine>sure
(06:37:32)<mcfroogle>do you agree?
(06:37:44)<randomnine>yeah, i think that's a change worth trying
(06:37:59)<randomnine>since you don't tend to use it every time it maxes out, you wait for good opportunities to heal lots
(06:38:16)<mcfroogle>yeah
(06:58:03)<mcfroogle>oh anouther little thing. i'm not sure how easy it will be to do. but when casting a spell it's still traveling after the effect takes place. there should be a pause while the spell is travelling
(06:59:38)<randomnine>it doesn't actually matter
(07:00:05)<mcfroogle>i know it doesn't effect gameplay just sort of a presentation thing
(07:00:27)<randomnine>tbh i think it would hurt it more to have an unskippable pause
(07:01:34)<mcfroogle>yeah possably, fair enough
(07:16:58)<mcfroogle>ok, they seem to be the only thoughts and i can't see any problems
(07:17:09)<mcfroogle>will play through a few more times though
(07:22:35)<randomnine>cool ^_^
(07:43:03)<mcfroogle>New Humble Bundle out :-) www.humblebundle.com
(07:43:22)<wl>Yeah, too soon and again only one developer
(07:43:40)<wl>At least they seem to know that people want a "real" one, at the top it says #4 coming soon
(07:49:14)<mcfroogle>yeah can't wait for a real one :-)
(08:16:53)<mcfroogle>shame they're all strongly multiplayer based :-s are ok but occationally i'm in a single player mood and now is one of them
(09:44:33)<randomnine>uplink and darwinia are single player
(09:45:31)<mcfroogle>oh yeah. hadn't got round to them
(09:45:54)<mcfroogle>and the videos looked like they were i think
(09:57:13)<randomnine>nah :) uplink's totally single player, and 'multiwinia' is the multiplayer side of darwinia
(10:08:22)<mcfroogle>that makes sense lol, lol uplink is scary
(10:16:43)<mcfroogle>?
(10:16:59)<mcfroogle>woops that was ment for anouther window
(10:50:06)<randomnine>no dev build for today. got two bugs left and a couple polish items. i'll fix 'em tomorrow and that'll be 1.2 ready for final testing
(11:09:43)<mcfroogle>ok :-) sounds good
(11:42:23)<mcfroogle>going to be afk sort of in a min. playing games fullscreen
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/23 +++
(07:30:24)<jday>randomnine: So when dock said he was with you -- some kind of hackerspace or college or workplace, or a more metaphorical "with"?
(10:35:20)<randomnine>jday: cambridge indies, bunch of us meet up every tuesday or so
(03:00:09)<randomnine>tametick: d'you think you'd be able to haul in a few more testers? should have 1.2 ready this evening and there's hardly anyone to QA/give feedback atm
(03:01:19)<randomnine>also, would you mind updating the credits graphic? :D
(03:02:05)<wl>I should have time today
(03:02:11)<randomnine>awesome
(03:03:34)<tametick>randomnine: sure
(03:04:00)<tametick>tell me when it's ready and i will tweet/ask around in other channels? 
(03:04:04)<randomnine>okay, will do!
(03:04:42)<randomnine>got a half-dozen things to fix today, all minor
(03:31:22)<tametick>awesome 
(06:39:15)<mcfroogle>hey everyone how is dev going?
(06:40:58)<jday>mcfroogle: Looks like randomnine's current version is awfully close to being a release candidate.
(06:40:59)<tametick>pretty good
(06:41:05)<tametick>just implemented kicking monsers back in auto
(06:41:08)<tametick>*auro
(06:41:15)<tametick>which was a pain in the butt becuase of the hex grid
(06:41:29)<tametick>jday, randomnine: \o/
(06:41:52)<mcfroogle>jday: that sounds good. :-) and sounds good tamtick. feel free to contact me if it needs testing
(07:20:09)<tametick>will do
(07:20:27)<randomnine>yup, down to 2 items now
(07:21:42)<randomnine>tametick: when d'you think you'll have a chance to update the credits image? these other two bugs should only take an hour or two to fix
(07:22:02)<tametick>feel free to update it randomnine 
(07:22:05)<tametick>it's just a png
(07:22:21)<randomnine>i don't have the source image or font though
(07:22:25)<tametick>i might have the gimp file around 
(07:22:41)<tametick>font is dungeon.ttf in the resource dir
(07:22:48)<randomnine>and i don't actually know everyone's names. haha
(07:23:19)<tametick>only ones you need to add are yourself and jday
(07:23:31)<tametick>(which is already on the credits list, you just need to move his name)
(07:23:51)<tametick>you have a dropbox account?
(07:23:57)<randomnine>nope
(07:24:20)<tametick>can you get one? i have a bunch of cq-resource on dropbox that i can share with you
(07:24:32)<randomnine>OK
(07:24:35)<randomnine>where should i put mine and jday's names?
(07:24:45)<wl>At the top!
(07:24:50)<randomnine>:p
(07:24:57)<tametick>jday's name is already there, but in the supporters list
(07:25:06)<tametick>hold on with dropbox, let me give you a link
(07:25:16)<tametick>so i get 250mb free for bringing you in :p
(07:26:46)<tametick>sent you an invite by email
(07:27:26)<randomnine>haha. k!
(07:27:52)<jday>Our billing on the credits is probably the most important thing for us, honestly!
(07:27:54)<tametick>sent jday 1 too
(07:28:03)<randomnine>yeah, where should i put the names? you've got two Programming sections, one at the top and one under Contributors
(07:28:14)<randomnine>i don't know what the reasoning is behind who's where
(07:28:33)<tametick>the 2nd one is for less significant contributers 
(07:28:44)<tametick>ever play angband?
(07:28:50)<randomnine>nope
(07:29:02)<tametick>it shows at the beginning the maintainers/devs starting with the current ones
(07:29:11)<tametick>and the listing the previous ones one after the other
(07:29:15)<tametick>with the oldest last
(07:29:41)<tametick>maybe start with a "deluxe edition" at the very top & put the 2 of you in it
(07:29:49)<tametick>and then the rest as it is now
(07:29:59)<tametick>might need to move things around a bit
(07:30:08)<randomnine>okay, so where should i put our names?
(07:30:09)<tametick>but you can put the 2 of you first, i don't mind
(07:30:38)<tametick>Deluxe Edition: randomnine, jday \nProgramming: Ido Yehieli...
(07:30:39)<tametick>and so on
(07:30:54)<tametick>just push everything 2 line further and put yourselves at the top
(07:31:55)<tametick>tell me once you are on dropbox and i'll share the resources with you
(07:32:25)<randomnine>...shall i just put us in Programming for now? since there's no deluxe edition just yet
(07:32:30)<randomnine>(jday: any preference?)
(07:32:40)<tametick>ok
(07:32:53)<tametick>doesn't bother me either way
(07:33:25)<randomnine>i have a dropbox account now, yes
(07:33:26)<jday>The Deluxe Edition take might be easier to talk about.
(07:34:16)<randomnine>mm. but do we need to add a "Deluxe Edition - Programming" field then or what
(07:38:12)<jday>It would end up taking too much space, certainly -- if you don't want it to look like we only "produced" it or whatever, I guess just going under Programming could be best.
(07:38:31)<jday>It could be something like "Design and Code" instead of "Programming" -- preferences, tametick?
(07:38:57)<tametick>i don't mind either way
(07:48:28)<mcfroogle>how do you use this on an IRC client? have one on ipod touch
(07:59:58)<randomnine>this channel?
(08:00:39)<mcfrogole>woops typed it wrong lol
(08:00:45)<randomnine>^_^
(08:01:04)<randomnine>your username's currently in use anyway - you can't have the same username twice
(08:01:06)<mcfrogole>but yeah how do you use an IRC with it
(08:01:12)<mcfrogole>yeah fair enough
(08:01:18)<randomnine>how do you... what
(08:01:43)<randomnine>are you asking how to connect to an IRC channel from an IRC client?
(08:02:02)<mcfrogole>yeah how to connect to this with an IRC or can't you? is it an irc?
(08:02:09)<randomnine>how are you talking in here now?
(08:02:53)<jday>Are you asking how you are asking how you can have an irc client in your irc channel on your mobile device to ask how you are asking how you have one?
(08:03:02)<randomnine>lol.
(08:03:20)<randomnine>okay, this is #cq-dev on the server irc.quakenet.org
(08:03:20)<mcfrogole>lol via http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=cq-dev but i want to use an IRC on my ipod touch
(08:03:26)<randomnine>right
(08:03:33)<randomnine>that webchat is an IRC client
(08:04:16)<randomnine>anyway, your IRC client will have some way of connecting to a server, and then some way of joining a channel
(08:04:17)<mcfrogole>ok. thanks
(08:04:21)<randomnine>the 'standard' commands are:
(08:04:27)<randomnine>/server irc.quakenet.org
(08:04:31)<randomnine>/join #cq-dev
(08:04:39)<randomnine>but i'm guessing that an iOS client will be more user friendly
(08:06:07)<mcfroogle>Yay worked on iPod
(08:10:40)<mcfroogle>So what have you worked on befor randomnine
(08:10:53)<randomnine>http://wootfu.com/
(08:11:45)<randomnine>my released stuff is an introspective platformer about SPACE, a Flash game about punching students who don't have personal safety alarms until they're scared enough to want personal safety alarms, and a VVVVVV level
(08:12:25)<randomnine>and a ton of music i've done... i've got an old album up on there and i need to put a few weeks aside to wrap up a second some time
(08:13:44)<mcfroogle>Awesome which level on vvvvvv did you make?
(08:13:52)<randomnine>The Tower of Power
(08:14:46)<mcfroogle>Awesome
(08:15:00)<randomnine>which isn't for everyone :D i deliberately didn't put in any checkpoints. the level's built around that and balanced appropriately, but it's still brutal
(08:16:22)<mcfroogle>Yeah don't have vvvvvv buy played it roux friends and think I've player your level :-)
(08:16:33)<randomnine>hehe. ace
(08:16:52)<randomnine>you start off in a single screen spaceship, and there's a fair bit of dialogue as you're travelling around
(08:17:08)<randomnine>at the time i don't think any of the custom levels really had cutscenes
(08:19:50)<mcfroogle>Yeah
(08:23:32)<randomnine>that was fun. spent a couple days on that. it's surprisingly quick to knock together content for something like VVVVVV
(08:23:57)<mcfroogle>Yeah
(08:24:31)<mcfroogle>Might have to by it when I have little more money
(08:25:47)<randomnine>it's been in tons of sales
(08:26:13)<randomnine>it was in the humble bundle back in july i think
(08:27:40)<mcfrogole>yeah. sadly i missed that humble bundle :-s
(08:30:31)<mcfrogole>was a proper humble bundle only been developer ones scince
(08:30:36)<randomnine>yeah it was
(08:31:57)<mcfrogole>can't wait for 4
(08:41:14)<randomnine>updated credits checked in. hope that's acceptable.
(08:41:28)<randomnine>really would rather not have done that given the conflict of interest. BUT HEY
(08:41:37)<randomnine>okay, now to fix this last bug
(08:42:03)<tametick>don't worry about it randomnine 
(08:44:51)<randomnine>brb, got to disconnect to debug this bug
(08:55:09)<randomnine>there, that's done
(08:56:52)<mcfroogle>Go well?
(08:56:58)<randomnine>yup
(08:57:11)<mcfroogle>Good
(08:57:30)<randomnine>just had to fix the Flash version throwing an unhandled exception if you don't have a network connection when you die
(08:58:00)<mcfroogle>Oh how comes that happens? Connecting for advert?
(08:58:04)<randomnine>yep
(09:00:10)<randomnine>http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-1_2_rc1.zip
(09:00:22)<randomnine>tametick: ^ ready for testing :D
(09:00:32)<tametick>cool
(09:00:37)<tametick>i'll ask around
(09:00:44)<randomnine>awesome
(09:00:48)<mcfrogole>i'll give it a go :-)
(09:01:13)<randomnine>that's a release build so should be a bit speedier
(09:01:58)<mcfroogle>Ok, will see if I can see a difference
(09:05:52)<mcfrogole>is there a new type of wall block? any diffrent? it has a skull on it
(09:06:10)<randomnine>haha, i wouldn't be able to tell you.
(09:06:47)<mcfrogole>lol so your tolling me and it's no diffrent?
(09:07:20)<randomnine>no, i honestly have no idea
(09:07:26)<randomnine>i don't pay much attention to the wall decorations and stuff
(09:07:42)<mcfrogole>oh i thought you were teasing me bu saying it's a secret lol
(09:11:21)<mcfrogole>could it be possable in the future that if there is a creature behind a tool bar that it imforms you or the bar moves out the way?
(09:14:11)<randomnine>neat idea, i'll stick it on the list
(09:14:20)<mcfrogole>thanks
(09:14:49)<mcfrogole>just seems to happen alot especially with enemys at the bottom of the screen
(09:15:46)<Quadzi>Howdy all
(09:15:51)<randomnine>heya
(09:15:54)<mcfrogole>hey
(09:16:28)<randomnine>you popped in to test the new version?
(09:17:05)<Quadzi>Of course :)
(09:17:35)<randomnine>awesome. :D
(09:17:42)<randomnine>here ya go: http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-1_2_rc1.zip
(09:18:46)<mcfrogole>I'm glade the item names have been fixed. the name now appears first when picking it up
(09:18:58)<randomnine>if you hit any bugs, don't understand something or just don't like how something works, let us know in here - everything's really helpful. thanks :)
(09:19:15)<mcfrogole>:-)
(09:23:02)<randomnine>i'm gonna get something to eat. you mind giving people the link if they drop in?
(09:23:11)<mcfrogole>ok
(09:23:23)<mcfrogole>no worries
(09:23:36)<randomnine>ta ^_^
(09:24:18)<randomnine>test link is: http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-1_2_rc1.zip
(09:24:25)<mcfrogole>ok :-)
(09:24:40)<mcfrogole>good idea
(09:25:15)<mcfrogole>what does that mean?
(09:25:38)<tametick>mostly that you can change the topic
(09:26:03)<mcfrogole>ahh ok. can you do it to mcfroogle instead this one is just a spelling mistake :-s lol
(09:35:11)<mcfrogole>thanks
(09:35:38)<mcfroogle_>thats better
(09:35:46)<mcfroogle_>oh maybe not lol
(09:36:23)<mcfroogle__>lol still won't let me sign on as me even though i signed out i'll give it a few mins
(09:36:40)<tametick>yeah it takes a while for it time out
(09:37:18)<mcfroogle__>yeah
(09:38:09)<mcfroogle__>hello
(09:38:18)<mcfroogle__>haven't seen you before
(09:38:39)<tametick>come here often?
(09:38:42)<HappyPonyLand>are you... absolutely certain
(09:39:05)<mcfroogle__>quite
(09:39:24)<tametick>you can find the 1.2 test version in the topic HappyPonyLand 
(09:39:39)<mcfroogle__>and if you can't see the topic i'll paste it for you
(09:39:49)<mcfroogle__>some irc clients you can't
(09:39:50)<HappyPonyLand>I'm not on Windows ATM :(
(09:39:57)<HappyPonyLand>I might have a look tomorrow
(09:40:22)<mcfroogle__>ahh guessing you were pushed this way by the twitter post
(09:40:39)<HappyPonyLand>I was not!
(09:40:48)<mcfroogle__>lol fair enough
(09:41:10)<HappyPonyLand>I shall have my vengeance
(09:41:15)<HappyPonyLand>I shall... destroy twitter
(09:41:31)<mcfroogle__>good luck :-)
(09:55:32)<Quadzi>Ok, I would like to report a bug.... I have made it down to the 8th floor without dying... something must be seriously wrong with this build.....
(10:11:02)<jday>Quadzi_: What character were you playing?  What did you find?
(10:11:33)<Quadzi_>Played the mage and I didn't die... finished the game
(10:11:48)<Quadzi_>HAS to be a bug... I normally die all the time :)
(10:12:19)<Quadzi_>Trying another game as the thief... and I never play the thief so lets see what happens
(10:14:24)<jday>Quadzi: On the whole, we're trying to make it fairer -- easier if you play well, harder if you don't.
(10:18:48)<mcfroogle__>yeah you don't want to never win. it's about both skill and luck. similar to the binding of isaac
(10:32:53)<Quadzi_>Yeah, been playing a fair amount of Issac lately too
(10:33:08)<Quadzi_>and died on 7 with the thief (still further than I used to get though)
(10:34:02)<Quadzi_>Makes sense though.  Was frustrating to never know what was beyond the minotaurs... normally first one I saw would kill me.  maaaybe the second if I got lucky
(10:34:05)<mcfroogle>how do you play? potions? spells? stealth ect?
(10:44:55)<Quadzi_>normally I go for the mage and spell it up
(10:45:03)<Quadzi_>only really use the healing potion
(10:45:55)<jday>randomnine: Vigilance is a charming little thing.  Any particular influences, or just beat-em-ups in general?
(11:10:04)<tametick>i liked it too
(11:10:13)<tametick>did you do the graphics yourself too?
(11:11:53)<mcfroogle>liked what?
(11:14:10)<tametick>randomnine's beat em-up flash game 
(11:14:11)<tametick>well
(11:14:21)<tametick>can't really call it a beat-em up game i guess
(11:14:28)<tametick>but it's the main thing you do in it
(11:16:13)<mcfroogle>cool can you send a link?
(11:17:55)<tametick>http://wootfu.com/vigilance/
(11:23:06)<mcfroogle>:-o awesome. and yeah like the graphics works well
(11:28:13)<HappyPonyLand>great idea
(11:28:22)<HappyPonyLand>but terrible to play on my dvorak kinesis :D
(11:47:12)<tametick>i'll be heading to bed now
(11:47:15)<tametick>good night
(11:50:03)<mcfroogle>night
(11:52:30)<randomnine>tametick: yeah, i did the graphics
(11:52:43)<mcfroogle>you did well :-)
(11:52:56)<randomnine>jday: Dungeoneer: A Beautiful Escape was a big influence
(11:53:45)<mcfroogle>looks like a good game :-)
(11:53:50)<mcfroogle>hadn't heard of it before
(11:54:03)<randomnine>more in terms of setting than mechanics, obviously!
(11:54:23)<randomnine>but Vigilance isn't anything special mechanically
(11:54:39)<mcfroogle>yeah fair enough
(11:54:41)<randomnine>oh - and possibly the early Gunpoint trailer just for the physical feeling of punching
(11:55:00)<randomnine>anyway... can't stop to chat, sadly. off to bed ^_^
(11:55:04)<randomnine>back in 9 hours
(11:55:47)<mcfroogle>fair enough
(11:55:50)<mcfroogle>good night
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/24 +++
(01:15:47)<Gigimoi>Ero?
(01:17:16)<Gigimoi>@tametick ... Anyone?
(01:29:00)<jday>randomnine: Did code associated with popups get moved somewhere from where it used to be?
(01:52:20)<jday>Never mind -- it's right where it belonged and I had the wrong box checked on my search.
(06:28:53)<jday>Will it be too weird to have faction in a stats object?  (I'd kind of like to have baseStats.faction always be the original faction for a charmed monster -- it's a bit of a lie, but it would function right.)
(10:19:26)<magikmw>I want to test CQ 1.2 (I'm from the backlog, don't bite).
(10:19:46)<magikmw>Hello everyone :]
(10:20:09)<magikmw>Oh, the link's in the topic, I'll get right to it after work.
(03:06:05)<Mcfroogle>Hey, how's dev going?
(03:15:44)<wl>tametick, maybe I missed it in your steam sale article, but what is the argument that those sales are bad for most, I get that they are only good for a few people, but why does this imply that they are bad for most?
(03:16:38)<wl>The problem still is and always was exposure of the games, but just because some games get easy exposure now, does not have to mean bad things
(03:17:40)<wl>And finding good indie games from the consumer point is still hard, and steam/bundles gives you at least a selection that is probably better than the average indie game
(03:23:40)<randomnine>wl: the point is, sales/bundles devalue all games while only boosting the sales of the games they feature
(03:24:11)<wl>Well, the devalue is a thesis
(03:24:39)<randomnine>yeah... i'm not overly fussed about it, honestly, since they're temporary sales.
(03:25:26)<wl>I just don't really see the negative effect, I know that the positive effect is limited to a very small lucky crowd, but again, that does not mean it has a negative effect on everyone else
(03:25:30)<wl>(only relatively in comparison)
(03:26:12)<wl>And as said in the article, without steam/bundles, lots of people wouldn't even know the existence of indie games
(03:26:28)<wl>And even for the people that knew, it makes life easier
(03:50:59)<tametick>wl: the argument is that people expect the games to cost $5 or less
(03:51:09)<tametick>so you can't sell indie games for e.g. $15 anymore
(03:51:21)<tametick>you are competing with massive sales that sell $5 games
(03:51:28)<tametick>but you don't have the scale to compensate 
(03:52:41)<wl>So your point is that the money/content expectation is too low nowadays?
(03:52:53)<wl>(Or content/money too high)
(03:58:18)<tametick>wl: yeah the point is that people's expectation of indie game prices has gone way down, and while that's profitable for steam and HIB (since they make up for it in volume) it kick the bottom off of the little guys that still aren't getting many more sales than before, but can no longer sell games at $15 a pop (since they are competing with steam's cut throat sales)
(03:58:44)<tametick>it's the same thing as when wallmart moves in and kills all the mom&pop shops in downtown
(03:59:08)<wl>My problem with indie games is not really the price, but just knowing the existence
(03:59:30)<wl>I don't think I ever encountered an indie game that I wanted to play, but thought it was too expensive
(03:59:46)<tametick>gtg now
(03:59:47)<tametick>bbl
(05:36:41)<randomnine>okay, i just got +1 life repeatedly by clicking near the top of the screen
(05:38:21)<randomnine>i now have an active +life buff of +21
(05:40:34)<randomnine>...mouse input may still have a few issues :D
(06:38:07)<randomnine>lol
(06:39:34)<randomnine>jday: your inventory rewrite left picked-up items being placed on screen invisibly, such that when you clicked on that area it'd go "oh, they're clicking on an item... and the inventory screen's not up... better apply the buff like a spell or potion"
(06:40:05)<jday>I didn't check in the fix to that?
(06:40:17)<jday>Probably easiest just to find it and paste it for you.
(06:40:29)<randomnine>i've probably just fixed it
(06:41:20)<randomnine>yep, fixed
(06:43:39)<jday>Ok, good.  I recall that the basic problem was that it uses the same object for buttons and for inventory cells -- not a decision I regret in the least -- and that some bugfix to the buttons had made inventory cells respond as buttons, too.
(06:44:18)<jday>For a blessed period of time, clicking where your items were would give you an extra boost of their buffs.
(06:44:25)<randomnine>yep.
(06:44:59)<randomnine>version in the repository was still like that. lucky i tried using the mouse for a bit before we shipped this :D
(06:47:57)<randomnine>still no feedback from any testers, which i presume is positive.
(06:49:08)<randomnine>apart from the game being a bit easier. lol
(06:53:45)<jday>I've been redoing some of the effect text stuff, which will be great once it really starts working, so we can have multiline effect messages that appear at once and can be set in various fonts.
(06:54:15)<jday>That way we can have DAGGER OF LOSING / ATTACK -1 / DEFENSE -2 / VITALITY -4 appear all at once.
(06:54:59)<jday>As it stands, my opinion is that we should go ahead and ship whenever you feel you've got a viable build, and if I can get my changes in under the radar, well, the more the better.
(06:55:12)<tametick>how's the 1.2 test going?
(06:56:00)<tametick>(btw i agree with jday about that last sentence - remember that it's still supposed to be a "classic" release)
(07:20:29)<randomnine>tametick: i found a couple bugs since yesterday and i've fixed em... no bugs/issues reported by testers so far
(07:21:08)<tametick>cool
(07:21:17)<tametick>so it seems pretty stable?
(07:24:19)<randomnine>dunno... only heard back from one tester
(07:30:31)<tametick>here for the 1.2 test, Nukm?
(07:30:58)<Nukm>Not really but i would sure have a look over the weekend
(07:31:35)<Nukm>is there a certain focus on certain aspects of testing or so?
(07:32:02)<tametick>i think most just looking out for glitches, randomnine?
(07:32:44)<wl>Btw: Was the amount of spells found increased?
(07:32:48)<wl>I had 2 spells every level
(07:32:52)<randomnine>that's as before
(08:09:27)<randomnine>nukm: any bugs, usability issues, anything that feels awkward or strange or pointless or *too* useful
(08:09:58)<randomnine>quite wide-ranging but i think we've got rid of nearly all of the actual bugs now :)
(08:55:58)<mcfroogle>Hey how's dev going?
(09:00:29)<tametick>you can see in the topic mcfroogle 
(09:01:20)<mcfroogle>What the download? I've played it. I mean scince then
(09:02:00)<tametick>well if nobody is finding any bugs
(09:02:08)<tametick>than i guess it's good news :p
(09:03:10)<mcfroogle>Yeah seem all clean last night (my night lol)
(09:11:52)<randomnine>mcfroogle: VVVVVV is 75% off on Steam today
(09:12:03)<Nukm>yes, there is peace... just finished the latest version with a warrior
(09:12:24)<Nukm>so, first of all a question, does the -3 attack that some monsters cast stack?
(09:13:38)<Nukm>i really like almost every balance decision that was made since the last release version, but the minotaures were really weak :( didnt even need more than 1 healing potion in the last level
(09:14:35)<Nukm>what really kills the game flow a bit is that i constantly resell the same items. would be cool if the game remembered what i sold before and does not pick it up again and again
(09:15:51)<mcfroogle>Yeah going to get it :-) what's your steam name?
(09:20:32)<mcfroogle>Got it
(09:25:25)<mcfroogle_>whats your steam name?
(09:48:56)<tametick>i think i have 3 or 4 copies of vvvvvv
(09:50:01)<mcfroogle_>awww you could have said me a ??1 and gifted me one lol
(09:54:46)<mcfroogle_>whats your steam tametick?
(09:59:26)<jday>Nukm: Good point!  I do want to adapt item sales to look in your bag, too, and keeping track of sold items would not be terribly onerous.
(09:59:58)<jday>That sure isn't going in until deluxe, though.
(10:01:44)<mcfroogle_>what are you plans for .3
(10:06:54)<mcfroogle_>brb. got to restart router.
(10:10:37)<mcfroogle>back :-)
(10:13:53)<mcfroogle>so whats your steam name tamtick? and what are peoples plans for 1.3?
(10:16:07)<tametick>mcfroogle: i think it's tametick
(10:16:09)<tametick>or ido
(10:16:27)<tametick>ah no
(10:16:33)<tametick>mcfroogle: ido.yehieli
(10:16:55)<mcfroogle>found you :-)
(10:18:38)<mcfroogle>see you have all the humble bundles. i missed all the earlier ones :-s
(10:18:46)<tametick>yeah 
(10:18:49)<tametick>i got them all
(10:18:54)<tametick>and indie royal too
(10:19:15)<tametick>actually most of the games i have on steam i mostly played outside of steam
(10:19:36)<tametick>and i think i have multiple copies of almost all the games i got in the various bundels
(10:20:17)<mcfroogle>whats indie royal?
(10:20:25)<tametick>another bundle
(10:21:30)<mcfroogle>same company who made it?
(10:22:58)<mcfroogle>little unclear from the website. is it still avalable?
(10:23:00)<mcfroogle>hi TB
(10:23:09)<mcfroogle>not total biscuit are you?
(10:23:29)<mcfroogle>lol ok ok
(10:24:41)<tametick>mcfroogle: i think at the moment there is no bundle running
(10:24:56)<tametick>but it's the same thing as HIB, they have a new bundle every once in a while
(10:25:19)<mcfroogle>ok. thanks. just wondered if it was a non stop thing. lol why do i always get to bundles late :-s lol
(10:25:30)<mcfroogle>any others you know of?
(10:26:03)<tametick>hrm
(10:26:05)<tametick>not really
(10:26:19)<tametick>when there is one it's normally all over the web
(10:26:22)<tametick>twitter, reddit
(10:26:27)<tametick>pretty easy to find
(10:26:46)<mcfroogle>yeah, thats how i found out about HIB
(10:28:18)<tametick>i don't have any secret source :)
(10:28:29)<tametick>i find out about them at the same time as everyone
(10:29:17)<randomnine>indie royale is around every two weeks
(10:29:46)<mcfroogle>fair enough:-) lol
(10:29:54)<mcfroogle>whats your steam name randomnine?
(10:30:36)<randomnine>randomnine :D
(10:30:50)<mcfroogle>lol good idea
(10:31:06)<mcfroogle>added :-)
(10:32:40)<mcfroogle>well send request
(10:33:18)<randomnine>got it
(10:35:23)<tametick>i don't actually use the community stuff on steam much myself
(10:35:40)<mcfroogle>yeah same
(10:35:50)<Nukm>randomnine do negative effects cast from the enemies stack?
(10:35:59)<tametick>they should 
(10:36:01)<mcfroogle>i think so yeah
(10:36:17)<Nukm>makes for some tough situation, had 3 mosners casting -3 attack on me
(10:36:27)<Nukm>was almost impossible to kill then ,D
(10:36:32)<Nukm>*them
(10:36:49)<mcfroogle>all part of it though :-)
(10:36:59)<mcfroogle>can use potions to increase attack
(10:37:32)<Nukm>yea was fun, but tons harder than anything else i met, including the minotaurs
(10:38:04)<randomnine>Nukm: yup.
(10:38:41)<mcfroogle>similar to when you get them purple ghosts casting mirror lots of times
(10:39:35)<Nukm>true
(10:46:01)<tametick>i think making the game hard is a bit part of the fun
(10:46:11)<tametick>makes you make actual decisions
(10:46:18)<tametick>rather then play on auto pilot 
(10:46:40)<tametick>that's why i'd vote for buffing minotaurs if people are beating them on their first try :)
(10:47:12)<tametick>i mean i would personally error on the side of too difficult rather than too easy 
(10:48:08)<randomnine>tbh minotaurs aren't that much easier
(10:48:20)<randomnine>their damage has been reduced a bit, and nothing can one-hit-kill you from high health now
(10:48:45)<randomnine>but they have more health than they did
(10:49:15)<Nukm>hmm but really i used berserk + 1 dmg potion on each and just attacked into them. no nead to even heal
(10:49:40)<randomnine>maybe i'll increase their def. it's always been quite low
(10:49:58)<randomnine>tbh a high level fighter with berserk and a damage potion will have, what
(10:50:38)<randomnine>attack 14, speed 10, a damage of around 16 per hit (with 2*)
(10:50:58)<randomnine>which is pretty beefy
(10:51:33)<Nukm>23:28 @randomnine ? which is pretty beefy - it is, but every single warrior player making it to there will have it
(10:51:45)<randomnine>yeah.
(10:51:57)<tametick>go nuts randomnine 
(10:52:13)<tametick>if players say something it's too easy it means you can buff it to all hell
(10:52:17)<randomnine>honestly i thought minotaurs were tough enough in the current version
(10:52:22)<tametick>generally players complain about stuff being too hard
(10:52:56)<randomnine>hehe
(10:52:57)<tametick>well it's your decision ultimately, just saying :)
(10:54:57)<randomnine>well, if the difficulty curve needs to be a bit steeper, that's totally doable
(10:55:56)<mcfroogle>could increase floors by a few? and last 2 really beef them out?
(10:56:23)<randomnine>nope. not increasing content for this version
(10:56:54)<Nukm>the difficulty curve until the end was fine imho, its just that the minotaurs did not feel like boss monsters. just regular strong melee monster
(10:57:12)<mcfroogle>oh yeah didn't mean this vertion just in the future
(10:57:19)<randomnine>ok
(10:57:28)<randomnine>i may amp up the minotaur damage and attack/def stats a bit
(10:57:58)<randomnine>atm minotaurs are pretty evenly balanced except for having twice as much health as a normal monster would at that level
(10:58:54)<randomnine>a lot of their toughness previously came from the fact they could one-hit-kill you
(10:58:58)<mcfroogle>yeah could increase attack? that way players are encuraged to think more
(10:59:08)<mcfroogle>yeah thats true
(10:59:20)<mcfroogle>very very slow very strong?
(10:59:30)<randomnine>nah. slow monsters are too easy to abuse
(11:00:18)<randomnine>maybe higher def, higher damage, lower attack.
(11:00:32)<randomnine>so they hit less often, but they hit harder; and it takes longer to wear them down in melee
(11:04:38)<mcfroogle>sounds good :-)
(11:48:44)<jday>A very slow monster with high attack can be a great pairing to other monsters -- but on its own, as you say, is easily abused.
(11:49:09)<jday>On the whole, the way the game plays with speed is very dangerous and highly aversive to close and careful design.
(11:50:32)<mcfroogle>yeah
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/25 +++
(12:11:11)<mcfroogle>any indie games people can suggest?
(03:26:31)<mcfroogle_>hey how's everything?
(03:41:38)<randomnine>heyo
(03:41:57)<randomnine>found and fixed another mouse related bug today, been playing around with minotaurs and just playing the game
(03:42:05)<randomnine>keep dying before level 8 though 'cause i'm just rushing through a bit :p
(03:49:41)<mcfroogle_>what was the bug? and fair enough
(03:51:31)<randomnine>if you picked up a helmet, weapon or ring/amulet, then clicking in the right place on the screen could start dragging that item around
(03:51:45)<randomnine>until you next opened the inventory screen
(03:52:20)<randomnine>(releasing the mouse would make it disappear again, but the item name would hang around)
(03:53:01)<mcfroogle_>oh pretty unusual. good spot
(04:52:33)<randomnine>oh god
(04:52:35)<randomnine>jday
(04:52:42)<randomnine>you made all monsters do 1 physical damage forever
(04:52:46)<randomnine>hahah
(04:52:54)<randomnine>no wonder minotaurs weren't doing much.
(04:53:40)<wl>And you still died? :P
(04:53:58)<randomnine>hehe. elementals have fireballs and so on
(04:56:04)<tametick>fixes for 1.2:
(04:56:06)<tametick>1. if you picked up a helmet, weapon or ring/amulet, then clicking in the right place on the screen could start dragging that item around
(04:56:08)<tametick>2. updated credits screen picture
(04:56:09)<tametick>3. all monsters in the game no longer do 1 damage 
(04:56:14)<randomnine>haha
(04:56:22)<randomnine>to be fair, that was introduced for 1.2 as well
(04:57:15)<randomnine>right.
(04:57:21)<randomnine>minotaurs reverted to previous stats then.
(04:57:33)<randomnine>LET'S TRY THIS AGAIN
(04:59:12)<tametick>now, let's see if fallout new vegas works on this old laptop
(04:59:22)<tametick>probably not, but was worth a shot for 5 euros
(05:03:37)<randomnine>died on level 2.
(05:03:40)<randomnine>OKAY.
(05:04:04)<randomnine>now i'm wondering whether it's worth halving all monster damage.
(05:04:14)<tametick>main menu works. already better than fallout 3!
(05:04:20)<randomnine>:D
(05:04:22)<tametick>hehe
(05:05:08)<tametick>i had to borrow a laptop from work to play f3. still haven't forgiven bethesda for ruining my favorite RPG series :(
(05:05:23)<tametick>but NV is by obsidian so hopefully it'll be better
(05:05:40)<randomnine>i quite liked f3.
(05:06:05)<tametick>it was probably not a bad rpg
(05:06:15)<tametick>but it wasn't a sequel to fallout 2
(05:12:39)<jonathan3>tametick, funny thing about F:NV, if you look at it closely it takes a LOT of elements from the cancelled Fallout 3
(05:13:24)<jonathan3>mainly in story and worldbuilding
(05:14:39)<tametick_>yeah
(05:14:46)<tametick_>i was hoping it would be the "real" f3
(05:15:04)<tametick_>only played f3 for 2 days before getting too frustrated with it
(05:15:11)<tametick_>a real disappointment 
(05:16:26)<jonathan3>actually the biggest problem I had with Fallout 3 was that you were attacked pretty much every 5 minutes, and that got irritating because it got in the way of exploring
(05:16:49)<jonathan3>so I turned combat AI off most of the game
(05:16:57)<tametick>well
(05:17:04)<tametick>for me it was that auto leveling of monsters
(05:17:29)<tametick>i went to DC pretty early and was sniping super mutants down with my pitiful laser pistol 
(05:17:38)<tametick>then 2 levels later ghouls were killing me 
(05:17:54)<jonathan3>exactly, it makes no sense
(05:18:18)<tametick>now to wait for 2.5gb of updates to download before playing :|
(05:18:42)<jonathan3>sale in 6 minutes
(05:22:22)<tametick>:O
(05:22:54)<jonathan3>make that 2
(05:22:58)<tametick>what the hell did they put in f:nv that takes 8gb of hdd space?
(05:23:00)<jonathan3>actually 1
(05:23:15)<randomnine>right. nerfed all the enemies. -_-
(05:23:31)<randomnine>now to verify the game's winnable. lol
(05:23:32)<jonathan3>and half the weapons, so it balances out a bit
(05:23:38)<jonathan3>nah, I beat it in 100 hours
(05:23:47)<tametick>100h is loads of time
(05:23:52)<jonathan3>yes
(05:23:55)<tametick>i will likely not play that much
(05:23:59)<tametick>i got all the DLC too 
(05:24:06)<tametick>since it's all -75%
(05:24:13)<jonathan3>you'll probably take less time, but I like to take my time in RPGs
(05:24:14)<tametick>that's the last 2.5gb i'm waiting on
(05:24:26)<tametick>i rarely play RPGs these days
(05:24:31)<tametick>because of lack of patience 
(05:24:57)<jonathan3>you'll be embarking on a virtual road trip from Goodsprings to Vegas 
(05:25:20)<jonathan3>why aren't there more games that have that road movie feel
(05:26:12)<tametick>can't say that has ever been an attraction for me
(05:26:22)<tametick>i generally don't like story-heavy games
(05:26:28)<tametick>more of a tetrisist myself 
(05:26:58)<jonathan3>also, the shooting is far better in F:NV than FO3
(05:27:03)<jonathan3>they added ironsights for one
(05:27:10)<tametick>good to hear
(05:27:16)<tametick>still has vats?
(05:27:23)<jonathan3>yep
(05:27:29)<tametick>i was using pretty much only vats iirc
(05:27:31)<jonathan3>you won't be relying on it like a crutch though
(05:27:44)<jonathan3>which was another problem I had with FO3
(05:27:55)<tametick>yeah i pretty much never aimed myself
(05:28:04)<tametick>but it seems weird to me in an RPG anyway
(05:28:13)<tametick>i wasn't in it for a FPS
(05:28:31)<tametick>would have preferred an isometric game honestly 
(05:28:39)<tametick>like eschalon or avadon
(05:28:46)<tametick>too bad both of these are kinda boring
(05:29:14)<jonathan3>I like the feel of torchlight
(05:29:19)<tametick>eschalon does everything right except the actual gameplay 
(05:29:30)<jonathan3>thre's got to be some way to polish isometric RPGs
(05:29:39)<tametick>i've come to kind of despise torchlight
(05:29:56)<jonathan3>what pisses you off about it?
(05:30:13)<tametick>yeah, the 2 i mentioned are actually good attempts. i just didn't find the settings very interesting
(05:30:21)<tametick>1 moment phone
(05:31:36)<tametick>jonathan3: basically the game was nothing but mindless grinding, even more so than diablo (something i didn't think was possible)
(05:32:01)<randomnine>tametick: i think 'cause of this monster damage bug it's going to be worth doing another round of testing before releasing 1.2
(05:32:07)<tametick>at the hardest difficulty it's kinda amusing for a little while 
(05:32:09)<randomnine>to get some feedback on the difficulty curve
(05:32:14)<tametick>sure randomnine 
(05:32:37)<jonathan3>I agree, though I'm willing to excuse that a bit because it was basically a tech demo
(05:32:38)<tametick>we're in no rush
(05:32:49)<jonathan3>right, the deal's up
(05:32:50)<mcfroogle_>any 
(05:32:54)<mcfroogle_>ermm what sale is now?
(05:33:01)<mcfroogle_>like in 1 minute?
(05:33:02)<tametick>actually it was very polished for what it was
(05:33:13)<tametick>gameolith pay as you wish sale
(05:33:13)<jonathan3>crap, forgot to push the new assets
(05:34:17)<tametick>oh randomnine: how hard would it be to display a line of text at the top of the main menu that tells you a new version is up with a link?
(05:34:28)<tametick>should just ping some text file on cardinalquest.com
(05:34:36)<tametick>to see if a new version is online
(05:34:58)<tametick>and then link to download the files from cloudfront
(05:42:31)<jonathan3>tweeted: https://twitter.com/#!/Gameolith/status/140114210519658497
(05:42:57)<randomnine>sure, that should be easy enough. Flash's policy stuff means you'll need to do some stuff on the server so it explicitly lets Flash access files on it
(05:45:51)<randomnine>that'll take maybe half a day to implement and test
(05:46:11)<tametick>i think that would signficantly increase update rates
(05:46:37)<tametick>once we got that we can email everyone who got the game and explain the classic vs. deluxe thing too
(05:46:52)<tametick>i normally don't email after every update becuase that's a bit spammy 
(05:47:13)<randomnine>cool
(05:47:17)<randomnine>worth doing after major updates though
(05:47:30)<mcfroogle_>you won't need to email after implimenting the intergrated message bit in the game
(05:48:00)<randomnine>yeah you will. people who've stopped playing might come back to it for a big update
(05:49:03)<mcfroogle_>thats true :-)
(05:52:16)<randomnine>it's not spammy to let people who bought something know that it just got better :D
(05:56:15)<randomnine>died on level 7 -___-
(05:58:42)<randomnine>put a werewolf to sleep and it hit me anyway. fixed that bug now...
(05:59:08)<jonathan3>sleep twitches
(06:07:28)<mcfroogle_>is sleep just - lots of speed or is it just stop?
(06:07:48)<randomnine>it sets base speed to 0 temporarily
(06:07:57)<randomnine>problem being, +speed buffs could still modify that
(06:08:09)<mcfroogle_>yeah
(06:09:23)<mcfroogle_>good call tametick: Sosowski's Obnoxious Friday Bundle is awesome
(06:10:21)<jonathan3>http://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/mp0ng/pay_what_you_want_for_cardinal_quest_on_gameolith/
(06:13:43)<mcfroogle_>brought it alread and not on linux
(06:14:51)<jonathan3>I know, I know :0
(06:14:53)<jonathan3>:)
(06:15:10)<jday>randomnine: Ah.  Yeah.  I'm pretty sure that happened when I was planning on giving monsters an implicit weapon that did their damage type -- not the most important change, so I backed off on it.  Glad you caught it.
(06:17:24)<randomnine>:p
(06:21:08)<randomnine>welp, it's fixed now. so every monster encounter is something you have to think about again
(06:21:20)<mcfroogle_>thats good
(06:21:24)<randomnine>thing is, since the bandits only did 1 damage, the change wasn't obvious just in teseting on the first couple levels
(06:22:09)<randomnine>looking forward to adding +spell damage gear in Deluxe. Heal is fixed now, but Fireball is overpowered for non-wizards
(06:22:48)<mcfroogle_>yeah can be. especally in later levels
(06:23:17)<randomnine>the spell i'm really missing at the moment though is Charm Monster
(06:27:47)<mcfroogle_>is a very good spell
(06:28:10)<randomnine>sod it, i'm just going to nerf Fireball damage unless you're a Wizard
(06:28:51)<mcfroogle_>how much by?
(06:29:00)<randomnine>it'll level half as fast
(06:29:03)<mcfroogle_>or jsut decrease spirit
(06:29:16)<randomnine>by level 8, a wizard's fireball does 5-14 damage
(06:29:21)<randomnine>everyone else's will do 3-8
(06:29:28)<mcfroogle_>fair enough
(06:47:11)<randomnine>new test version.
(06:47:21)<randomnine>- fixed a bunch of bugs when using the mouse to control the game
(06:47:36)<randomnine>- reduced charge rate of Heal slightly
(06:47:38)<mcfroogle_>will give it a go a bit later. just playing the sos bundle
(06:47:48)<randomnine>- fixed Sleep when enemies have +speed buffs
(06:47:59)<mcfroogle_>Reduced??? charger rate???
(06:48:09)<randomnine>- nerfed Fireball for non-Wizards
(06:48:35)<randomnine>- monsters now DO DAMAGE (though are substantially nerfed compared to their 1.1c counterparts)
(06:49:02)<randomnine>yeah. it's back to two heals per level of xp
(06:49:13)<randomnine>three was a bit too overpowered.
(06:49:25)<mcfroogle_>fair enough
(06:49:30)<randomnine>Heal shouldn't be a spell you always stick straight into a spell slot when you find it
(06:49:36)<randomnine>none of them should be, really
(06:49:55)<randomnine>Heal was so overpowered that a big part of balancing it has been making enemies weaker :D
(06:51:40)<randomnine>anyway, that version will be up over the weekend. possibly longer. i'm honestly not sure how the different classes fare now
(06:59:42)<tametick>randomnine: when you are ready you & jday could maybe write a blog post on tametick.com with all the changes and plans?
(07:08:19)<mcfroogle_>argg :-s i hate being skint :-s the entire GTA pack is 4.99 :-s
(07:09:51)<tametick>gta4 is 7,49 euros for me
(07:10:15)<mcfroogle_>think thats about the right convertion
(07:10:40)<mcfroogle_>think 15 euros (don't have the symbol on keyboard) is ??12
(07:12:09)<tametick>that;s just gta4 tho
(07:12:16)<tametick>not a whole pack of all GTAs
(07:12:32)<tametick>oh wait yes it is
(07:13:03)<tametick>huh
(07:13:11)<tametick>i guess it's actually 10 euros?
(07:14:11)<tametick>http://i.imgur.com/YtCcn.png
(07:15:15)<mcfroogle_>on mine it says GTA IV is the same price as the complete pack
(07:15:20)<mcfroogle_>both are ??4.99
(07:15:34)<tametick>:(
(07:15:56)<tametick>well 9,99 euros is still cheap for all these games
(07:15:59)<mcfroogle_>shame i'm too skint to buy it :-s well i could but i shouldn't
(07:16:14)<wl>Some prices are really different, sometime the single ones are cheaper in one currency but the whole pack is cheaper in the other
(07:16:18)<tametick>which of these do you want most?
(07:16:24)<wl>5 bucks too much :o
(07:19:33)<mcfroogle_>mainly 3 and vice city i think
(07:21:47)<mcfroogle_>screw it i'm going to buy it :-)
(07:21:55)<tametick>nooooo
(07:22:00)<mcfroogle_>oh what?
(07:22:05)<tametick>i already bought you 3 & vice city!
(07:22:11)<mcfroogle_>:-o
(07:22:14)<tametick>was just about to send you
(07:22:20)<mcfroogle_>thank you :-o
(07:22:34)<wl>So this is Make A Wish? :D
(07:22:41)<mcfroogle_>lol
(07:25:15)<mcfroogle_>~Thank you so so much. i owe you one
(07:25:25)<tametick>np :)
(07:25:31)<tametick>sent the 2nd one now
(07:25:40)<mcfroogle_>thanks :-)
(07:26:51)<mcfroogle_>I've not got much use but if you ever do need anything testing just email it and i'll get right onto it
(07:29:06)<tametick>sure
(07:30:10)<mcfroogle_>:-)
(07:45:08)<tametick>jonathan3: so if i want to conscientious  
(07:45:20)<tametick>should i always leave $50 in my gameolith account
(07:45:22)<tametick>?
(07:45:30)<jonathan3>huh?
(07:45:38)<tametick>for the indiegogo thingie
(07:45:44)<tametick>i don't want to withdraw that 
(07:45:46)<tametick>it was for you
(07:45:48)<jonathan3>oh, yeah
(07:46:24)<tametick>there are a couple of games i would have bought if i still used linux on anything but a VM
(07:46:39)<jonathan3>what might they be? :)
(07:47:05)<tametick>BEEP
(07:47:14)<tametick>i have most of the good ones already honestly 
(07:47:17)<tametick>BOH
(07:47:36)<jonathan3>they're both good games at any rate
(07:47:36)<jonathan3>also
(07:47:40)<jonathan3>http://aflite.co.uk/public/merchants/32797-Gameolith
(07:47:43)<jonathan3>affiliate programme!
(07:48:06)<tametick>cool
(07:48:18)<tametick>btw i just noticed it's really hard to browse games
(07:48:29)<tametick>if i don't know what i want to get and just want to look at the best ones
(07:48:41)<jonathan3>yes, it is a pain, I just haven't had time to polish it
(07:49:14)<jonathan3>frontpage needs a list of featured games for a start
(07:49:36)<tametick>are these all the games? http://www.gameolith.com/browse/
(07:49:45)<tametick>only 12?
(07:50:41)<jonathan3>sucks, doesn't it?
(07:50:49)<tametick>i thought there were more :(
(07:50:59)<jonathan3>it's surprisingly hard to get in contact with these indies
(07:51:01)<tametick>what about saucelifter?
(07:51:16)<jonathan3>actually, I have to get back to him
(07:52:04)<tametick>ah, i have detected an unserved hole in the market! http://www.gameolith.com/browse/strategy/
(07:52:26)<mcfroogle_>lol
(07:55:38)<mcfroogle_>how fast are people's internet?
(07:55:53)<jonathan3>4-5Mbit on a good day
(07:57:25)<wl>"people's"?
(07:57:53)<mcfroogle_>just everyone on here
(07:58:05)<mcfroogle_>and yeah that was a poor use of grammer
(08:00:26)<wl>I'm paying for 50/10
(08:01:58)<mcfroogle_>don't know what that means? don't have that term here
(08:02:25)<wl>50 mbps download, 10 mbps upload
(08:03:35)<mcfroogle_>ahh ok
(08:03:59)<mcfroogle_>much faster than mine lol
(08:27:34)<tametick>i think i have 20mbps down
(08:27:47)<tametick>practically downloading stuff i top at about 2mb/sec
(08:30:42)<mcfroogle_>mine tops about 900KB/S almost a MB lol
(11:48:19)<mcfroogle>hey again people
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/26 +++
(02:31:20)<jday>randomnine: Is there any reason for spirit not to determine the strength of a fireball?  It's a pretty strong parallel to attack charging berserk.
(11:33:55)<randomnine>jday: damage rises exponentially through the game, stats rise linearly
(11:34:10)<randomnine>it'd throw off the current balance of fireball a ton
(11:40:40)<randomnine>though... we could work out a function to map Spirit to fireball damage...
(11:40:50)<randomnine>but no. it works now, no point messing with it
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/27 +++
(12:06:43)<mcfroogle>Hey everyone. How is everything?
(12:08:03)<mcfroogle>Hey how is everyone? And how's dev going?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/28 +++
(01:12:35)<randomnine>standalone version now has support to check for updates
(01:20:14)<randomnine>needs a crossdomain.xml and a simple text file on the server
(01:21:34)<tametick>cool
(01:21:50)<tametick>i can give you a user on cardinalquest.com
(01:22:04)<tametick>do you know your way around linux?
(01:22:20)<randomnine>yup
(01:22:38)<tametick>do you know how to make a directory writable by multiple users 
(01:22:48)<tametick>without having all kinds of permissions bullshit?
(01:23:06)<tametick>or i can just change my user's password there
(01:23:09)<tametick>and give you that
(01:23:51)<randomnine>i'm no expert, but i think you have to either set the directory writable to everyone with chmod
(01:24:05)<randomnine>or set the directory writable to everyone in its group, set the directory's group, and add all the relevant users to that group
(02:10:15)<mcfroogle>hey how is everything?
(02:17:33)<randomnine>heya
(02:17:39)<tametick>howdy 
(02:24:49)<tametick>got another tester randomnine ^
(02:28:10)<rongtuleb>I think the text in the intro would look better without shadow, and in white colour
(02:29:24)<randomnine>hey :)
(02:29:31)<rongtuleb>Hello.
(02:32:32)<mcfroogle>whats new in RC2?
(02:33:23)<rongtuleb>Why is it that you cannot shoot fireballs at charmed monsters?
(02:34:02)<randomnine>mcfroogle: vs RC1? several mouse related bugfixes, and there was a bug in RC1 which limited monster melee damage to 1 point of damage per hit
(02:34:42)<tametick>randomnine: small credit change - can you move joris to the top of the 2nd programming list?
(02:34:48)<tametick>under contributors?
(02:35:24)<randomnine>OK
(02:35:28)<tametick>thanks
(02:35:32)<tametick>then we got 3 & 3
(02:36:03)<randomnine>rongtuleb: that intro screen is a tough one... it's a bit clearer in white, but it feels less polished. it definitely needs shadows either way, though, since the background is yellow in places and white in others
(02:36:40)<mcfroogle>oh yeah course. i was hear when discussing them
(02:37:05)<randomnine>so the big change in RC2 is that the whole game balance is different. heh
(02:37:06)<tametick>and Stephen Challener to the main graphics category after Jagosh, and maybe the whole music category into the "Contributors" section after Graphics
(02:38:13)<tametick>also i like the current look of the intro screen
(02:38:16)<tametick>with the yellow + shadow
(02:39:23)<randomnine>tametick: k, i'll do that
(02:39:27)<tametick>oh nice. did you change the potions? 
(02:39:32)<tametick>i like the new look
(02:39:40)<randomnine>yeah, tweaked them a bit to be a touch different
(02:39:51)<tametick>new mini map is also very nice
(02:40:06)<tametick>also new char screen :)
(02:40:10)<randomnine>haha, what changed about the map?
(02:40:13)<tametick>looks really awesome 
(02:40:22)<tametick>randomnine: the graphics for the player and enemies are different 
(02:40:31)<randomnine>wasn't me ^_^
(02:40:37)<tametick>probably jday 
(02:40:56)<tametick>it looks a lot more polished now then the day i gave you the game :)
(02:40:59)<tametick>*than
(02:41:06)<randomnine>i added the mouseover stuff to the char screen
(02:41:17)<tametick>yeah it's great
(02:41:20)<randomnine>felt the game needed to explain what the stats do
(02:41:58)<tametick>yeah
(02:42:00)<randomnine>i'm not sure what to do about not being able to attack charmed monsters. it's a tough one, since you don't generally want to do that
(02:42:42)<tametick>one other usability issue is that we need to explain somewhere that you can see what the spells and potions do in the inv screen
(02:42:48)<tametick>i would say just don't attack them
(02:43:52)<randomnine>ok. i can make attacking a charmed monster break charm and make them legitimate targets for spells + melee
(02:44:17)<tametick>maybe use the info line at the top of the main viewer to say that you can see the description of the spells and potions in the inventory screen?
(02:44:20)<tametick>yeah sounds good to me
(02:44:43)<randomnine>has anyone who's played it for a while not realised that info's in the inventory screen?
(02:44:52)<tametick>yep
(02:44:58)<randomnine>ah. bum
(02:44:58)<tametick>i got that complain several times
(02:45:36)<tametick>also, minor graphical glitch: http://i.imgur.com/xc4xs.png
(02:45:53)<randomnine>what's the glitch?
(02:46:00)<tametick>can be fixed by moving the inv screen bg a few pixel down
(02:46:09)<tametick>the green outline bleeds out of the leather area
(02:46:27)<randomnine>it'll bleed out on the right as well then surely
(02:46:34)<tametick>yeah
(02:46:52)<tametick>the bg is just as png, can be pretty easily scaled in the gimp/photoshop
(02:47:17)<tametick>it's already pixelly so scaling a bit doesn't introduce too many artifacts 
(02:48:00)<tametick>of course a different solution would be to move the gear buttons a bit up and left
(02:48:08)<randomnine>mm. that works
(02:50:16)<tametick>btw what you said about attacking charmed monsters already works that way for feared monsters
(02:50:18)<tametick>it breaks the fear
(02:50:31)<tametick>so it;s probably the good solution
(02:50:35)<tametick>it makes sense in-game
(02:51:20)<randomnine>yep
(02:52:17)<tametick>btw i think we can afford to use the fancy font in the char screen
(02:52:20)<tametick>the text is big enough
(02:53:45)<tametick>another very minor bug: manually destroying stuff via the destroy button doesn't play the sound effect anymore
(02:55:12)<tametick>and the spell button that my cursor is pointing at in this screenshot is a bit too far too the right: http://i.imgur.com/BvYmI.jpg
(03:04:30)<randomnine>kk
(03:05:49)<tametick>thanks
(03:05:54)<tametick>and sorry for nitpicking :)
(03:06:34)<randomnine>hehe. details are important
(03:08:12)<rongtuleb>I'm not sure how valid as a problem this is, but I usually die by running into a monster accidentally by keeping down the movement button for a while even after seeing the monster
(03:08:59)<mcfroogle>not sure if thats a problem. think it depends more on your reflexes
(03:09:08)<mcfroogle>kind of part of the game
(03:18:08)<tametick>not sure i agree mcfroogle 
(03:18:14)<tametick>the game isn't an action game
(03:18:34)<tametick>but i also don't know what would be a solution that won't be more annoying than the problem
(03:18:51)<mcfroogle>oh yeah i know that. just it's the kind of game some people would enjoy doing speed runs off and putting them online and such
(03:19:15)<tametick>i would say stop moving once a monster comes into view, but i suspect that would be more annoying than rongtuleb's issue
(03:19:24)<rongtuleb>yep
(03:21:35)<mcfroogle>yeah. i'm not sure what other method could be implemented though to stop the problem, any ideas?
(03:22:12)<rongtuleb>does the game implement this: http://www.flashgamelicense.com/view_library.php?page=gametracker or something analogous?
(03:22:16)<randomnine>the nature of the game is that it can punish incautious moves very harshly
(03:22:45)<tametick>no rongtuleb 
(03:22:48)<randomnine>change that aspect of the design and you destroy all the tension with it
(03:22:57)<tametick>that's true
(03:23:17)<tametick>you shouldn't be able to just run around carelessly 
(03:23:20)<randomnine>controls wise, a configurable movement repeat speed option might help
(03:23:29)<mcfroogle>yeah thats true
(03:23:32)<randomnine>it can be a bit jumpy until you get used to it
(03:23:40)<tametick>is it 200ms now?
(03:23:44)<randomnine>yeah
(03:23:51)<randomnine>slightly longer when you open a door, etc.
(03:24:31)<randomnine>tbh i single-tap everywhere when exploring new areas
(03:24:38)<tametick>yeah
(03:24:41)<mcfroogle>me too
(03:24:54)<tametick>i do that too, and only play with the mouse and the number row
(03:25:02)<mcfroogle>only when the floor is fully exsplored then i rush to the stairs
(03:25:56)<tametick>randomnine: what would you feel about an button that shows up once you discover the stairs and auto walks you there (stopping if a monster comes into sight)?
(03:26:08)<tametick>then it would less tedious once you've cleared the floor
(03:26:38)<tametick>an easier solution would be to change it to 100ms once the floor is cleared.
(03:26:40)<randomnine>mmh, i've never felt that was a problem honestly
(03:26:52)<tametick>just thinking out loud, not sure that would be a good solution 
(03:27:03)<tametick>i think wl was complaining about that a while ago?
(03:27:13)<randomnine>nah, 200ms is pretty much the limit of control
(03:27:22)<tametick>ok
(03:27:26)<mcfroogle>i don't think theres currently a problem
(03:27:26)<tametick>so let's leave it that way
(03:27:32)<tametick>another suggestion:
(03:27:33)<randomnine>anyway, i'd rather focus on getting this build out for now
(03:27:38)<tametick>yeah for sure
(03:27:57)<tametick>just brain storming, nothing i'm saying must be in the next build, just some thoughts i've had
(03:28:12)<tametick>but we can talk about it after 1.2 is out
(03:28:48)<tametick>the thing about polish
(03:29:00)<tametick>is that you can pretty much do it indefinitely 
(03:29:03)<mcfroogle>what are the main plans for 1.3? or an't there yet>?
(03:29:19)<tametick>i think 1.3 would probably be the first deluxe release 
(03:29:34)<tametick>and 1.2 (barring some bug fixing) the last classic release 
(03:29:36)<tametick>so
(03:29:38)<tametick>3 new character classes
(03:29:44)<tametick>about 50% more enemy types
(03:29:51)<tametick>skill types
(03:29:55)<tametick>weapons
(03:29:57)<mcfroogle>sounds good :-D
(03:29:58)<tametick>items
(03:30:15)<tametick>pretty much just a lot more new content 
(03:30:30)<rongtuleb>Are you going to have a prettier character selection screen?
(03:30:38)<mcfroogle>do you think you'd ever do anymore floors? or maybe a 9 floor mode a 25 (ect) then an infinate
(03:30:52)<mcfroogle>whats wrong with it?
(03:31:12)<rongtuleb>It looks ugly
(03:31:26)<tametick>mcfroogle: i don't know, i kinda like the quick nature of the game. kinda pushing it without a save game as it is
(03:31:37)<tametick>rongtuleb: do you have any ideas on how to improve it?
(03:31:39)<mcfroogle>yeah
(03:31:55)<tametick>but there is a whole list of stuff for deluxe
(03:32:00)<tametick>there's quite a lot of it
(03:32:52)<mcfroogle>oh yeah something i suggested the other day is the menus sliding (or fading) out the way when theres an enemy behind them (very common with the bottom menu)
(03:33:00)<mcfroogle>any thoughts on this?
(03:33:09)<rongtuleb>tametick, something like this perhaps: http://www.epmode.com/qfg/qfg1vga_choose.gif ?
(03:33:39)<mcfroogle>wrong style really. maybe addapted a bit purhapse
(03:34:00)<rongtuleb>I meant the poses & structure
(03:35:25)<mcfroogle>yeah thought so, just checking though. might be the probelem that once done it would be very hard to add more classes because i would need to be resigned and drawn again
(03:35:46)<mcfroogle>*because it would need to
(03:35:58)<mcfroogle>*redesigned and
(03:36:07)<mcfroogle>lol i'm failing at typing today
(03:37:09)<rongtuleb>that's a valid concern
(03:37:41)<mcfroogle>might be hard to see on a small screen too if it were to be ported to android or IOS
(03:58:42)<randomnine>tametick: the Destroy button hasn't had a sound effect for as long as i've been working on CQ
(03:59:28)<randomnine>at least, i can't have a version that has one XD
(03:59:32)<randomnine>what sound should it play?
(03:59:57)<mcfroogle>how about the thunder sound during the intro?
(04:00:07)<mcfroogle>or something similar
(04:02:16)<tametick>randomnine: you can just play the pick up sounds if there isn't one for destroying an item
(04:04:31)<randomnine>kk
(04:08:34)<mcfroogle>so tametick. how is Auro going ?
(04:08:54)<tametick>pretty good. we got the first "vertical slice", which one of everything
(04:08:59)<tametick>1 enemy, 1 skill, etc
(04:09:57)<mcfroogle>thats guess it makes it much easier having 1 of each. guess then things can be copied and a few bits replaces and things
(04:20:12)<mcfroogle>any idea when you'll have a build to test
(06:30:06)<tametick>i'm hoping in a few weeks mcfroogle_ 
(06:30:24)<mcfroogle_>sounds good :-)
(06:51:18)<mcfroogle_>playing RC2 and still seems pretty clean. not seen any probelems and combat seems more balanced now
(07:07:26)<randomnine>awesome
(07:08:45)<mcfroogle_>:-)
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/29 +++
(01:20:34)<Nukm>love the cq ost btw
(01:20:36)<Nukm>so good
(04:59:48)<randomnine>whee
(05:00:04)<randomnine>another fun bug, attack/defence/life buffs from equipment weren't getting applied to combat
(06:52:25)<mcfroogle>Who here is enjoying the indieroyale bundle?
(06:52:38)<wl>Which game?
(06:53:42)<mcfroogle>theres a few: Cthuklhu saves the world, breath of death VII, Eurflorua, Runespell: Overture, and Really Big Sky
(06:54:07)<wl>Yes, but which one do you think is enjoyable?
(07:11:10)<mcfroogle>sorry for the delay. IRC didn't make a noise. Played Really big sky for a bit and it's pretty good. not usually my things. and now playing Eurflorua and seems pretty good. it's a nice sort of chill out game
(08:06:30)<Cthulhu32>thanks tametick
(08:06:45)<tametick>np
(08:07:35)<mcfroogle>how are you finding indieroyale tametick?
(08:07:55)<tametick>i bought one bundle there mcfroogle 
(08:08:01)<tametick>the 1st one 
(08:08:22)<mcfroogle>they've got a new one out
(08:08:31)<mcfroogle>seems pretty good
(08:08:54)<tametick>i am swamped with games atm
(08:08:59)<tametick>might pass it this time
(08:09:45)<mcfroogle>fair enough, understandable really
(08:10:00)<mcfroogle>what was in the bundle you got?
(08:13:42)<wl>A.R.E.S. Extinction Agenda, Gemini Rue, Sanctum, Nimbus
(08:14:36)<mcfroogle>sounds good :-)
(08:18:22)<tametick>i actually ended up not playing any  of these
(08:18:35)<tametick>due to too many games
(08:20:13)<wl>I already had Nimbus, I tried a bit of Sanctum, but did not really like it
(08:21:16)<mcfroogle>tametick: fair enough
(08:21:26)<mcfroogle>wl: also fair enough lol
(08:22:02)<mcfroogle>think Sanctum is for a certain type
(08:22:35)<wl>My main problem with Sanctum was just missing variety
(08:22:53)<wl>They have very few enemy types and most are basically the same
(08:22:57)<mcfroogle>oh fair enough. how long ago was that?
(08:23:12)<wl>Also the last patch introduced a rocket launcher which totally destroyed the balance
(08:23:53)<wl>We tried one game afterwards and it was so silly, we did 10-20k dps each without problems, while all towers together only came to 5k
(08:24:24)<mcfroogle>wow :-s very over powered
(08:25:12)<mcfroogle>one thing thats discurraged me from buying it is the fact it has Paid downloadable content. you shouldn't need to pay more money for a few extra things in a game
(08:25:15)<wl>A friend of mine really like Gemini Rue, but I am not a big fan of serious adventure games
(08:25:19)<mcfroogle>really puts me off games
(08:25:24)<wl>Yeah, especially the towers
(08:25:35)<wl>Nothign against maps, but towers oO
(08:26:01)<mcfroogle>oh yeah maps it's a bit more acceptable because it's sort of like buying a sequial
(08:26:40)<mcfroogle>but they even do if for weapons too :-s and i'm guessing the people that buy them have the advantage
(08:27:22)<wl>And as I've said, was missing the main fun factor due to just no variety, there was basically just 3 types of enemies, normal ground enemies, flying enemies and enemies that could only be damaged by shooting at the back
(08:27:50)<wl>I think there were 6 types alltogether, but there was nothing special about them
(08:28:05)<mcfroogle>oh yeah must get a little boring. i guess new maps improve on that a little but you really do need a wide varity
(08:28:07)<wl>And imho the enemy/tower variety is the most important thing in a td game
(08:28:19)<mcfroogle>yeah exsactly
(08:28:20)<wl>Different maps did not really help
(08:28:27)<mcfroogle>oh :-s
(08:28:47)<wl>I think the game can be fun for 1-3 matches, but after that, repetition just sets in
(08:28:54)<mcfroogle>yeah
(08:29:20)<mcfroogle>guessing when you add more players in co-op it gets a bit more fun but shouldn't need it
(08:29:34)<wl>I was always playing 3 player coop
(08:29:42)<mcfroogle>fair enough
(08:34:55)<mcfroogle>whats your steam ID wl?
(08:35:03)<mcfroogle>or what ever it's called
(08:39:24)<wl>I like to keep my friends list only to people I regularly play with
(08:40:00)<mcfroogle>fair enough
(08:41:04)<mcfroogle>what sort of games do you have?
(08:41:07)<wl>You say "fair enough" a lot ;)
(08:41:16)<wl>Pretty wide variety
(08:41:46)<wl>Focus on coop games and some indies
(08:43:34)<mcfroogle>lol i do don't i :-) and i think i mainly focus on indies. looking forward to Trine 2 though. thats going to be an amazing Co-op
(08:43:47)<wl>Yeah, looking forward to that, too :)
(08:43:56)<wl>Only 1.5 more weeks :)
(08:43:59)<mcfroogle>been playing alot of co-op minecraft and terraria actully
(08:44:47)<wl>I'm thinking of playing Terraria again after the patch
(08:45:16)<mcfroogle>yeah 1.1 should be good. could have a game if you wanted? don't think i can host the server though sadly :-s
(08:46:17)<wl>I could normally host, but my router is making problems lately and somehow Terraria is triggering it every time
(08:46:38)<wl>Really have to get a new one, but I keep forgetting
(08:47:22)<mcfroogle>ahh ok. i'll give you a game when you do, lol. sadly i don't host because i live at accomedation for uni and can't access the router to open the port :-s
(08:47:54)<wl>My router keeps crashing some times on huge fast traffic spikes
(08:48:10)<wl>And Terraria seems to trigger that with every world reload
(08:50:24)<mcfroogle>oh yeah
(08:50:35)<mcfroogle>have you seen the trailer for 1.1?
(08:51:10)<wl>Yes
(08:53:10)<mcfroogle>looking pretty good
(11:14:29)<randomnine>todo list back down to two items again ^_^
(11:14:55)<tametick>\o/
(11:15:35)<tametick>is it 6 & 7?
(11:17:08)<randomnine>eh?
(11:17:28)<tametick>in the todo list in the topic
(11:17:30)<randomnine>ohh - sorry
(11:17:35)<tametick>or are you not reffering to that?
(11:17:36)<randomnine>i meant my todo list for rc3
(11:17:49)<tametick>is it not the same as the one in the topic?
(11:18:18)<randomnine>i just make quick lists and revise them periodically, with all the detailed stuff like adding a "fullscreen" icon to the fullscreen button, etc
(11:18:43)<randomnine>looking at the todo list in the topic...
(11:18:49)<randomnine>i've never been able to reproduce 1
(11:18:55)<randomnine>2 is done now
(11:19:26)<randomnine>3 i think is fixed, but *appears* to happen because of the way monsters are teleported away from your respawn position when you die
(11:19:30)<tametick>yeah neither did i
(11:19:59)<randomnine>4 and 5 can happen any time, but you said to hold off on that (and i'm still adding strings to the file occasionally, heh)
(11:20:55)<randomnine>6 is minor, very rare and doesn't affect gameplay, and 7 is exploitable but awkward to fix
(11:21:23)<randomnine>the two items left on my local todo list are:
(11:21:51)<randomnine>- play a sound effect when destroying items from inventory
(11:22:12)<randomnine>- review monster stats + balance since stat buffs fix
(11:22:39)<tametick>sounds good
(11:23:52)<randomnine>so i reckon i'll knock through those two and have 1.2 rc3 ready late tomorrow afternoon
(11:24:12)<tametick>cool
(11:24:30)<randomnine>unless there's anything major wrong with that, we should be able to roll out 1.2 before the weekend
+++ The date has changed: 2011/11/30 +++
(12:43:32)<mcfroogle>Hey, how is everyone?
(07:15:35)<randomnine>1.2 rc3 at http://wootfu.com/ul/cq/cq-1_2_rc3.zip
(07:15:57)<randomnine>changes:
(07:16:22)<randomnine>- fullscreen toggle button on menu screen
(07:16:31)<randomnine>- you can now attack Charmed monsters
(07:16:43)<randomnine>- 'magic mirror' duplicates now have HP bars
(07:17:01)<randomnine>- inventory screen tweaked
(07:17:07)<randomnine>- character screen tweaked
(07:17:24)<randomnine>- added sound effect to Destroy button in inventory
(07:17:38)<randomnine>- fixed bug where 'attack', 'defence' and 'life' bugs weren't being applied
(07:18:14)<randomnine>- undid previous enemy stats nerf given how the above bugfix made the game easier
(07:20:44)<randomnine>- now takes 25% less XP to reach level 2
(07:21:09)<randomnine>- Fighter now starts with Leather Armor
(07:21:31)<randomnine>- reduced Kobold damage slightly
(07:29:43)<randomnine>tametick: i'm not too sure about the positioning/text of the Full Screen icon on the menu, any thoughts?
(07:58:56)<mcfroogle_>Hey how is everyone? and how is development going?
(10:23:23)<randomnine>mcfroogle_: link to 1.2 rc3 is in the topic, fixes a few things
(10:23:43)<mcfroogle_>oh yeah so it is :-)
(10:23:56)<mcfroogle_>whats been changed?
(10:26:12)<mcfroogle_>ok found a tiny thing. on the full screen button if you click the botom left hand courner of the square it doesn't make it full screen
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/01 +++
(10:41:59)<mcfrogole>Hey how is everyone?
(11:34:27)<randomnine>heya
(11:34:35)<randomnine>changelog for rc3 is at the bottom here: http://cardinalquest.com/cqbot/log.txt
(11:36:30)<mcfrogole>sounds good :-)
(11:37:12)<mcfrogole>oh yeah one thing i found out when testing it quickly last night is when clicking on the full screen button if you click on the bottem left hand side of the square it doesn't toggle it
(11:37:18)<mcfrogole>only a little thing
(11:43:28)<mcfrogole>lol just realised i spelt my name wrong while logging on, lol
(11:44:08)<randomnine>cool, i'll fix that
(11:54:01)<mcfrogole>fair enough :-) was just a little thing really
(07:13:36)<jday>Has the brief flash of items in the upper-left when they're first picked up been fixed?  I figure I should commit my current stuff, move to the one we're about to release, and make sure everything I know about is working perfectly.
(07:13:51)<jday>Including my little checklist of things I knew I broke at one point.
(07:19:48)<randomnine>yeah, it has
(07:21:43)<randomnine>it'd be pretty helpful if you could check over those issues though - i think we've got a good build now but you can never be 100% :D
(07:54:29)<jday>It'll be great to play the game in properly functioning form again, too.  After taking a few days' break, I was struck simultaneously by how much nicer most of my changes are than what was there, and how low a priority it really was to go about doing it.
(08:25:32)<randomnine>hehe
(08:25:51)<randomnine>tbh that inventory overhaul probably introduced more bugs than it fixed
(08:26:13)<randomnine>but it's done now and everything's pretty much sorted ^_^
(08:32:27)<mcfroogle>hey how is everyone. and hows dev. going?
(08:39:28)<mcfroogle>New terraria update :-o
(08:46:45)<jday>randomnine: Probably did, yeah.  It would have been much better if I hadn't thought the buffs change would be so easy -- or if I'd accounted for getting discouraged and slowing down a little bit before Thanksgiving -- and really gone through to finish it.
(08:47:29)<jday>I mean, of the bugs you've mentioned, I was either aware of most of them or thought they'd been corrected in the last version I pushed.  So the entire cost falls on this current set of changes of mine, not the previous set.
(08:48:42)<jday>Your presence on the project has been immensely encouraging in all respects.
(08:49:38)<randomnine>\o/
(08:50:16)<randomnine>provided there aren't any serious issues with rc3, we're good to put 1.2 out there shortly
(08:50:31)<randomnine>and we can really get started on Deluxe :D we've got a pretty solid base to push on from now
(08:53:49)<tametick>jday: so what were your changes?
(08:54:18)<tametick>or what is the current structure of the code and how is it different/better than before?
(08:54:38)<tametick>(just curious, this isn't meant as a critique or anything)
(08:54:53)<tametick>(and i also just want to stay up to date in case i need to do some changes myself)
(08:55:46)<jday>tametick: The stuff I slowed down on and haven't pushed takes the buffs and effects out of their hashes and puts them in a strongly typed class -- because it matches the way we're actually using them in the code.  As much as I like component systems, they're all-or-nothing.
(08:56:25)<jday>And it clears the ground for making the AI a little more aware of what it's casting and making different spell effect patterns.  (Teleport is just blink with a different targeting style.)
(08:57:25)<tametick>jday: that's fine. the hash system is a remnant from the js version
(08:57:31)<tametick>where it actually made sense, since js doesn't have types
(08:57:41)<tametick>it was all much more dynamic at the time
(08:58:09)<tametick>jday: some of the code in there was originally written in c, js or java. 
(08:58:55)<tametick>jday: did i tell you that the first version of cardinal quest actually had some code written by notch? he helped me out with some java2d rendering code (that pre-minecraft)
(08:59:04)<tametick>*that was
(09:08:35)<jday>This game has a stunningly long history.  I wasn't really aware of anything before the js version.
(09:11:26)<mcfroogle>:-o coding by notch???
(09:11:36)<mcfroogle>you should stick that in the credits
(09:18:04)<tametick>hehe
(09:18:11)<tametick>jday: well it was called cardinal quest 
(09:18:18)<tametick>but it wasn't much of a game
(09:18:27)<tametick>it was more of a lonely java based game engine
(09:18:34)<tametick>with very little game and a lot of generic code
(09:21:29)<mcfroogle>oh yeah not sure who it was too but i found something that's to help convert flash to HTML5 i thought it might be useful for making so the classic can be played online on a tablet like the ipad (no flash)
(09:24:55)<tametick>not fast enough
(09:25:05)<tametick>it already works on an ipad mcfroogle 
(09:25:09)<tametick>via adobe air
(09:25:20)<mcfroogle>oh yeah of course. get the 3 mixed up
(09:25:22)<tametick>the problem is resolution and performance 
(09:31:20)<mcfroogle>yeah. i remember seeing a html5 version of anouther rouge like and that seemed to be playable (ish) on and ipod touch
(09:31:42)<tametick>legends of yore?
(09:32:58)<mcfroogle>no, the one where all the enemies are stationary and you have to tacticly choise which enemies to fight
(09:33:11)<tametick>desktop dungeons?
(09:34:07)<tametick>that's even less resource intensive than LoY, as there are not only no animations but basically nothing moves except the player's sprite
(09:34:46)<tametick>in cq you need to redraw the whole screen basically every frame because the map and all actors tween (animate) every step
(09:35:05)<mcfroogle>ah yes thats the one :-)  and yeah didn't think ok that. overestemated html5
(09:35:29)<tametick>you can make html5 perform ok, just a lot of work
(09:35:39)<tametick>and doesn't really make sense to port it to html5 at all
(09:35:46)<tametick>it would a lot easier to just use air
(09:35:54)<mcfroogle>fair enough :-)
(09:36:13)<tametick>teh prototype was in html5
(09:36:22)<tametick>it was much more of a pain in the butt to work with
(09:37:39)<mcfroogle>oh fair enough. didn't realise. just out of curiousity which coding methods have you tried?
(09:38:03)<tametick>what do you mean?
(09:38:07)<tametick>it was just plain js
(09:38:45)<mcfroogle>fair enough. just ment have you tried things like c++ ect
(09:39:03)<tametick>no
(09:39:33)<tametick>i thought we were still talking about the html5 prototype
(09:43:52)<mcfroogle>ahh, no, which have you tried
(09:45:34)<tametick>java->js->haxe
(09:45:47)<tametick>plus some code from an earlier c game
(09:45:57)<tametick>mostly js & haxe tho
(09:46:32)<tametick>it;'s kinda hard to say what is a different game and what is a previous version of the same game
(09:47:07)<tametick>in a way you could say i've been working on it in various forms since 2004 or 2005
(09:47:34)<tametick>(and mostly not working on it during those years)
(09:51:30)<mcfroogle>yeah fair enough, i guess it's kind of like that if you change the head and the handle is it still the same axe.
(09:53:28)<tametick>i've heard that analogy with a boat but whatever you like better ;)
(10:10:31)<mcfroogle>lol it's be done many a time. i think a broom is quite a common one
(10:13:28)<mcfroogle>reminds me of an old comedy sketch :-) have you heard of the comedy: Only Fools and Horses
(11:18:38)<mcfroogle>so how is aura going?
(11:19:34)<tametick>auro
(11:19:41)<tametick>haven't worked on it much in the past few days
(11:19:54)<tametick>got distracted by 16 bit dos programming in c :p
(11:20:30)<tametick>cga, 8086 cpu & 640kb is all you need
(11:21:06)<mcfroogle>my netbook might be ok for that. lol
(11:21:29)<tametick>it's likely several million times more powerful :)
(11:21:38)<mcfroogle>lol yeah i know
(11:28:21)<mcfroogle>so what have you been doing on it?
(11:29:26)<tametick>just basic stuff. even printing colored text on the screen is really tedious and requires poking bios registers 
(11:30:34)<mcfroogle>fair enough. so guessing you running it on an emulator (forgot what their called for operating systyms)
(11:32:28)<tametick>dosbox
(11:32:33)<tametick>it's an emulator, yeah
(11:34:34)<mcfroogle>oh yeah. was thinking more the ones for linux and stuff. but i guess they're emulators too
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/02 +++
(07:56:41)<jday>A couple of minor bugs with popups.  One of them is very easy; the other is a little less obvious at the moment.  The less obvious one is that popups no longer show up when you target an enemy with the keyboard -- unless the mouse cursor is visible.
(08:35:16)<jday>I guess I'll have to shelve stuff to actually push -- I can't (as far as I can see) push just the one head, and I'm sure not merging and pushing that.  Tomorrow morning, then.
(05:43:52)<mcfroogle>Hey sorry haven't been on recently. The web client wasn't working
(05:46:12)<mcfroogle>Well still isn't
(07:35:19)<mcfroogle>hey, how is everone
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/03 +++
(06:17:45)<mcfroogle>hey hows 1.2 going? :-)
(06:34:16)<randomnine>heya
(06:34:32)<randomnine>just been waiting for people to try things out and for feedback to come in
(06:41:45)<mcfroogle>fair enough. well from what i've seen seems to be all well.
(06:47:24)<randomnine>excellent
(06:48:15)<randomnine>so far, i need to fix the sound/music/full screen button areas and make monster name popups show when you use the keyboard. shouldn't take long
(06:48:18)<randomnine>in fact i'll crack on with that now
(06:56:35)<mcfroogle>fair enough good luck with that :-)
(06:57:15)<mcfroogle>proberly sounds a bit weird but would like thank everyone whos worked on CQ. it's helped me get in to world of rougelikes :-)
(06:57:57)<randomnine>awesome :)
(06:58:08)<randomnine>tametick: should the fullscreen button only be on the standalone build?
(07:48:04)<randomnine>tametick: i think 1.2 is good to go
(07:48:24)<randomnine>latest version is in the repository, and there's a build of it in the topic
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/04 +++
(12:26:12)<randomnine>oh wait, you weren't here. haha
(12:26:17)<randomnine>tametick: i believe 1.2 is good to go
(12:26:40)<tametick>\o/
(12:26:45)<tametick>i'm going to sleep soon
(12:26:56)<tametick>remind me tomorrow if i don't release it?
(12:27:01)<randomnine>latest version i pushed to the repository is up to date and ready to go live
(12:27:01)<randomnine>ok!
(12:27:10)<tametick>also, did i give you write access to tametick.com to announce it?
(12:28:08)<tametick>do you have a blogger account?
(12:28:31)<randomnine>let me see
(12:29:03)<randomnine>yep, i have a google blogger account
(12:29:21)<randomnine>randomnine, email randomnine@wootfu.com
(12:29:31)<tametick>i emailed you an invite 
(12:29:37)<randomnine>magic
(01:47:13)<tametick>elo
(01:47:17)<tametick>randomnine: here?
(01:54:39)<tametick>i've just sent some emails to armor games, newgrounds and addictinggames telling them we're ready to give them site locked version of cq
(01:55:11)<tametick>the kong exclusivity expired on the 18th of november, i figured might as well wait to 1.2
(01:55:44)<tametick>these are likely to give us another nice boost to desktop sales (the original release of 1.0 on kong did)
(02:03:09)<mcfroogle>should i check if he's on steam?
(02:03:29)<tametick>nah it's fine
(02:04:18)<mcfroogle>fair enough :-)
(02:04:34)<mcfroogle>oh steam says he's "away" anyway
(05:29:46)<randomnine>heyo
(05:30:09)<randomnine>do you need me for smt?
(05:31:13)<randomnine>sorry, i have a friend round today ^^ everything's in the repository
(05:32:31)<randomnine>bbl - i'll pop in periodically so will be in touch
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/05 +++
(05:02:08)<tametick>anyone here on 64 bit linux?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/06 +++
(09:14:19)<randomnine>I've been thinking about where we could take CQ from here. I think I've got a fun idea which lets us really step up the scope of the game without too much work and position it as a much bigger game, rather than an expanded version of the same thing. If we can really sell it as something new, that means it'll be easier to get a new round of press attention and sales.
(09:15:24)<randomnine>What I've arrived at is something like "Cardinal Quest: The Pursuit of Asterion"
(09:16:01)<randomnine>It'd essentially be Deluxe, but with three chapters, the current game being the first. Each chapter would be about eight floors long; the second and third would finish with boss fights; and completing a chapter would unlock the next so you could start it any time.
(09:17:20)<randomnine>That way, play sessions remain around the same length, but we've trivially got a structure for a game that's officially three times as big. I think the content we have planned for Deluxe would support that.
(09:17:35)<randomnine>All we really need to add is some diversity in level generation/art and a couple of boss fights.
(09:18:21)<randomnine>You'd always start chapters as a low-level character with basic equipment, natch. It wouldn't carry over.
(09:20:32)<randomnine>Narratively, I'm thinking chapter 2 would be hunting down and killing Asterion, with a big reveal that he's been working for an evil god or similar the entire time. Then chapter 3 would be taking that bigger enemy down.
(09:21:07)<randomnine>You'd start chapter 2 as a level 3 character, and chapter 3 as a level 5 character; so you'd hit higher levels in each one. Also, the spells and items found in later chapters would be higher tier.
(09:41:03)<tametick>randomnine: why not just call it "cardinal quest 2"?
(09:41:13)<randomnine>do you think we could?
(09:41:19)<tametick>why not?
(09:41:26)<randomnine>my worry is that it'd share a lot of art and content with CQ classic
(09:41:40)<tametick>fallout 2 shared almost all art and content with fallout 1
(09:41:46)<tametick>as did doom 2 with doom 1
(09:41:48)<randomnine>you make a good case
(09:42:08)<randomnine>and if we're trying out different level generation algorithms, we can mix up chapter 1's level design
(09:42:18)<randomnine>in fact, we could go for an extended story which starts somewhere else
(09:42:20)<tametick>it would also give you a fresh slate to correct some of the more basic boneheaded errors i've made in the design
(09:42:26)<randomnine>so it's not narratively the same thing
(09:42:32)<tametick>sure
(09:42:41)<randomnine>would you still give everyone who bought CQ a free upgrade to CQ 2?
(09:42:59)<tametick>can use up whatever we could give anyone who got the game until today
(09:43:07)<randomnine>we could likely put the price up for new buyers
(09:43:14)<tametick>right
(09:43:30)<tametick>sorry i started writing one sentence and then continues with another
(09:43:30)<randomnine>and change the current deal to "preorder CQ2 and get a downloadable version of CQ for your desktop"
(09:43:37)<tametick>it should have been
(09:43:41)<tametick>we could give anyone who got the game until today
(09:44:25)<tametick>i am not actually bound by any contract or anything
(09:44:49)<tametick>but there are only a couple 1000s who actually bought the game
(09:45:08)<tametick>the potential is much bigger for a more substantial game
(09:45:20)<randomnine>anyone who bought it after you posted about giving them cq deluxe later is entitled to have that honoured
(09:45:28)<tametick>right
(09:45:50)<tametick>what i am saying is that i don't mind that much, it's not that many people
(09:45:54)<randomnine>cool
(09:46:01)<randomnine>i think we can definitely position this as something a fair bit bigger
(09:46:05)<randomnine>without much extra work even
(09:46:13)<randomnine>and that could straight up multiply sales
(09:46:15)<tametick>i think so too
(09:46:37)<tametick>need to think the pricing through a bit
(09:48:13)<randomnine>possibly $7-10
(09:48:24)<tametick>$5 for cq1, $10 for cq2, if you pre order cq2 now you get cq1 for free
(09:48:33)<randomnine>think lifetime sales/promotion - start high, run discount sales later
(09:48:42)<tametick>right
(09:48:46)<tametick>can reuse the same website
(09:49:08)<tametick>give an option to buy cq1 for $5 (change from the current $4.45)
(09:49:23)<tametick>and the option to buy cq2 for $10 and get cq1 for free NOW
(09:49:41)<tametick>otherwise if you wait until release you'll have to pay $5 again to get cq1
(09:50:16)<randomnine>i dunno - CQ1 is basically free now. i'm not sure it's worth seriously selling except as a value add
(09:50:32)<tametick>people are still buying it
(09:50:37)<randomnine>hmm
(09:50:43)<randomnine>then how about this:
(09:50:47)<tametick>the free version is embedded in a web page and has ads
(09:50:57)<randomnine>$7 for CQ1, a preorder for CQ2 and beta access
(09:51:04)<randomnine>when CQ2 comes out, $10 for both
(09:51:37)<tametick>i think there is no reason not to charge $10 for your first option now. cq2 would be big enough to justify it
(09:52:06)<tametick>we don't have to say what will be later, only that as a bonus for preordering cq2 now you get cq1 for free + beta accesss
(09:52:19)<randomnine>well, offering the preorder at a lower price than the game will sell for is a way to incentivise sales
(09:52:54)<tametick>yeah but i am not sure $7 is a much more attractive price than $10
(09:52:58)<randomnine>and i think bundling cq1 free with cq2 would be a really good value add/way to justify the price
(09:53:47)<tametick>right
(09:54:33)<randomnine>hell, we could give them a second free copy of cq1 to send to a friend as well
(09:54:54)<tametick>ok, we can word it this way. cq2 costs $10. pre order now and get it get it for 25% off plus a free copy of cq1
(09:55:05)<randomnine>sounds good
(09:55:21)<tametick>gotta walk the dog now
(09:55:27)<randomnine>in fact, when it's out, you could do something like:
(09:55:36)<randomnine>cq1 $5, cq2 $10, cq complete bundle $12
(09:55:46)<tametick>yeah
(09:55:51)<tametick>something of that sort
(09:56:06)<tametick>we can play with the prices a bit and see if it makes any difference 
(09:56:10)<randomnine>definitely
(09:56:57)<tametick>did you see this? http://positech.co.uk/cliffsblog/2011/01/11/the-business-of-indie-games-world-of-love-talk/
(09:57:29)<randomnine>yeah, a while ago. cliffski's a smart dude
(09:57:48)<tametick>he talks about pricing in the middle there
(09:58:02)<randomnine>i'll watch it
(09:58:15)<randomnine>there's definitely danger if you price stuff too low
(09:58:20)<tametick>how every one told him $22 is way to expensive, but then he dropped it to $10 and said nothing, and sales only increased a little bit
(09:58:27)<randomnine>mm
(09:58:31)<tametick>and he ended up making less money compared to $22
(09:58:41)<randomnine>conversely Valve tell *everyone* when they cut prices
(09:58:45)<randomnine>and they make like five times as much money
(09:58:52)<tametick>it's also about the value
(09:58:56)<wl>Btw: Make sure there is something vastly different in the 2nd and 3rd "run" in cq2
(09:58:57)<randomnine>yeah.
(09:59:08)<tametick>right, that's what he wanted to avoid because it will not be measuring the same thing
(09:59:26)<tametick>he wanted to measure the effects pricing have on regular sales
(09:59:37)<randomnine>mm.
(09:59:50)<tametick>btw you got all the new graphics right?
(09:59:53)<randomnine>i think you can't strictly look at it in a vacuum, since it will affect things other than conversion rates
(09:59:56)<tametick>from both artists 
(09:59:58)<randomnine>yeah, i've got them stored away in my email account
(10:00:05)<tametick>cool
(10:00:14)<tametick>i gotta go now for a little while, walking the dog etc
(10:00:22)<tametick>waking up properly 
(10:00:24)<randomnine>ok, laters :D
(10:00:26)<tametick>putting on some cloths 
(10:00:28)<tametick>you know
(10:00:45)<tametick>god working from home for so long is killing me slowly 
(10:00:50)<randomnine>hehe
(10:00:55)<tametick>i gotta get out of here somehow
(10:00:59)<randomnine>you need to get out of the house occasionally yeah
(10:01:19)<tametick>well i have a dog so i'm out at least twice a day
(10:01:26)<tametick>anyway later
(10:01:30)<tametick>good idea btw
(10:01:52)<randomnine>:D
(10:01:54)<tametick>i think cq is really just a *tad* below being a game that can be really good
(10:02:04)<tametick>it's on the verge of being complex enough to be interesting
(10:02:11)<tametick>all the base stuff is pretty much ok
(10:02:35)<tametick>the new potion changes you've made really improved it
(10:02:48)<tametick>generally making the game too hard to play without using up potions is the way to go
(10:03:03)<tametick>make sure players know you can just bump into things mindlessly and win
(10:03:09)<tametick>*can;t 
(10:03:11)<randomnine>yeah.
(10:04:00)<tametick>i think adding ranged monsters will improve it a lot too
(10:04:07)<tametick>i mean ranged other than having spells
(10:04:19)<tametick>maybe nethack style ranged that can only shoot in the cardinal directions
(10:04:23)<randomnine>potentially. hopefully it won't be too brutal
(10:04:25)<tametick>unlike the spells that can target anywhere
(10:04:27)<randomnine>hey, that's a cool idea
(10:04:41)<tametick>that way you can manipulate them into attacking other monsters
(10:04:50)<tametick>do you have a mac?
(10:04:57)<tametick>or an ithing?
(10:05:04)<randomnine>nope
(10:05:16)<tametick>100 rogues do the ranged combat + monsters attacking each other really well
(10:05:23)<tametick>anyway
(10:05:26)<tametick>dog wants out
(10:05:28)<tametick>laters
(10:05:35)<randomnine>cya :D
(11:34:36)<tametick>btw we should figure out what we want to do before i give armor and newgrounds 1.2, so that we can advertise it on those versions
(11:34:53)<tametick>which i wanted to do today, but i'm in no rush
(11:35:25)<tametick>also, i'd like either you or jday to write something about it on tametick.com, as a sort of passing the scepter kinda of thing
(11:35:35)<tametick>about 1.2, the future, etc
(11:35:48)<tametick>can also write something about yourself :)
(11:38:20)<randomnine>sure thing
(11:38:31)<randomnine>will have to co-ordinate that with jday when he's on
(11:40:21)<tametick>do you have any idea what stuff like this does? http://www.dcomsoft.com/
(11:40:29)<tametick>and it is worth using?
(11:41:09)<tametick>i think once we figure out the naming we can change that line at the top of the menu that only appears in the flash version
(11:41:24)<randomnine>we can always put out a new flash version, right?
(11:41:25)<tametick>from "get standalonme version" to "pre order cq2" or something
(11:41:39)<tametick>yeah but you get most of the hits in the first week or so
(11:41:39)<randomnine>i imagine we'll want to put a CQ2 demo when the time comes
(11:41:44)<randomnine>good point
(11:42:14)<randomnine>SWF protector type stuff effectively stops your game from being run on portals that run hacked versions, remove author links, etc
(11:43:10)<randomnine>it also stops people from trivially ripping all your image assets
(11:43:17)<tametick>ok
(11:43:29)<tametick>yeah might want to add that to the list of stuff to consider later
(11:43:34)<tametick>but not a huge priority atm
(11:43:46)<tametick>most of the plays come from the big ones anyway
(11:43:54)<randomnine>yeah
(02:45:08)<randomnine>base! set up in CB2
(02:45:14)<randomnine>no-one else here... time to crack on :D
(02:45:25)<randomnine>BUT FIRST: twitter
(03:45:15)<tametick>:)
(04:13:30)<randomnine>been working out a narrative... we can do some cool stuff with varied environments
(04:17:59)<randomnine>eg. we can start chapter 1 with a fight in the middle of a town, with civilians fleeing from hostile bandits
(04:20:39)<tametick>:)
(04:20:44)<tametick>sounds good
(04:20:54)<tametick>use something that won't be too hard to do graphics for
(04:21:03)<randomnine>for sure
(04:21:04)<tametick>like, no water and stuff
(04:21:07)<tametick>that requires edge tiles
(04:21:16)<randomnine>90% of this stuff is going to be rocks and so on
(04:21:23)<tametick>can;t just use 1 tile for everything like our current walls/grounds 
(04:21:27)<tametick>ok
(04:21:37)<tametick>i'm gonna send you some graphics i had done for a previous game 
(04:21:39)<randomnine>it'd be nice to have support for lava for some Hell floors in chapter 3
(04:21:42)<tametick>that i ended up not finishing
(04:21:51)<tametick>it's 32x32 but maybe you could use something from it 
(04:21:56)<randomnine>awesome
(04:22:08)<tametick>yeah it got lava and a bunch of otehr stuff
(04:23:13)<randomnine>ace
(04:24:20)<randomnine>here's what i have so far as an outline... it's three chapters, where there's a different protagonist in each and a fairly grim tone
(04:24:55)<randomnine>the start of the story sees Asterion invading a new land, with his minions sent out to wreck and pillage
(04:25:56)<randomnine>you're either a traveller through or inhabitant of (depending on class) a town that's attacked, and go from that to raiding the nearby occupied castle to take out Asterion's lieutenant
(04:26:07)<tametick>let's focus on 2 for now, don't hold anything back just for 3 :)
(04:26:14)<randomnine>oh no, i am focusing on 2
(04:26:27)<tametick>because we don't know for sure what will be so far into the future
(04:26:30)<tametick>cool
(04:26:36)<randomnine>this is the three chapters in CQ2
(04:26:42)<tametick>ah
(04:26:44)<tametick>i see
(04:26:59)<tametick>yeah we kinda have a good cliffhanger for the beginning of cq2
(04:27:02)<randomnine>the second chapter in 2 will be the most similar to CQ classic, and will see a lone adventurer travelling to Asterion's mountain fortress to kill him and free the whole land
(04:27:19)<tametick>one of the original possible names for the game was Asterion's Revenge 
(04:27:33)<tametick>that could be a subtitle to Cardinal Quest2
(04:27:37)<tametick>or to one of the chapters
(04:27:41)<randomnine>i liked it
(04:27:42)<randomnine>*like
(04:28:07)<tametick>so are we going 8 levels per chapter?
(04:28:11)<randomnine>anyway, once you kill Asterion at the end of chapter 2, it turns out that Asterion is backed by some great demon, the personification of domination and greed; the demon congratulates you on your victory and promises to return in a hundred years, once you're dead
(04:28:21)<tametick>and it's all in one game, right? like the chapters in doom or duke nukem
(04:28:24)<randomnine>yeah
(04:28:36)<tametick>cool :)
(04:28:38)<tametick>sounds good
(04:28:41)<randomnine>then chapter 3 will be an adventurer who's trained to be ready to jump into the portal the day it opens
(04:28:59)<randomnine>to dive into this otherworldly hell/dimensional planes and slay the demon in his own domain
(04:29:25)<randomnine>with slight plot variations for different classes, 'course :D
(04:29:43)<randomnine>eg. some may end up taking the demon's place and controlling his domain once he's dead...
(04:30:21)<tametick>i hope we;re not biting on more than we can chew on that one
(04:30:25)<tametick>it sounds pretty grand 
(04:30:31)<randomnine>hehe, that's the cool part
(04:30:37)<randomnine>it's literally 3 chapters of 8 levels each
(04:30:44)<tametick>right
(04:30:45)<randomnine>two new level generation algorithms
(04:30:47)<randomnine>a few more tiles
(04:30:49)<randomnine>a couple boss fights
(04:30:53)<tametick>level generation is not a problem
(04:30:59)<randomnine>and the start of chapter/end of chapter writeups, exactly like we have now
(04:31:07)<tametick>you saw the other unused generators i have in the source right?
(04:31:11)<randomnine>nope?
(04:31:15)<tametick>for forests and caves
(04:31:15)<randomnine>is there an organic cave one?
(04:31:18)<randomnine>brilliant
(04:31:24)<tametick>it's next to the BSP generator 
(04:31:27)<randomnine>that's two done already
(04:31:35)<tametick>well you gotta adapt them a little 
(04:31:39)<tametick>they are from detribus
(04:31:41)<tametick>but not much
(04:31:42)<randomnine>we'll just need a village/town generator for the first few levels, and that'll be eaaaasy
(04:31:49)<tametick>should work 99% out of the box
(04:32:00)<tametick>ah, i have one of these too
(04:32:03)<randomnine>haha
(04:32:05)<tametick>from fruits of the forest
(04:32:08)<randomnine>legend
(04:32:12)<randomnine>so, y'see
(04:32:14)<tametick>but need converting
(04:32:20)<randomnine>it sounds super epic, but it's not that much more work than Deluxe was going to be anyway
(04:32:26)<tametick>right
(04:32:31)<randomnine>which is great :D
(04:33:40)<tametick>updating indiecity now
(04:33:49)<tametick>that's the last of the desktop updates beside desura for windows
(04:34:01)<tametick>updated indievania, gameolith, bmt, fastspring
(04:34:41)<randomnine>ace
(04:38:32)<tametick>sent you an email now
(04:38:47)<tametick>with the assets from the cthulhu game
(04:38:53)<tametick>i don't even remember what i called it
(04:39:25)<tametick>you can see the java source code for my town generator here: http://yehieli.info/fotf/fotf.jar
(04:39:41)<randomnine>cool
(04:39:49)<tametick>might be easier to write your own than to port it, but then again all the other generators were ported from java too
(04:39:57)<randomnine>hehe
(04:40:05)<tametick>the caves and forests should still be in the cq source base
(04:40:09)<randomnine>ace
(04:40:09)<tametick>if not i'll dig em up
(04:40:33)<tametick>yep, src\generators\
(04:40:41)<tametick>CellularAutomata.hx is the cave
(04:40:44)<randomnine>so what do you think of this general direction? three structured chapters, six classes, some very simple story stuff, different level generation as you move through areas, boss fights, etc
(04:41:08)<tametick>sounds good :)
(04:42:20)<randomnine>it will mean a bit more art, honestly, but less than we have already
(04:42:59)<tametick>yeah it's not a problem
(04:43:12)<tametick>art isn't that expensive 
(04:43:26)<randomnine>ace
(04:46:05)<tametick>daaaaaamn
(04:46:22)<tametick>that teleporting kobold chief looks so hawt 
(04:46:29)<randomnine>haha
(04:47:30)<tametick>just packing up a new version for kong and then the work is mostly done on the distribution front 
(04:48:05)<randomnine>cool
(04:48:28)<randomnine>i will get on the armor games version asap
(04:48:46)<randomnine>looking into it now, in fact
(04:49:40)<tametick>just noticed a tiny issue
(04:49:57)<tametick>in the char selection screen, you see them without any weapons
(04:50:37)<tametick>i think before the fighter, thief & wizard were wielding a sword, dagger & staff respectively 
(04:50:41)<tametick>but i am not sure
(04:50:44)<randomnine>huh.
(04:51:15)<randomnine>I'll have a quick look.
(04:51:40)<wl>In 1.1c they did not hold anything
(04:53:04)<tametick>yeah might be
(04:53:10)<tametick>uploading 1.2 to kong now
(04:54:09)<randomnine>\o/
(04:57:44)<tametick>done
(04:59:12)<randomnine>awesome
(05:02:09)<randomnine>time to respond to comments and say that everything's fixed? :D
(05:02:48)<tametick>to a couple of them
(05:02:51)<tametick>too many :(
(05:02:57)<randomnine>haha
(05:03:05)<randomnine>just all the highest ranked ones
(05:03:12)<randomnine>there's only, like, 5 that show up at the top
(05:03:28)<randomnine>only three to respond to really
(05:05:15)<tametick>yeah i answered those i think
(05:05:18)<tametick>if you refresh
(05:06:35)<tametick> i think kong mighr show different comments depending if you are logged in or not
(05:06:39)<tametick>or to differernt users 
(05:06:56)<randomnine>those are the highest rated, which i think is fairly consistent
(05:07:01)<randomnine>that said, i don't have an account on there XD
(05:07:32)<tametick>do those have my answer now?
(05:07:50)<randomnine>not yet
(05:09:10)<tametick>oh well
(05:09:25)<tametick>i answered those that appear on top for me, seems like they are the top in score too
(05:09:37)<wl>I'm seeing three responses, some saying "fixing now", some saying "fixed"
(05:12:59)<tametick>randomnine: once you and/or jday will write your introductory 1.2 post on tametick.com i'll pimp it around via twitter et al 
(05:13:06)<tametick>can probably squeeze some PR from ti
(05:13:12)<randomnine>ah yeah, I see three 'fixed now's now
(05:13:55)<randomnine>what do you want from the blog post?
(05:14:17)<randomnine>just something saying that we're mostly taking over development and listing the new cool stuff in 1.2?
(05:14:27)<tametick>yeah, and plans for the future 
(05:14:34)<tametick>like what you were talking about here
(05:14:57)<randomnine>cool - we can be vague on that and let details slip once we've started building them in. lol
(05:14:59)<tametick>you can also mention what we talked before about changing from deluxe to cq 2, and everyone who got cq1 so far gets it for free
(05:15:15)<tametick>and from now on you'll need to preorder 2 for that
(05:15:19)<randomnine>OK
(05:15:20)<tametick>ok
(05:15:28)<tametick>your call, i'm fine with it either way
(05:15:47)<tametick>also
(05:15:48)<tametick>http://www.reddit.com/r/IndieGaming/comments/n1x4a/im_releasing_the_cardinal_quest_soundtrack_on/
(05:15:57)<tametick>feel free to comment/up vote/etc :)
(07:32:12)<tametick>randomnine: do you know this game? http://www.demonhunt.org/
(08:42:05)<randomnine>nope?
(09:06:39)<tametick>it's really good
(09:07:08)<tametick>was writing the author a list of about 20 things i think he needs to change/fix in his game earlier today :p it comes so close to being a really good game, and is fun to play, which just makes the (mostly easily fixable) flaws all the more glaring 
(09:36:06)<randomnine>haha. awesome
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/07 +++
(06:41:30)<mcfroogle>hey everyone :-) how's everything
(06:46:33)<mcfroogle>oh didn't realise you were from the uk randomnine
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/08 +++
(01:37:30)<mcfrogole>woops spelt my username wrong, lol. hows development going?
(04:07:44)<randomnine>tametick: I've put up a draft post on blogger.com about 1.2 and CQII
(04:10:04)<randomnine>can you view that? is there a way to make a draft public?
(04:40:01)<tametick>i can probably vew it randomnine 
(04:40:05)<tametick>i'll take a look
(04:40:36)<randomnine>k!
(04:40:56)<tametick>yeah i can see it
(04:42:34)<tametick>looking good :)
(04:43:21)<tametick>btw sometimes blogger messes up with the automatic html it generates 
(04:43:28)<tametick>doesn't play so well with the css
(04:44:03)<tametick>just need to publish it and take a look, there's a chance you'd need to edit the post in html view a bit
(04:44:27)<tametick>it likes to add all kinds of extraneous css that can mess things uo
(04:44:29)<tametick>*up
(05:17:49)<randomnine>hehe, ok
(05:18:31)<randomnine>am i right in guessing people who've bought cq will get emails about 1.2?
(05:50:09)<randomnine>and, have you seen jday on recently? wondering what his thoughts are on all this stuff
(06:04:25)<mcfroogle>hey how is everyone?
(06:06:20)<randomnine>heyo! pretty good
(06:06:55)<mcfroogle>good good, oh yeah started following you on twitter the other day :-) didn't know you were from the uk. what county?
(06:16:47)<randomnine>i'm in London atm
(06:16:58)<randomnine>well, technically Essex. >_>
(06:22:33)<mcfroogle>cool, i'm from Kent so next door, but not there at the moment. in up north for uni
(06:24:34)<randomnine>nifty
(06:24:53)<randomnine>i grew up in Somerset, in the south west, then went to university in Bristol, then went to work in Cambridge, now i've moved down here
(06:26:03)<tametick>randomnine: haven't seen him
(06:26:09)<tametick>randomnine: yeah i can send an email
(06:34:33)<mcfroogle>cool :-)
(06:34:43)<mcfroogle>brb, having a btreak during a lecture, lol
(06:39:18)<randomnine>cool
(06:41:11)<mcfroogle>oh found out we weren't going anywhere lol. it's too late for lectures :-s
(07:12:53)<mcfroogle>so how has CQ been going?
(07:16:31)<tametick>1.2 was released recently mcfroogle 
(08:17:24)<Herschel>hey
(08:26:09)<tametick>sup Herschel 
(08:26:51)<tametick>have you noticed our spontaneous 1drl challenge on #rgrd?
(08:37:56)<Herschel>yea, good idea :)
(08:54:22)<randomnine>1drl?
(08:54:47)<randomnine>haha, that's cute
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/09 +++
(12:57:35)<mcfroogle>hey again :-)
(06:52:19)<randomnine>tametick: heya
(06:52:24)<tametick>hi there
(06:52:32)<randomnine>i emailed jday, blog post is ready to go
(06:53:03)<tametick>cool
(06:53:09)<tametick>feel free to post it :)
(06:53:10)<randomnine>figured i'd wait til you were online :) shall i post it now?
(06:53:11)<randomnine>kk!
(06:53:16)<tametick>oh
(06:53:18)<tametick>as you wish
(06:53:32)<randomnine>done
(06:53:38)<tametick>i don;t know what's up with him, haven't seen him around for ages
(06:53:58)<randomnine>he hasn't been on for the past week, says he's been struggling with some real life stuff
(06:55:25)<randomnine>and should be back on shortly
(06:56:11)<tametick>oh ok
(09:38:50)<mcfroogle>hey hows development going?
(10:34:49)<randomnine>been kinda distracted all week... but i'm collating assets for CQII now and will be putting together portal builds of CQ classic probably over the weekend
(10:50:04)<mcfroogle>cool :-)
(10:50:44)<mcfroogle>haven't been able to get hold of the released 1.2 i brought CQ when it was on BDS Mart (or whatever it's called) and haven't rebrought it yet
(10:52:33)<randomnine>i imagine ido will sort that out
(11:03:17)<tametick>mcfroogle: BMT micro?
(11:03:28)<tametick>the bmt links were messed up
(11:03:40)<tametick>fixed now, but if you got the old links I'll get you new ones
(11:03:41)<mcfroogle>yeah, thats the one
(11:03:50)<mcfroogle>thank you :-)
(11:04:08)<tametick>i took down their servers when ~150k people tried to get CQ during the free day
(11:04:13)<tametick>within about 2 hours
(11:04:19)<tametick>they didn't like that
(11:04:28)<tametick>all those linked got invalidated afterward 
(11:04:34)<mcfroogle>yeah, i didn't get it when it was free. i brought it when it was over and there servers were back uo
(11:04:35)<tametick>*links
(11:04:41)<tametick>ah
(11:04:51)<tametick>i'll message you fixed links
(11:04:55)<mcfroogle>just their links become invalid after 30 days i belive
(11:04:56)<tametick>that will stay up to date
(11:05:03)<tametick>oh yeah i fixed that one too
(11:05:07)<tametick>now they stay vald
(11:05:13)<mcfroogle>oh cool :-)
(11:05:14)<tametick>i'll get you new links anyway
(11:05:17)<randomnine>tametick: do you have all the email addresses of the people who got CQ free?
(11:05:19)<mcfroogle>thank you
(11:05:26)<tametick>OS?
(11:05:45)<tametick>randomnine: i got the customer list from BMT, fastspring & indievania
(11:05:53)<tametick>i think desura doesn't give me their emails
(11:06:31)<randomnine>awesome
(11:17:53)<mcfroogle>so how's Aura going?
(11:40:45)<Musaab>indievania
(11:40:55)<Musaab>i bought mine from bmt micro
(11:41:04)<Musaab>but i ended up getting directed over to indievania
(11:41:13)<Musaab>i downloaded 1.2 from indievania
(11:41:22)<Musaab>after torturing Ido through twitter for a couple days
(11:41:24)<Musaab>thanks btw :)
(11:46:03)<tametick>mcfroogle: slowly...been hacking on a dos game in the past couple of days
(11:46:37)<tametick>Musaab: np. it's good that you mentioned it because i wouldn't have noticed otherwise
(11:46:55)<Musaab>it's all good
(11:47:00)<Musaab>i really enjoy the game
(11:47:09)<tametick>i'm glad you like it :)
(11:47:18)<mcfroogle>is a great game :-)
(11:47:28)<Musaab>one thing i wanted was a high score board
(11:47:33)<Musaab>but i see that's coming down the pike 
(11:47:35)<Musaab>so i'm pleased
(11:51:04)<randomnine>it'll be fun to have a nice record of horrible deaths when you should have been reaching for a health potion instead of chancing it
(11:55:28)<Musaab>definitely
(11:55:42)<Musaab>3 new classes too
(11:55:45)<Musaab>that's exciting
(11:57:20)<tametick>i'm off to bed now
(11:57:22)<tametick>see ya in ~7 hours
(11:57:27)<randomnine>tametick: quick question
(11:57:33)<tametick>gogogo
(11:57:37)<randomnine>what are the new classes meant to be? just looking at the sprites now
(11:57:49)<tametick>ranger, cleric & pugilist 
(11:58:01)<randomnine>a class that doesn't use weapons ought to be fun ^_^
(11:58:19)<tametick>that can be the pugilist 
(11:58:28)<randomnine>i assumed that's what he'd do
(11:58:29)<tametick>his fists of iron are his weapon
(11:58:32)<randomnine>we can give him a Disarm skill
(11:58:43)<tametick>:)
(11:58:44)<randomnine>so he can just beat the crap out of anything that wields a weapon
(11:58:50)<tametick>i'm about to fall asleep at the keyboard
(11:58:53)<randomnine>haha
(11:58:54)<randomnine>g'night!
(11:58:58)<tametick>and i only have 12.5 hours to go for the 1drl
(11:59:05)<randomnine>:D
(11:59:13)<tametick>so i want to wake up earlish tomorrow and bang on another 3-4 hours on it
(11:59:13)<randomnine>go go go
(11:59:34)<tametick>g
(11:59:35)<tametick>n
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/10 +++
(12:00:42)<Musaab>i love the music too
(12:00:48)<Musaab>excellent soundtrack
(12:00:59)<Musaab>doesnt' get annoying
(12:02:36)<mcfroogle>yeah is very good :-) for sale somewhere. not sure where but it is
(12:03:17)<mcfroogle>found it :-) http://wblackall.bandcamp.com/album/cardinal-quest-original-soundtrack
(12:16:44)<Musaab>:)
(12:29:44)<mcfroogle>track 5 is my favourate :-) not in the game. but was considered for it
(12:35:52)<randomnine>tee hee
(12:35:56)<randomnine>plotting fun things the monsters can do
(12:43:31)<randomnine>we have a bunch of new monster sprites. thinking up ways they can all be jerks
(02:00:34)<mcfroogle>sorry for the delay lol. been watching stuff on iplayer. what ideas have you got?
(02:06:58)<randomnine>vampire bats that summon other bats
(02:07:11)<randomnine>invisible monsters that only appear when they're next to you so they can attack; when you move away, they turn invisible again
(02:09:48)<randomnine>and it feels like each of the new classes could have a skill that targets certain types of enemies. so the Ranger gets Tame Beast, which is like a super-powerful Charm spell that only works on dumb enemies; the Pugilist gets Disarm, which only works to weaken enemies that use wielded weapons; and the Cleric gets Smite Demonic or similar, that only works on the more weird and hellish monsters
(02:09:58)<randomnine>i'm thinking of upping every class to getting two unique skills
(02:10:52)<randomnine>so they'll still have generally useful cool stuff like a ranged bow attack, an uppercut and healing respectively
(02:14:27)<randomnine>it might be overcomplicating things, but it'd make them different. we'll just have to try it to see if it makes them interesting
(02:30:09)<mcfroogle>sounds good :-)
(02:30:32)<mcfroogle>how about a selection of 2 of 5 class abilities when starting the game
(02:42:55)<randomnine>name 30 distinct and equally balanced class abilities across the six classes. go!
(02:43:27)<randomnine>:D
(02:43:34)<randomnine>we can experiment with more class differentiation though for sure
(02:45:05)<mcfroogle>lol yeah good point really
(02:45:24)<mcfroogle>dungeons of dreadmore does the abilities thing quite well but theres only sort of 1 class
(02:45:43)<randomnine>hmm... maybe we could have slightly randomised equipment/abilities
(02:46:04)<randomnine>so there might only be 2-4 starting abilities for each class, and you'd get 2 at random
(02:46:52)<randomnine>that'd give you a slightly different setup each time, though emphasising the same core skills
(02:48:12)<randomnine>anyway, i'm off to bed. 'night :D
(02:50:44)<mcfroogle>i don't know about that people would just restart till they got the ones they wanted and yeah, me to. good night
(10:58:47)<randomnine>yeah, so would i ^_^ but i don't know if that matters
(03:34:38)<mcfroogle>hey, how's people :-)
(10:25:25)<mcfroogle_>how is everyone?
(10:45:01)<tametick>howdy
(10:45:32)<tametick>did a lot of work on that dos game. it's so much fun & at the same time very frustrating to program for a 30 years old platform :)
(10:53:32)<mcfroogle_>yeah :-) i guess 1 advantage is it's cheap to do. well free to do :-)
(10:55:29)<tametick>developing for flash is also free :)
(10:55:36)<tametick>most development tools are free these days
(10:55:46)<tametick>but it's an interesting set of limitations
(10:56:22)<tametick>there is only so much you can do in 64kb of code & 64kb of data per module, and 640kb overall 
(10:57:16)<tametick>and also only so much an 8086 cpu at 4.77mhz can handle, and only so much you can represent in a 16 colors grid of 80x25 chars
(10:57:38)<tametick>these restrictions give you other freedoms
(10:58:26)<tametick>and make you keep things below a certain level of complexity (i had to ditch a lot of code because i couldn't get it to fit in memory without a stack overflow)
(11:05:06)<mcfroogle_>yeah i guess it is good in that sense.
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/13 +++
(12:22:13)<jday>Ok, I think I exist again.  I'm not totally certain, but it seems likely.
(12:23:27)<jday>My wife is no longer a conditional permanent resident and is now a permanent resident.  So that's pretty cool, and it's nice to have that behind us.
(10:36:43)<randomnine>jday: congrats!
(11:48:10)<Lohen>awesome jday
(11:57:31)<tametick>hey jday is back :)
(11:57:34)<tametick>how's it going?
(05:58:34)<jday>So in this transition to CQ II, do we totally drop all gain on level up except health, or do we just make it more class specific?
(06:00:07)<tametick>i think randomnine was thinking of dropping the hp bonus and replacing it with a different bonus
(06:00:11)<tametick>and retaining full heal
(06:00:30)<tametick>i would suggest going that route myself. hp bonus is boring 
(06:01:14)<jday>Funny; I think of hp as current hp by default, and hp bonus as heal.  Same page, then.
(06:03:10)<jday>Otherwise it's basically the same plan in a better package?
(06:05:27)<tametick>yeah
(06:05:35)<tametick>he wanted to add more content than i originally pl
(06:05:39)<tametick>anned for in deluxe
(06:05:49)<tametick>how's stuff at your end?
(06:05:55)<tametick>got everything sorted out?
(06:07:21)<tametick>i just started in my new office today (cheap shared office with 2 other guys)
(06:07:28)<tametick>it's working out really well :)
(06:07:30)<randomnine>heyo!
(06:07:35)<tametick>hi randomnine 
(06:08:43)<randomnine>i hadn't thought about changing how levelling up works at all ^_^
(06:08:48)<jday>I've got to run Jenny to school to drop off exams, but I'll be back shortly.  And yeah, most things are sorted out pretty well.
(06:08:57)<tametick>cool
(06:09:14)<tametick>i think dropping the maxhp bonus might have been jday's idea then
(06:09:51)<tametick>but it's pretty obviously the right way to go imo. should never have been there to begin with, doesn't add anything except for making balance harder
(06:14:40)<tametick>i'm gonna head home
(06:14:43)<tametick>see you guys later
(06:14:50)<tametick>good to have you back jday :)
(07:23:32)<randomnine>tametick: am I right in thinking the armor games version should be sitelocked?
(07:25:15)<randomnine>I'm replacing the RIP screen (which normally has Kong ads on it) with an Armor Games ad now
(07:41:16)<jday>So randomnine -- any big vision for the additional content, or is this mostly a throw-it-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks endeavor?
(07:42:02)<jday>I won't be making any more big refactoring attempts here; the first one was valuable, the second one could have been ok but was disastrous.  Common sense sinks in eventually.
(07:43:11)<randomnine>hehe
(07:43:44)<randomnine>i've been jotting down some plans. they're in the /cq2/ folder in the repository
(07:44:50)<randomnine>the gist of it is: we've got three new classes, Ranger, Pugilist and Cleric. so we've got to find fun things for them to do. nothing particularly concrete there yet, but I'm thinking of changing classes so that each class starts with 2 or 3 active skills randomly selected from a pool of maybe 3-6, some of which are class unique and some of which aren't
(07:45:29)<randomnine>and then certain classes will have passive abilities too. The Pugilist class won't use weapons. The Ranger class, I'm thinking, will have a pet dog. Both Thieves and Rangers will have special abilities regarding traps found in the levels, which will start off hidden.
(07:45:43)<randomnine>(spotting or dodging traps)
(07:46:26)<randomnine>stats changes: i'm thinking of changing how Defense works, and also adding +magic damage and %-to-resist-magic stats.
(07:46:50)<randomnine>new spells/items: very much just "try everything and ditch what doesn't work"
(07:47:39)<randomnine>new monsters: we have a range of new monsters already drawn up, I think we can use almost all of them, and again I've been working through a few ideas - nothing massive, but eg. Spectres which turn invisible whenever they move and only decloak to attack when they're next to you
(07:48:18)<randomnine>as for the real big picture stuff that separates this from CQ deluxe: it's actually not that much
(07:48:50)<randomnine>what i'm currently thinking is, the game will have three chapters. Each chapter will be about as long as CQ1 - around 8 floors full of monsters - and have a boss fight at the end
(07:49:17)<randomnine>the different chapters are themed differently, will have (partly) different monsters in
(07:49:27)<randomnine>complete chapter 1 with any character to unlock chapter 2, etc
(07:49:33)<jday>I've read those notes, and I agree.  I'll focus on exactly what I meant to focus on after my buffs change, then -- little AI tweaks to interact better with space and to let monsters cast buffing spells on each other.
(07:49:54)<randomnine>completing each chapter may also unlock at least one new character
(07:50:43)<randomnine>finally, I want to add high scores and achievements to incentivise repeatedly attacking chapters with different characters
(07:51:14)<jday>I don't really like unlocking, but I'm totally ok with it since I know most people do.  (And if we want to be just-a-little-bit-evil, we can offer chapters for pay for people who don't want to unlock them.)
(07:51:21)<randomnine>and possibly tie permanent bonuses to those achievements so people can 'grind' through chapters 1 and 2, and then chapter 3 is the really tough one.
(07:51:56)<randomnine>yeah, i'm not comfortable with locking content away behind stuff most people aren't meant to complete. so realistically chapters 1 and 2 will be a bit easier
(07:51:59)<randomnine>actually - there's a thought
(07:52:11)<randomnine>have a high difficulty version of each chapter unlocked when you've completed the game
(07:52:31)<randomnine>that'd make it worth revisiting 1 and 2.
(07:53:33)<randomnine>i'm sure we'll figure out a lot of cool stuff we can do as we go along
(07:55:01)<randomnine>anyways. time to eat, back later :)
(07:55:21)<jday>Yeah, the best approach is mostly to wing it and add whatever cool features we're capable of doing and excited to do.
(07:55:29)<jday>Have a good -- dinner, is it?
(08:00:40)<tametick>randomnine: yes
(08:00:50)<tametick>randomnine: armor doesn't want any ads iirc
(08:00:58)<tametick>just branding
(08:03:22)<tametick>jday: there isn't really anything absolutely crying for huge refactoring atm, is there?
(08:03:33)<jday>No.
(08:03:38)<tametick>other than the gui stuff i think the code base wasn't in that bad a shape
(08:04:03)<tametick>the gui stuff admittedly more than made up for that tho
(08:04:39)<jday>Most refactorish changes can be done in small steps as ordinary development at this point; for instance, we'll need to improve the way we deal with the sequence of dungeon levels, but seriously, what does that really involve?  It's small.
(08:05:02)<jday>AI for spells can be improved either by annotating spell definitions or by looking at what the spell does.  Again, not a big deal.
(08:06:56)<tametick>right
(08:07:18)<tametick>yeah i can't think of anything off the top of my head that is structurally totally unsound 
(08:07:25)<tametick>it's all relatively small changes 
(08:35:41)<jday>randomnine: Could have abilities for classes that get unlocked by finding them while playing with other classes -- something like that.
(08:57:57)<tametick>http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2011/12/request-for-votes-ascii-dreams.html
(09:59:36)<tametick>jday, randomnine: i've been getting a lot of very positive feedback about 1.2 
(09:59:38)<tametick>people really like it
(09:59:41)<tametick>:)
(10:00:01)<jday>o/
(10:06:37)<randomnine>sweet :D
(10:06:38)<randomnine>\o
(10:06:59)<randomnine>jday: i really like that - unlocking more starting options for classes, rather than powering them up or anything.
(10:07:46)<tametick>did you guys play the binding of isaac?
(10:08:00)<tametick>it has a really cool mechanic where the game become progressively richer the more you playu
(10:08:08)<randomnine>yeah?
(10:08:10)<tametick>so it doesn't overwhelm you at first
(10:08:19)<tametick>but it adds a little bit every playthrough 
(10:08:23)<randomnine>oo.
(10:08:29)<tametick>a new item, or a new boss
(10:08:31)<tametick>or a new character class
(10:08:39)<tametick>it ends up being a ton bigger by the end 
(10:08:42)<tametick>like
(10:08:48)<tametick>10x bigger than the first time you play it
(10:08:52)<tametick>maybe more
(10:15:41)<randomnine>that's pretty cool.
(10:19:42)<tametick>yes it's one of the things i like most about the game
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/14 +++
(12:41:49)<mcfroogle>Hey :-) hows everyone?
(02:39:27)<jday>A prequel chapter would be nice, too.  Something to do with defending Hallemot.
(02:40:06)<jday>Or maybe that could be a way to squeeze in a perfunctory tower defense deal.
(11:04:18)<randomnine>right
(11:04:20)<randomnine>armor games version is done
(11:05:36)<tametick>woot
(11:05:40)<randomnine>http://wootfu.com/ul/testbed/cq-armor/ is a *demo* of it and is sitelocked to wootfu.com
(11:05:50)<randomnine>i'm checking in the armorgames.com-locked version to the repository
(11:05:54)<tametick>going out to get some groceries, will check it out when i come back
(11:05:58)<randomnine>okay
(11:05:59)<tametick>cool
(11:06:08)<randomnine>i'm going out for the afternoon unfortunately so won't be back til this evening
(11:06:11)<tametick>demo as in only 3 levels?
(11:06:13)<randomnine>but everything's set
(11:06:14)<randomnine>oh, no
(11:06:19)<randomnine>it's the full thing
(11:06:22)<randomnine>but it's not the version they should use
(11:06:27)<tametick>ok
(11:06:27)<randomnine>because obviously that has to be locked to armorgames.com
(11:06:39)<tametick>i will show it to them to see if they approve
(11:06:41)<randomnine>the version on wootfu.com is identical, but it's locked to wootfu.com instead
(11:06:44)<randomnine>which means we can see it/show it off
(11:07:36)<randomnine>all the ads are stripped out
(11:07:41)<tametick>randomnine: could it be that when you pick up an item & open the inventory screen, the last picked up/equipped item is no longer auto selected in the description text?
(11:08:00)<tametick>it used to be that way before 1.2
(11:08:13)<randomnine>correct, that's changed
(11:08:16)<tametick>now it just says "mouse over items"
(11:08:24)<randomnine>i decided to keep it this way because otherwise you wouldn't see the mouse over prompt
(11:08:30)<tametick>oh ok
(11:08:47)<tametick>is there an armor games logo without a white bg?
(11:09:10)<randomnine>uhm
(11:09:14)<randomnine>that's the one they provided
(11:09:20)<randomnine>i removed the white BG for the 'on death' logo
(11:09:28)<tametick>ok
(11:09:31)<tametick>let's see what they say
(11:10:22)<randomnine>ok
(11:10:23)<tametick>looking good :)
(11:10:33)<randomnine>armorgames.com version is checked in and is in armor-haxe/bin/
(11:10:42)<randomnine>oh wait, no. it's still sending
(11:10:54)<randomnine>because it's a 17mb push. #_# hold on
(11:12:21)<tametick>o_O
(11:12:34)<tametick>i hope the swf isn't this big?
(11:12:48)<randomnine>no, it isn't
(11:12:48)<tametick>oh btw you know the cq sound track that whit is selling right?
(11:12:57)<randomnine>it's 8.5mb as before
(11:12:58)<randomnine>yep?
(11:13:10)<tametick>http://wblackall.bandcamp.com/album/cardinal-quest-original-soundtrack
(11:13:11)<randomnine>oh, just noticed something - they said "remove all 3rd party APIs" but this version still has playtomic tracking in
(11:13:28)<tametick>if you want to use any of the music from it feel free
(11:13:40)<randomnine>for cq2?
(11:13:49)<tametick>aye
(11:13:52)<randomnine>awesome
(11:14:02)<tametick>it has tons more music than what we now got
(11:15:04)<randomnine>okay, armor games version is in
(11:15:24)<randomnine>as said it still has playtomic tracking. up to you/them if that's an issue, should be very quick to fix
(11:15:49)<randomnine>kongregate API and ads are totally cut
(11:18:28)<tametick>cool
(11:18:44)<randomnine>had a look at the game submission, there's a whole bunch of promotional images and so on at different resolutions you need to set
(11:18:45)<tametick>don't think playtomic gives us much at this point
(10:04:11)<jday>So randomnine -- what do you think of using different equipment templates as a way of further differentiating classes?
(10:05:14)<jday>e.g., two rings for wizards, dual wielding for fighters, that kind of thing.  Also, are you up for allowing items with more profound abilities?  (ring of regen, cloak of invisibility, that kind of thing?)
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/15 +++
(02:01:20)<randomnine>jday: i'm not sure... dual wielding for fighters could be interesting but i think adds a lot of complexity for basically no extra gameplay depth
(02:01:35)<randomnine>more profound items: yes, that's awesome
(02:01:49)<randomnine>i think it'd be nice to have rare 'legendary' items, such that you might find one every level or three max
(02:02:20)<randomnine>ideally items so special that they define your playthrough somehow
(02:17:48)<jday>Yeah, having two of something was definitely more of a solution to having no distinction between classes; if they're distinguished already, it's less essential.  It could still be fun for one class, though.
(02:19:50)<jday>So I've got to verify that everything plays fine with tapping -- other than that, is there anything we have to do before doing our mobile releases?  And how shall we quarantine CQ 2 features for future releases -- do we actually want to fork, or just have a config setting for a bit, or no preference?
(02:20:32)<randomnine>honestly i think the best thing to do would be to fork a CQ classic repo at some point
(02:21:00)<randomnine>or a CQ 2 repo, i guess >_>
(09:47:48)<tametick>randomnine: could it be that cq switched to full screen mode every time you go to the main menu?
(09:50:18)<tametick>randomnine: just checked, after dying when pressing the main menu label it full screens
(09:53:39)<randomnine>oop.
(09:56:20)<tametick>no biggie :) it's the only bug report i got for 1.2 so far i think
(09:56:42)<tametick>so that's doing phenomenally well
(09:56:56)<randomnine>awesome :)
(09:58:29)<tametick>randomnine: could it be that it was auto removed from armor due to them detecting the use of playtomic?
(09:59:03)<randomnine>nope, it said it was submitted for review
(09:59:29)<tametick>m, ok
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/16 +++
(04:20:19)<randomnine>that full screen bug's an arse
(04:20:32)<randomnine>the only way to get back to the main menu is to press Esc, which also quits fullscreen.
(04:24:29)<tametick>oh
(04:24:34)<tametick>that's only with flash randomnine 
(04:24:40)<tametick>that doesn't happen with air
(04:24:58)<tametick>what i was talking about is that after you die and click the get back to main menu button
(04:25:01)<tametick>it full screens the cid
(04:25:06)<tametick>*screen
(04:25:14)<tametick>even if you were in windowed modfe
(04:25:23)<tametick>should be a super easy fix
(04:29:21)<randomnine>oh yeah, i've fixed that part already
(04:29:41)<randomnine>but it's still doing it, i guess 'cause i'm not running in Air
(04:29:45)<randomnine>anyway i'll check in that fix
(04:30:01)<tametick>yeah don't worry about the esc thing
(04:30:06)<tametick>it doesn't happen to players
(04:31:18)<randomnine>checked in and pushed
(04:32:24)<tametick>cool
(04:32:33)<randomnine>and we have that in-game update thing now
(04:32:36)<tametick>did you figure out what's up with armor?
(04:32:39)<randomnine>no
(04:32:40)<tametick>cool :)
(04:32:43)<tametick>ok
(04:33:06)<randomnine>i assume they're hosting the game on armorgames.com, right?
(04:33:12)<tametick>i think so
(04:33:16)<randomnine>even if the sitelock fails it should display some text
(04:33:45)<randomnine>as it does if you run it locally
(04:34:17)<tametick>can you test it on armor yourself? can you see the games you submitted?>
(04:34:32)<randomnine>o_o
(04:34:45)<randomnine>i just tried it in IE and it doesn't show the sitelock text
(04:35:30)<randomnine>nope, there's still nothing there about the submitted game
(04:35:39)<randomnine>and there was no way to preview the game after submitting it
(04:36:05)<tametick>so you think it's the site lock?
(04:36:14)<randomnine>i'm guessing they're running IE and it's hitting the site lock
(04:36:19)<randomnine>i'll try and figure out why the text isn't displaying in IE
(04:36:30)<randomnine>(it's probably not IE, more a specific Flash Player version)
(04:36:50)<tametick>well better would be figuring out why the sitelock is locking out armorgame.com :)
(04:37:03)<randomnine>it shouldn't be
(04:37:20)<randomnine>unless they're using the version that's locked to wootfu.com or something
(04:37:34)<tametick>it's what you've uploaded
(04:37:40)<tametick>you saw the screenshot right?
(04:37:42)<randomnine>yeah
(04:38:07)<randomnine>let me just verify i haven't done something stupid
(04:39:23)<randomnine>nope... that's the armorgames.com version for sure
(04:39:31)<tametick>you know safer would be to check if it contains "armorgames.com"
(04:39:38)<tametick>rather than ==
(04:39:40)<randomnine>that's what it does
(04:39:48)<randomnine>it'll match http://armorgames.com/blah/
(04:39:54)<randomnine>armorgames.com/blah/
(04:40:00)<randomnine>http://www.armorgames.com/blah/
(04:40:03)<randomnine>and www.armorgames.com/blah/
(04:40:24)<tametick>isn't there a string contains method tho?
(04:40:28)<randomnine>it looks like they host games in armorgames.com/files/ so that seemed like it'd be fine
(04:40:51)<randomnine>yeah, but then it'll work if hosted on http://armorgames.com.othersite.net/
(04:41:25)<tametick>it's not that important 
(04:41:41)<tametick>i'm fine if it doesn't lock out  http://armorgames.com.othersite.net/
(04:42:02)<randomnine>i wish i could run the actual uploaded game from their server
(04:42:14)<randomnine>at least newgrounds has preview
(04:42:39)<tametick>feel free to reply to that mail from daniel, i'm sure there is some way they could help 
(04:49:27)<randomnine>done
(04:50:05)<tametick>thanks
(04:50:08)<tametick>i'm heading out 
(04:50:13)<tametick>see ya later
(07:19:20)<randomnine>guh. so IE just doesn't support doing external interface calls like return window.location.href
(07:20:38)<randomnine>kinda suggests there's no actual way to site lock stuff properly in IE.
(07:21:03)<randomnine>well, it still has to be hosted on the armorgames.com server. can't imagine they'll let people embed their stuff
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/17 +++
(12:37:37)<mcfroogle>Hey, how is everyone?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/18 +++
(08:09:23)<mcfroogle>hey how's everyone?
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/19 +++
(08:16:59)<randomnine>newgrounds ad implemented after death. the preloader one's going to be a bit messier but i'll get it done
(08:17:25)<randomnine>tametick: do you have a newgrounds account? we'll need to get an API key for cardinal quest and also get it approved for ads
(08:17:39)<randomnine>iirc
(08:20:49)<tametick>cool
(08:20:52)<tametick>don't think i do
(08:20:54)<tametick>let me check
(08:25:10)<tametick>Herschel: are you there?
(08:27:49)<Herschel>yes
(08:29:37)<Herschel>what's up?
(08:30:40)<tametick>[20:51:20]	<randomnine>	tametick: do you have a newgrounds account? we'll need to get an API key for cardinal quest and also get it approved for ads
(08:30:51)<tametick>can we get those for my account "tametick"?
(08:40:16)<Herschel>yep
(08:40:19)<Herschel>you create them here:
(08:40:25)<Herschel>http://www.newgrounds.com/account/flashapi
(08:43:18)<tametick>thanks :) that all you needed right randomnine?
(08:50:54)<Herschel>if you are going to use medals or scoreboards, let me know, i will have to approve them after you creat them
(08:52:13)<tametick>yeah we can use gold coins for those
(08:52:29)<tametick>randomnine is in charge of it now, i've passed the cq torch 
(08:55:06)<Herschel>sure thing, feel free to ask me any questions, i know our documentation is a little spotty :)
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/20 +++
(02:53:56)<randomnine>newgrounds API is not playing nice when linked via xml2swf and still makes sam haxe error
(02:54:44)<randomnine>having a quick look at the sam haxe issue. if i can resolve that i'll rewrite the preloader and switch the whole thing over to a sam haxe build process
(02:55:22)<randomnine>otherwise i'll drop back to the older version of the API i used in Vigilance and start over
(03:24:26)<randomnine>okay, the latest version of the Newgrounds API appears to contain a DefineFont3 tag which doesn't comply with Adobe's file format spec
(03:25:08)<tametick>:(
(03:25:49)<randomnine>modifying sam haxe now
(03:26:11)<tametick>if it's an error on their side
(03:26:26)<tametick>Herschel might want to change it for the next game's sake
(03:27:42)<randomnine>-shrug- maybe this is just an undocumented part of the spec
(03:37:11)<tametick>i pinged daniel again about the swf you gave him
(03:37:21)<tametick>no response yet
(03:58:55)<randomnine>sam haxe with newgrounds api 3.0.9 appears to be go
(03:59:01)<randomnine>time to set up cq with a sam haxe build process
(03:59:17)<randomnine>(only for the newgrounds build)
(04:06:27)<tametick>uff
(04:06:36)<tametick>god i hate that stuff about targeting flash
(04:06:39)<tametick>especially with haxe
(04:06:46)<tametick>preloader bullshit
(04:14:54)<randomnine>hehe
(07:16:53)<randomnine>something, somewhere in the codebase, is stopping this whole thing from running. outright just blocking it. the only way i have to track it down is to comment out code and import statements
(07:17:36)<randomnine>if i just run my little preloader, or include some assets, it's fine. if i import anything from the game itself into that module, the SWF just displays a white screen
(07:18:02)<tametick>i know i had some issues with stuff that haxe was adding to base classes
(07:18:09)<tametick>like Array & String
(07:18:17)<tametick>with the first couple preloaders i tried to do
(07:18:25)<tametick>maybe try asking on #haxe at freenode
(07:19:44)<tametick>they helped me with a lot of wacky bugs, some of which turned out to be bugs in haxe or swfmlhx
(07:20:14)<randomnine>grr.
(07:20:59)<tametick>what was the reason again that you couldn't use my preloader?
(07:21:37)<randomnine>the newgrounds API doesn't work correctly when linked with xml2swf. the ads just don't display
(07:22:47)<randomnine>they work fine in cq.swf itself, but not when linked with a preloader.
(07:23:04)<tametick>strange
(07:23:44)<randomnine>and not in the preloader, either, i suspect because xml2swf strips out all non-bytecode stuff when importing a .swf with a DefineABC tag
(07:24:26)<randomnine>so the only way to get the ad assets in is to bundle them into a .swf linked in as binary data, then load and display that... which means the ads don't show.
(07:24:52)<jday>(The delay after typing . in FlashDevelop is down to about half a second now that this netbook has two gigs.  Hoorah!)
(07:26:29)<tametick>i just got a 3rd gig myself jday 
(07:26:43)<tametick>2->3 isn't as huge a deal as 1->2 but noticable 
(08:42:12)<randomnine>i've isolated it to code in cq.states.*
(08:42:26)<randomnine>by a process which can only be described as decoupling via chainsaw
(08:50:18)<randomnine>i moved all the code into a different directory, and i've been moving files back one by one or in small bunches, commenting out every line that gives a compile error
(08:50:29)<randomnine>testing to see if it still fails to run once linked
(08:51:02)<randomnine>or rather, testing to see if it does (since when it's just the one file, it's definitely okay; i've been adding other files slowly and verifying that they're okay in turn)
(08:51:18)<randomnine>and as i go, i've been reverting changes to older files which were to decouple them from the newer ones
(08:51:38)<randomnine>i'm now down to 200 odd lines in MainMenuState which are causing the problem
(08:54:32)<randomnine>static var homePageRequest:URLRequest = new URLRequest("http://www.tametick.com/");
(08:54:35)<randomnine>static var gamePageRequest:URLRequest = new URLRequest("http://www.cardinalquest.com/");
(08:54:39)<randomnine>^ apparently that's the problem
(08:55:16)<tametick>it doesn't like URLRequest's?
(08:55:28)<randomnine>presumably it's because they're declared static
(08:55:36)<tametick>oh
(08:55:38)<randomnine>and therefore will be getting instantiated when the module is loaded
(08:55:48)<randomnine>and that's why they can block the whole thing from running
(08:55:53)<tametick>silly meaningless memory saving measures :)
(08:56:00)<tametick>sorry
(08:56:00)<randomnine>should have figured that one out
(08:56:04)<randomnine>well, now i know what to look for :D
(08:56:20)<tametick>it was my folly that got you into this in the first place 
(08:56:31)<randomnine>nah
(08:56:35)<randomnine>there's no reason why that shouldn't be allowed
(08:57:21)<randomnine>presumably there's some sort of static init block in a .swf which sam haxe isn't reading/writing properly
(08:57:39)<tametick>ah yes
(08:57:48)<tametick>one of many issues with haxe & prelaoders
(09:16:18)<randomnine>getting there
(09:18:18)<jonathan3>speaking of URLs, reckon you'd get on alright with JSON responses in an API?
(09:18:19)<randomnine>annnnd i'm playing!
(09:18:37)<jonathan3>I just don't have the energy to do XML right now
(09:18:49)<randomnine>there appear to be a few corrupted assets, possibly paletted sprites
(09:19:02)<randomnine>what's this for?
(09:19:13)<jonathan3>Gameolith API
(09:20:02)<randomnine>honestly i've never used JSON, but hey, i'm pretty technical. how bad can it be
(09:20:39)<jonathan3>well it's a damn sight easier to deal with than XML in most programming languages, that's for sure
(09:20:46)<randomnine>well...
(09:21:01)<randomnine>looking at the spec
(09:21:14)<randomnine>it's not quite simple enough to not care about having a library available
(09:21:25)<jonathan3>oh, you'd want a library for it, definitely
(09:21:59)<randomnine>well, if you stuck to a subset of what's possible with strings and numbers, that might not be a big deal
(09:22:18)<randomnine>looks like there are libraries available though so why the hell not :D
(09:22:29)<jonathan3>that's practically all I use JSON for anyway, so you should be set :)
(09:22:46)<randomnine>no, i mean, strings and numbers are the bits where it gets complicated
(09:23:19)<jonathan3>oh right
(09:23:35)<jonathan3>one moment
(09:24:30)<randomnine>but honestly
(09:24:36)<randomnine>if the libraries are any good
(09:24:38)<randomnine>that doesn't matter
(09:25:20)<jonathan3>good
(09:30:13)<randomnine>yayyy, game's working but with a few corrupted images, newgrounds ads are working except they're throwing an exception and not playing sound until the ad's closed...
(09:30:23)<randomnine>that is CLOSE ENOUGH FOR TODAY
(09:49:53)<tametick>cool randomnine :)
(09:50:04)<tametick>also, using JSON should be pretty easy with haxe
(09:50:12)<tametick>maybe there is even some builtin support for it
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/21 +++
(10:55:15)<tametick>randomnine: it's up on armor :)
(11:37:32)<randomnine>i saw :)
(11:37:43)<randomnine>awesome
(03:34:02)<mcfroogle>Hey :-) how is everyone?
(04:53:16)<mcfroogle>Hey, how's aura going tametick?
(04:53:23)<tametick>auro
(04:53:28)<tametick>pretty good recently 
(04:53:49)<tametick>might do a closed alpha soon, and an open alpha shortly thereafter 
(05:14:30)<mcfroogle>oh cool, that would be good. and sorry for the name mix up. tired :-s lol
(05:24:59)<tametick>no worries :)
(06:11:56)<mcfroogle>when do you think the closed alpha will be release? (and could i have a little go? :-) )
(06:19:55)<tametick>don't know, maybe a few days from now to a week
(06:20:11)<tametick>there is not much to it atm
(06:20:18)<tametick>gtg now
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/22 +++
(06:40:20)<jday>Hmm.  I had actually changed the behavior of spells dragged to the backpack on purpose -- at the very least, I'd like it if they didn't discharge until a turn actually passes.  (Easy enough to change.)
(06:41:01)<jday>I can see how we wouldn't want to encourage players to equip spells and wait for them to charge and swap them out, but then again that's actually kind of cool, if they notice that it's possible.
(08:37:34)<jday>Weir		if (GameUI.instance.panels.currentPanel != GameUI.instance.panels.panelInventory) {
(08:37:46)<jday>Yes, I definitely wanted to paste just now.  >:|
(08:38:49)<jday>I got the logic working perfectly for tapping to swap in mobile mode, and then suddenly it all just started dragging again.
(08:45:45)<jday>Got it.
(08:52:09)<tametick>\o/
(08:53:55)<jday>One weird bug comes up still when you select an item and them leave inventory mode by going directly to the menu, but that won't be too hard.
(08:54:05)<jday>I'm officially back online as an actual dev.  :)
(08:54:20)<tametick>honestly i still don't really understand what's so bad about dragging 
(08:54:42)<tametick>there are several games that do that that i've played on my phones and it works fine
(08:55:14)<tametick>it sounds more like a pet peeve of konijn than anything else 
(08:56:29)<jday>Any particular recommendations for really cheap (and preferably underspecced) Android devices?  I will order one finally.
(08:56:48)<tametick>i got a zte blade
(08:57:09)<tametick>it was 99 pounds in england, which is <$150 
(08:57:37)<tametick>alternatively you can get a used iphone 3gs for probably around that much or less
(08:57:51)<tametick>(or an ipod touch 3g, they are equivalent to iphone 3gs)
(08:58:36)<tametick>i can get a 3gs here for 120 euros, you can probably get one for that much in USD and it's the lowest iphone we would want to support
(08:58:48)<tametick>it's about the same as a new low end android like my zte blade
(08:59:14)<tametick>if you do tho make sure it's a 3gs and not a 3g
(08:59:47)<tametick>also, i'm using nme for auro myself and it works quite well. but air would still be easier so if you can make that fast enough that will save you work
(09:00:16)<tametick>the new air versions are much faster than what konijn used at the time, so it should be pretty possible
(09:00:40)<tametick>also, you can now export apps with air that do not require the user to install air themselves 
(09:01:55)<jday>Weird that air should be getting so much better even while Adobe makes it seem like they're basically abandoning Flash.
(09:02:08)<tametick>they aren't 
(09:02:24)<tametick>they are abandoning mobile flash because they count on air repalcing it
(09:02:57)<tametick>anyway once you're that far ahead you can look at air "captive runtime"
(09:03:12)<tametick>which means creating apps independent of air
(09:04:42)<tametick>anyway, gotta walk the dogs now
(09:05:20)<jday>Yeah, I'm off to bed (as you will see in the log if you check it.)
(04:13:45)<randomnine>Herschel: i'm having this persistent problem with newgrounds ads where the sound doesn't play until the ad component is removed from the scene
(04:13:57)<randomnine>it raises "Error #2044: Unhandled IOErrorEvent:. text=Error #2124: Loaded file is an unknown type." when the ad finishes loading
(04:14:27)<randomnine>the video plays fine, the audio is delayed.
(04:14:38)<randomnine>any idea what might be raising that exception in the API?
(04:15:10)<randomnine>i'm guessing it's breaking out of the ad display code early which is why things are going funky
(04:23:14)<randomnine>also, is there any way to make sure an ad will only display in its little box and there's no way it can take over the entire screen? we have interstitial ads which really shouldn't take over
(06:14:21)<jday>(Good morning.)
(06:16:07)<randomnine>heya
(06:39:22)<randomnine>lol. just found a bug - 'Charm' is broken whenever a monster takes damage, not just when it's damage from the player
(06:40:53)<jday>The player can't even damage a charmed monster -- or has that been changed?
(06:41:05)<randomnine>yeah, that was changed for 1.2
(06:42:33)<jday>Good!  Naturally, I'm a little out of sync still.
(06:42:47)<randomnine>hehe
(06:43:00)<randomnine>yeah, there were maybe a half dozen minor gameplay tweaks that slipped in near the end just to smooth things out
(06:45:43)<jday>You went through a similar process to the one I went through initially -- my first week on cq was great, just splendid, as I made it so monsters could casts spells that didn't target the player and changed all kinds of other rules.  All of the breaking invisibility, breaking fear stuff, for instance, went in just before 1.1d (or was it c?)
(06:47:04)<randomnine>welp.
(06:47:30)<randomnine>it would have been nice if 1.2 had had more thorough testing before going live, but apparently there have been zero bug reports since it did
(06:47:57)<randomnine>...i'll fix that charm bug now, heh.
(06:48:03)<randomnine>i think the Newgrounds build is done now
(06:48:19)<randomnine>not 100% about how the ads are handled, but Newgrounds ads seem to work a different way every time they're displayed
(06:48:32)<randomnine>haven't had a video ad in a while so they might break horribly
(06:55:37)<tametick>did Herschel came back to you about the API stuff randomnine?
(06:55:55)<tametick>he is away on AIM too, might be afk i guess
(06:56:02)<randomnine>not yet
(06:56:18)<randomnine>i'll upload the current version as a preview once i've checked this bug's fixed
(06:56:35)<randomnine>then it'll be maybe 15 minutes work just tidying stuff up so the normal build works again
(06:56:45)<randomnine>and i'll check this whole horrible mess in :D
(06:57:10)<tametick>sounds good
(06:57:21)<tametick>yeah 1.2 was surprisingly stable
(06:57:35)<tametick>i was sure a lot more stuff would be broken seeing as you did quite a few major changes 
(06:57:55)<tametick>but there was actually a ton of testing done during its development, it was one of the longest updates
(06:58:15)<tametick>i think there 2 months between 1.1c and 1.2
(06:58:35)<randomnine>sounds about right
(06:58:49)<randomnine>i take QA quite seriously :D
(07:00:49)<tametick>you guys seen this? http://eight2empire.blogspot.com/
(07:00:58)<tametick>some really cool graphics over there 
(07:01:06)<tametick>too low res for cq but i really liked them :)
(07:04:41)<randomnine>yeah, looks good
(07:04:55)<randomnine>i love the character sprites. very expressive
(07:09:19)<jday>So for a kong android release -- does anything actually need to be done?
(07:09:30)<jday>They use their own swf player, don't they?
(07:21:58)<tametick>no clue
(07:22:07)<tametick>i am guessing it would be the same as the iphone
(07:22:25)<tametick>as we'd need good performance & mobile resolutions anyway
(07:22:48)<tametick>if you force it to landscape mode and do it at 1x zoom instead of the current 2x zoom
(07:22:54)<tametick>you will have to change very little jday 
(07:23:14)<tametick>480x320 vs 320x240
(07:23:23)<tametick>you'll have ~50% more map pixels
(07:23:33)<tametick>which mean you could use a greater precentage for the UI
(07:24:57)<jday>Given that Konijn was pretty happy with performance and Ruari has done so much to improve performance -- I mean, I'm going to have to tighten up some of the timing code, because as it stands the mobile version just trusts mobile devices to be slow enough to control the framerate, and I'm not big on that assessment, but it's not bad.
(07:25:27)<jday>And yeah, using a bit more for UI makes good sense.
(07:25:48)<tametick>yeah i'm talking only about resolutions here
(07:25:53)<tametick>konijn assumed ipad
(07:26:06)<tametick>which is the easiest to get started on, as its 1024x768
(07:26:19)<jday>Ah!
(07:26:57)<tametick>i'll bet you'll get better performance with a 3gs-level device at 480x320 than an ipad at 1024x768
(07:27:35)<tametick>auro is also 320x480 locked, looks fine on my 480x800 phone
(07:28:22)<tametick>although air would be the easiest as we've established 
(09:56:31)<randomnine>newgrounds build is done, except that video ads don't seem to work properly
(10:02:17)<jday>That is wholly magnificent!
(10:30:01)<tametick>jday, randomnine: we probably want to release cq1 & cq 2 on mobiles
(10:30:34)<tametick>so if possible maybe spit it so that you can use the current text files to create cq 1 & new text files for the new content for 2
(10:33:21)<tametick>as a bonus that will probably make it easier to do cq 3 too ;)
(10:57:28)<randomnine>i'd rather not run cq1 and cq2 off the same source code if possible. it'd make any UI changes a massive pain
(11:00:04)<tametick>ok
(11:00:29)<tametick>so i guess jday would fork it for cq1 mobile?
(11:00:44)<tametick>and then port over the changed for cq2 mobile?
(11:01:19)<randomnine>well, we can try to keep it on one repository for now
(11:01:54)<tametick>forking and merging is easy with mercurial
(11:01:59)<tametick>but it's your call
(11:02:08)<randomnine>but i think we'll end up forking cq2 at some point
(11:02:11)<tametick>evnetually they will have to fork if we want mobile cq1
(11:02:14)<tametick>ok
(11:02:22)<randomnine>we'll see :D
(11:02:33)<tametick>it won't have to be 100% identical to cq 1 1.2
(11:02:52)<tametick>like if it just uses the cq1 assets it's good enough
(11:05:24)<randomnine>true
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/23 +++
(02:11:56)<mcfroogle>Hey, how is everyone?
(02:19:48)<tametick>elo
(02:19:53)<tametick>pretty good
(02:21:21)<mcfroogle>good good :-)
(06:42:09)<tametick>hey guys
(06:42:42)<tametick>jday, randomnine: i forwarded you an email with attached rar file with some fonts and coloring suggestions from Keith (from dinofarms)
(06:42:52)<tametick>i think they are all spot on and should be really easy to change
(06:43:16)<tametick>it's only replacing 1 of the ttf files and changing some of the color values
(07:08:22)<jday>tametick: I'm for it.  I've been experimenting with getting resources embedded in a fresh project of my own, so it's not pure voodoo to me, then I'll be more useful with all that stuff.  As far as colors go, yeah, I don't feel the lack of a palette quite as much as I feel the use of pure saturation.
(07:43:08)<jday>I've got to admit I really dislike this idea of there being a class for every resource in the library -- it's ugly and spammy and unpleasant and doesn't line up at all with how I like to write software.  The old way (attach and attachMovie) looks much more pleasant.  A pity.
(08:09:10)<tametick>jday: you won't need to mess around with resources much
(08:09:25)<tametick>just replace the 1 of the currenet ttf files with another
(08:09:41)<tametick>and btw i agree about resources, the NME way of handling assets is much better
(08:09:57)<jday>I haven't had a look yet -- does it do a nice lookup sort of thing?
(08:10:14)<tametick>yeah you just give it the file name 
(08:11:13)<tametick>logo = new Bitmap (Assets.getBitmapData ("assets/nme.png"));
(08:11:33)<tametick>but i think it's one of those things that don't really matter
(08:11:56)<tametick>it's tedious to write but there isn't much more of it that would need to be written and it's dumb code (and therefor bot bug prone)
(08:12:01)<tametick>*not
(08:12:10)<tametick>i.e. i don't think it matters so much
(08:24:00)<tametick>you can try converting to nme, it also has a flash target
(08:24:21)<tametick>but it'll be a bunch of work
(08:24:28)<tametick>that will at the end not really do much good
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/25 +++
(02:05:35)<tametick>http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2011/12/request-for-votes-ascii-dreams.html
(02:05:37)<tametick>1 day left!
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/26 +++
(07:24:13)<jday>I was trying Kingdom Rush -- tower defence game -- and disco, much to my disappointment, that merely clicking _menu_  will destroy your progress.  I feel much better about cq's little foibles.
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/28 +++
(06:31:32)<tametick>cq prices have been raised to 5 $/??/???
(07:19:33)<tametick>jday: did you take a look into those colors and fonts?
(07:22:35)<jday>Yep!  They're a big improvement.  I've been trying to tone down colors a bit and all, but getting rid of 'vanilla' fonts completely is a huge help.  But no, I haven't switched the resources yet.  Today probably.
(07:23:08)<tametick>cool
(07:23:11)<tametick>no rush :)
(07:23:30)<tametick>we probably want randomnine to give newgrounds the version that's the same as 1.2 anyway
(07:23:57)<tametick>so we start ramping up on improvements for cq2/mobile/etc
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/29 +++
(10:34:00)<jday>Well, most of the crashing at smaller sizes is fixed now, at least.  A pretty good push for the evening.  We'll see what I can get through tomorrow.
(10:34:21)<jday>Most of it had to do with text elements with negative width and that kind of thing.
(10:44:30)<tametick>cool
(10:47:52)<tametick>randomnine: any news on the newgrounds front?
(11:02:10)<randomnine>heyo
(11:02:16)<randomnine>cracking on with that today :) shouldn't take long
(11:16:12)<tametick>cool
(11:16:17)<tametick>i'm flying out tonight
(11:16:30)<tametick>so i will be online less often at my parents' 
(11:16:38)<randomnine>ok
(12:17:46)<randomnine>tametick: newgrounds build is done, but there's this issue where video ads that have mute buttons are starting muted for some reason
(12:18:02)<randomnine>sent mike an email so we'll know what to do about that soon
(12:19:03)<tametick>cool
(12:19:09)<tametick>might be the way they are designed to work?
(12:19:19)<tametick>e.g. on steam videos are started muted by default
(12:22:51)<randomnine>the first one i reported he said was a bug with the ad
(12:22:59)<randomnine>if they're all doing it it's probably a bug in how they're being displayed
(12:23:22)<randomnine>there was one ad without a mute button at all and that played audio fine
(12:46:55)<tametick>if it's a bug on their end that's good news :)
(12:49:13)<randomnine>not necessarily, means we need it fixed before deploying this. heh
(12:49:32)<tametick>yeah but the balls in their hands then
+++ The date has changed: 2011/12/30 +++
(03:25:50)<mcfroogle>Hey everyone :-)
+++ The date has changed: 2012/01/01 +++
(07:12:26)<jday>I have a ping in #rgrd on "cq", because it's often useful.  But I also wind up getting pinged for "acquire" and such.  I should probably refine that.
(08:13:14)<jday>Someone has set up a wiki at http://cardinalquest.wikia.com/wiki/Cardinal_Quest_Wiki -- anyone feel like chipping in?
(01:15:27)<randomnine>neat
(01:17:52)<randomnine>might have a fiddle tomorrow